Sadly, Grade "F" for Civ IV: Colonization

[Reveilled]

It has been said that this mechanic is all in the manual, but for the life of me I can't find it. Could someone give me a page reference?

 

[Greencardman]

Yes, it's balanced by not producing massive amounts of bells unchecked.

Like everything in a strategy game, a concept has a positive and a negative.

Positives of producing bells:
- culture borders expand
- higher production output
- politics points towards FF's

Negatives of producing bells:
- King spends on REF

To me, two of the positives are extremely powerful (production output and politics points). This SHOULD be offset by a powerful negative in scale.

I think that approach still has its problems. Its too one sided, sort of A=B. I mean, yes, you do need a negative, but I think many people's point is that the negative becomes unbalanced. Not to mention the way it is implemented is not very fun, which is something people are trying to say but which you seem to not have very much sympathy for.

Here's the problem. Getting founding fathers is fun. Humans like getting stuff, having an advantage, its something that makes the game fun. But the current implementation completely blocks off that fun for most of the game. You're unneccessarily blocking off fun because you need a punishment for getting liberty bells, but that punishment becomes too servere to make the game any fun. The ONLY way to win is to beat the king's forces. That is a problem.

Therefore, I propose a simple solution, at least in terms of gameplay. If you increase the range of punishments available for the king, you can increase the punishments without making the game unwinnable. The player still gets punished for producing liberty bells, but not in a way that they can't win anymore. Not being able to win anymore = no fun, and causes people to stop playing.

So, some ideas for punishments available to the king:

He can recall troops or ships, such as merchantmen, for "help with a European campaign."

Recall colonists to work factories in Europe, (this is actually devastating) For example, the king could recall some or all armorers or blacksmith's for "increasing industrial output in preparation of a war in Europe"

The usual: tax increases, tade embargoes.

Replace the governer of a colony/revoke the royal charter: Causes rebel sentiment to drop as a Royal governer takes over the government, or exiles all elder statesmen.

The king increases aid to the indians, causing a relationship change. Or begins talks with European factions in case rebel sentiment gets out of control.


Those are just some ideas, I'm sure people can come up with more. But the fact is Dale, you have to admit that getting Founding fathers is a fun part of the game, and increasing the REF is not the only way to go about punishing a player for liberty bells.

 

[Elite_Dragoon]

im new to both civ and col series shall i buy this game?

 

[Jeckel]

Just have the King consider more things then just the number of Liberty Bells you make. He should check you number of soldiers, dragoons, cannons, ect. Most of all he should check his attitude. Shouldn't how prepared he is to fight you have something to do with how much of a threat you pose? 126 Soldiers, 82 Dragoons, 43 Artillery, and 41 Ships a little excessive against my 1 Dragoon and 1 Cannon?

And where is the King getting all this extra money to buy hundreds of units? Shouldn't his number of REF have something to do with the amount of money you give him, or atleast some logical limit on how many he could support?

 

[Lord Shadow]

I agree that the King should take more things into account than just your rebel sentiment. But...

And where is the King getting all this extra money to buy hundreds of units? Shouldn't his number of REF have something to do with the amount of money you give him, or atleast some logical limit on how many he could support?

...his resources are never in question. He has a large empire, considerably more manpower and a vast wealth, compared to your relatively tiny colony. Despite the size of the colonies, people have managed to amass a pretty large force, which in the end justifies the fact that the King has an even larger one.

I know there's a problem with the way he evaluates the potential rebels, but the solution needn't belong within the game universe, like giving him limited resources and such. There's a need for mechanics tweaking, not realistic backing for them.

 

[frosty2k]

Just to jump back to the original issue, I think the key issue here, is that an average player should have a fighting chance at winning the game on the easiest difficulty setting.

In Civ4, an experienced player could make lots of huge gameplay mistakes on the easiest setting and still win the game. Easy is essentially sandbox mode and allows you to test the validity of various strategies. Someone who has never even seen the game before should be able to play through on easiest and have a fair shake.

This does not occur here, as if one makes a big mistake like producing liberty bells early, they will be crushed into dust, even on the easiest setting. This is fine for hardcore players, but some of us don't necessarily want that level all the time. The hardcore may scoff at this and call me a nub, but the whole reason there are difficulty settings in the first place is to give you a choice between casual and hardcore.

This system is out of whack it seems and could be easily compensated for by capping the REF based on the chosen difficulty. For now I will enjoy playing with different production strategies and my own sense of winning, by defeating the other colonial powers.

 

[defjam]

well do you think firaxis is watching any of these posts??

 

[Padma]

well do you think firaxis is watching any of these posts??

I'll guarantee it.

 

[Hardin]

I never played the first Colonization so this is a new experience for me. I played three games on the second lowest difficulty and lost every time. Two times because of the time limit and the third because the REF was just too large. I bought the game on steam so I don't have the manual. I figured that the liberty bells were connected to the REF, but I knew that I need the bells to declare independence so I wasn't sure what to do.

 

[Reveilled]

I agree that the King should take more things into account than just your rebel sentiment. But...


...his resources are never in question. He has a large empire, considerably more manpower and a vast wealth, compared to your relatively tiny colony. Despite the size of the colonies, people have managed to amass a pretty large force, which in the end justifies the fact that the King has an even larger one.

I know there's a problem with the way he evaluates the potential rebels, but the solution needn't belong within the game universe, like giving him limited resources and such. There's a need for mechanics tweaking, not realistic backing for them.

I wonder about this, though. In all of the historical wars of independence, were the Regulars of the colonial armies ever outnumbered by the King's army? Even taking into account local royalists, and discounting local militia, were they ever outnumbered even 2:1?

Now, I'm not saying that the game should be like the Mexican War of Independence, where Mexico outnumbered Spain more than 4:1, but at least on lower difficulties, the idea of the colonials outnumbering the REF should not be a laughable one.

 

[Jeckel]

...his resources are never in question. He has a large empire, considerably more manpower and a vast wealth, compared to your relatively tiny colony. Despite the size of the colonies, people have managed to amass a pretty large force, which in the end justifies the fact that the King has an even larger one.

I know there's a problem with the way he evaluates the potential rebels, but the solution needn't belong within the game universe, like giving him limited resources and such. There's a need for mechanics tweaking, not realistic backing for them.

My point is that he shouldn't just get more units then you. He asks me enough times for money to extend his REF, colonial properties were fleased for vast amounts of money to support the Homeland's armies. But here, he just keeps adding forces and adding forces, with no limit in sight. Both unreallistic and unfun in my opinion.

You say they control large empires and more resources. I say the dozen or so colonies I have covering all of North America constitute more land and resources then the Homeland has access to.

But no matter how well I do, the King is ALWAYS doing better. That is a broken mechanic.

You can't say one thing if fluff and the other is tweaking. If your mechanics don't have a legit reason, ie fluff, then they arn't going to make sense in the game.

 

[TFVanguard]

It has been said that this mechanic is all in the manual, but for the life of me I can't find it. Could someone give me a page reference?

The printed manual never says this mechanic, ever. It does, however, explicitly say that generating liberty bells is your primary goal for the eventual War for Independence. (pg 60-62)

 

[Padma]

Moderator Action: I've cleaned up the most egregious examples of personal attacks in here. Discuss *the game*, not each other.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Franks]

- Easy way to name, select, activate/desactivate trade routes
- AI colonies needs better defense against human and natives. After a foreign power gets wiped (by human or natives), it would be nice if they could come back and found a colony somewhere else.
- More balanced REF/Difficulty scale (also being able to get FF early and still being able to win since FF is a very fun aspect)
- Make education useful if not primordial. (The more upgraded the building, the faster the teaching, other bonuses, etc)
- Some fixes to AI (treasures, etc). Also I don't understand why in my last game Holland founded a colony right in the middle of my 4 main colonies.
- Obviously, some changes to the UI. (see other posts)

Personally, those are my main concerns. If this get fixed, this game will be "perfect" from my point of view. I have faith Firaxis is gonna work on it, until then I'm gonna keep an eye on the mods section and get some experience with the game.

 

[beancounter]

Tying the REF size to bell production is just a bad game mechanic. I have read the manual, and it encourages you increase your rebel sentiment. The manual lists out all kinds of benefits. No mention that you will get crushed if you run liberty bells early. And I would have never known that unless I came into a game forum. You should not have to read strategy forums to have a chance to beat the low levels!!

 

[a2b1c3]

oops i posted under trade, i would like to say that this game and the game civ rev are both pretty buggy and have questionable play mechs i have noticed that there is a tendency for the people complaining to be slightly rude or at least asking for things outside of the scope of the game but at the same time i have seen some pretty shutting down talk from the devs and testers and others for both of these games. that said i think both games are broken but for the life of me i cant put down a civ game, civ 4 was much more polished when released however and could it be take 2 aquiring fraxis? It is sad and i think we will look back and say damn that ruined the franchise civ 4 warloards beyond sword civ rev civ 2 citys(celphone) civ col all in 3 years? quality does seemed to have droped slightly. But (another) they very well might patch this game 3 or 4 times and make a damn good game out of it. in conclusion ...... Good game but not up to the standards in my humble, and everyone should stop hating damn

EDIT i forgot that civ 3 kinda sucked to, heh i played that for 1 year

 

[Patch61]

Read what I said. What I described is ONE way to win. There are others.

I did read what you said. I also read what others have said. Regardless, I should not have to find a certain way to play the game in order to win when I'm following the supposed tutorial on the easiest setting. That's just ridiculous. On the easiest difficulty setting (and following the tutorial), it should be an absolute no-brainer that I would win. Period.

Also, where is the map editor and modding tools that the box said are included?

 

[Melinko]

Isn't to 'rate' a game by one aspect kinda short sided? I mean there is so much more that has been done then just the REF? It isn't difficult to see why the king is so hard (Look at Colonization I). Though I do have to kinda agree that the revolution thing is a bit... too much, if the worst thing is something that is easily moddable in XML then is it really that bad?

The glitches need to be fixed a little, and sure the game could be balanced a lot better (Like the idea Jeckel had on making the REF depend on a few more things other then bells, and the schools have got to be fixed heh). But give it a patch or two to get the bugs out, and it might just go from being a good game to a great one.

Dale- Thanks for the information about how to keep it down.. (Even if it was in the instructions... Really who reads those things heh ). But with all the bonuses the bells give you aren't you kinda hurting your own empire by just skipping it for X turns until you are ready to be mass producing soldiers? I am just curious as it seems a good strategy for the King, but if you see any hit to your own empire?

TFVanguard- Enjoy the game, change those XML variables if it is too hard for you. I am sure you can ask someone in the modding forum more specifics.. But there is so much more then just the end-game, and when I play if I lose.. I don't blame the game for bad game play I first look at my strategy and how I can change it to better play the game. Maybe with all the new information you have got it is time to change strategy, and come back with a better experience.

 

[TFVanguard]

Isn't to 'rate' a game by one aspect kinda short sided?

It's a game-killer, unfortunately, so it's not an issue that's possible to overlook. Everyone who plays the game to win will run into this issue, and it will ruin the game for them unless they've figured out (or saw how, as Dale did) to 'game the system'.

It's a major, key component of the game, and it's utterly broken. Because of that, the entire game is effectively nonplayable, and therefore the game gets an 'F'.

Edit: And, as I said, it's NOT a strategic issue, it's a mechanical issue. It's busted. Simple as that. The 'die hards' will defend it to the hilt, claiming that anyone else is a 'noob' or 'wronggaming' or what have you - but I strongly suspect that the same people would not find any fault in any aspect of the game what-so-ever.

 

[Lord Shadow]

The problem with just not producing liberty bells is that they're central to gameplay. They expand the borders of your settlements, and more importantly, are vital to get Founding Fathers to join you (since they are the essence of Political Points, which are needed for all FFs). Holding off the bell production till turn 200 means you'll most likely have to forsake around 70% of the Founding Fathers. And I'm not even getting into the lack of bell-induced efficiency bonuses.