SAM-01 Smoke and Mirrors

[Glare Seethe]

Which of the other cities were we planning for commerce? Elektrogorsk and Svetlograd were planned mainly as blocking towns . . . both have a lot of plains, so it might be tricky to make them commerce centers. It looks like Moscow is getting a few cottages, too, so it can pick up some slack.

Moscow and Karachev are the two main commerce cities and Stalingrad is a hybrid commerce/production town for now. I'm not sure either what other cities would be best cottaged. Svetlograd could be since it has some grasslands. No river, but oh well.

Oh, yeah, looking at the map . . . well, I'll have to look at the save again, but way out on the east coast, there's a spot with iron and wine that H.C. hasn't gotten yet. If he has no other source of iron (can't remember) we could kick our economy while it's down and snag that for denial purposes. The thought of a tender, iron-less Inca makes me giggle. Heh, that spot would be a decent production site if it had any food . . . . You could chain irrigation out there, but it'd be a pain. Ah, well, it's probably not worth settling, anyway.

I was looking at this spot myself at the beginning of my turnset, it would be so perfect to block Huayna there. I was thinking 1N of the iron, but then Vladimir discovered Machu Picchu (which we already knew was in that general area) revealing that Huayna's culture already has the cows. He also has iron hooked up in the north. It'd probably be best to just block the peninsula with St. Petersburg. It sucks that even though we are blocking him and ultimately we'll have more land, he still ends up with most of the grasslands while we have endless stretches of plains and tundra.

 

[Norvin_Green]

Well, if we get the AP built don't forget about the extra from AP religious buildings. I think we have two choices:

(1) Keep Confucianism as the dominant religion, adopt HR (as soon as we can for favorite civic with HC), steal techs from him, gear for the inevitable war with Napoleon (though we can stop the war if we control AP ) while we chip away at his cities.

or

(2) Try to spread Christianity to one rival and convert them to get Nappy and HC to dislike each other. The problem here is the long distance between them.

I'm sure there are others so please chime in.

 

[Whosit]

It sucks that even though we are blocking him and ultimately we'll have more land, he still ends up with most of the grasslands while we have endless stretches of plains and tundra.

But we are Russia! What else do we need?

Ok, so I've taken a brief look at the save, no more time to do more than that. We definitely will want to keep building cottages around Karachev, I think. Next player (can't remember who that is . . . radio?) should make sure any new citizens work a bit of commerce wherever they can so that we get in the black before 6 turns end. When Stalingrad grows, it should probably work the plains hill mine, yes?

Anyway, I think I found purpose for Svetlograd. We'll have to burn down the Barb town south of it (we were gonna do that anyway, but the sooner the better). They already built us a farm on the wheat! How kind. Anyway, I think Svetlograd can be a pretty decent hammer town. Working the hills and plains iron (with mines), it should have based hammers of 16. That's more than any of our other cities. And it should have the food resources to pull it off! (Not as great as I first thought, I misidentified a forested plains as a forested plains hill .) Even so, add a farm or two, and it can be an eastern production town.

Oh, and Elektrogorsk? This is really long-term, but suppose we don't cut down the forests? We could put the national park there and get a bunch of specialists by building forest preserves, right? And the irrigated rice (and, kinda, cows) can let us run a few "natural" specialists. This could be our (by "our" I mean" my") spy town. 8 free specialists, more if another forest grows. Yay!

Anyway, gotta go. I'll add more comments later if I come up with anything good. Oh! Right! Nappy has a settler party heading south, so he'll probably fill up "Blue Dot" space. Grr. We'll be bumping borders with him, anyway. There are horse escorts, so we should put some spearmen in our build queues, too.

Edit: Oh, right, AP. I think we should remain Confucian. We'll most likely have more pull in the AP than if we switch to Christianity. We can spread Christianity to H.C., anyway, and hope Nappy is willing to go through us to get to him. Probably unlikely, but possible. We should make sure to get Confucianism in all our towns to make sure we can control the elections, though.

 

[Norvin_Green]

Stalin:

Spoiler :

HC:

Spoiler :

Napoleon:

Spoiler :

Here's some info I've been meaning to post from the reference guide.

 

[Glare Seethe]

That's weird, Napoleon's up to +5 from religion but according to that chart his max modifier for that is +4.

Here are my thoughts on the AP. This assumes Huayna will run Confucianism as his state religion.

The AP in Confucianism:

Pros

- Less hammers to spend on missionaries to spread the religion.
- Less hammers to spend on religious buildings to gain the hammer bonus (i.e. we only have to build Confu buildings and not both - more on this at the bottom).
- Save anarchy turns by not having to switch to Christianity and then back.

Cons

- Guarantees Napoleon and Huayna, once he converts, have a much bigger say in AP decisions.
- Could end up losing the chair position to either Napoleon or Huayna.
- Napoleon and Huayna both receive hammers benefit from Confu buildings as well.

The AP in Christianity:

Pros

- Ensures we are the only candidate for AP chair.
- Possibly takes the AP out of the game so we don't have to worry about annoying votes.
- Gives us the power to cause a little mischief if we spread Christianity to Nappy and Huayna, but could backfire if they end up spreading it in all their cities.
- Napoleon and Huayna won't benefit from the hammer bonus as much, if at all, unless they bother to spread Christianity around.

Cons

- Requires at least two turns of anarchy when we switch in and out of Christianity.
- We have to build missionaries to spread the religion.
- We have to build Christian buildings on top of Confucianist buildings (more on this in a sec).
- Possibly takes the AP out of the game. I suppose this is either a pro or a con depending on how you look at it.

Now, my thinking here is that we are eventually going to want to build The Spiral Minaret and the University of Sankore as well. This is not at all a given, they are both not wonders that most people, myself included, often build. But if we go this away we have a full religious economy going. In this scenario, though, we get +2g and +2 beakers from our Confucianist buildings, but the +2 hammers from the Christian buildings (if the AP is Christian). Which means that to get the full effect of the RE we have to build twice the amount of temples / monasteries.

It'd be much more convenient to have the Confu buildings give us all of the benefits, but in this case Nappy and Huayna gain AP hammers as well.

If we don't build the SM or UoS then we can just as well spread Christianity everywhere and just build Christian buildings for the hammer bonus; no need to build Confu temples then (though we'd still want Confu to spread as much as possible for the shrine income).

The AP is a tricky wonder. I want to read up on this a bit more, it's very likely that I'm misinformed about how some of this works...

 

[Glare Seethe]

Well after thinking about it a little more I think a Confucianist AP is the way to go. If we were Spiritual I'd maybe say Christianity cause we'd get cheap temples and no anarchy, but as it is it's probably not worth it.

I suppose it's not too bad if Nappy and Huayna get the hammers as well. And for all we know Huayna might not even go Confucianist at all so maybe we'll still get a heathen to mess around with (though personally I hope he does - that's just more shrine income for us).

 

[Whosit]

Nice to see a hearty discussion. Hopefully we'll hear from radio and Xanthus soon (if you're out there, Xanthus, feel free to participate in discussions! I know you're there 'cuz you were on time for your turn set).

Anyway, I will present my set of "Five Turn Plans" (a bit of hyperbole) on how we can develop our empire.

Expand the Labor Force: We currently have 5 workers and 9 cities. This will not do. Although a 1-to-1 worker/city ratio is traditional (as far as I know), I think a 1.5-to-1 ratio would be better. At 9 cities, this means 13-14 workers. However, we can ignore Novosibirsk and Archangel from this equation because they are tundra bound and have just about been improved as much as is worth it. So we could instead build 10-11 workers for 7 cities.

I recommend this higher ratio of workers for the following reasons: Our economy is in the pits and the sooner we improve our land the sooner we'll dig ourselves out. More workers means that we can better afford to double up on projects; two workers building cottages at Karachev can erect them twice as fast and improve our commerce that much more quickly. Generally, I think it is better to pair workers who are worker near the same city than having them perform separate tasks. More workers also means that we can spare a worker or two for distant cities or to construct roads to connect them. And cities with hammer potential like Magnitogorsk and Svetlograd will reach their potential that much earlier.

We may run out of things for the workers to do eventually, but we will be adding more cities eventually, so that's less workers to train later, and much later we'll be able to lay rails more quickly.

Build Orders: In general, land-locked towns should first build a granary (they're already on that) and then a courthouse, followed by a barracks if they have good hammers and workers if not. Why a courthouse? Well, they will cut maintenance, which we desperately need to control, as well as add to our espionage points. I think that we need as much intelligence on Napoleon and Huayna Capac as we can get. Spies may aid our war effort, as well. Seaside towns should probably add a lighthouse after the granary if they are going to rely on seafood, and then work boats to connect water-based food resources.

I estimate that we may save roughly 19 gold by putting courthouses in all our town (we currently have none). Since this is going to be a long post anyway, I'm going to suggest what each city should build.

Stalingrad: Well, it's going to be tied up for awhile with the Apostolic Palace. A worker is marked to go to the capital and chop down some trees to speed it up. Stalingrad grows in 3 turns; the next citizen should work the plains hill mine, subsequent citizens should probably work plains forests until the A.P. is completed. Afterwards, Stalingrad should probably construct military units, but that's so far down the line that I can't say for certain.

Moscow: Is currently building a courthouse. It should be allowed to finish (whipping is risky as we may hurt our economy by losing the citizens). Follow with a worker and then another worker. It can then focus on military builds. When the city grows, work the copper mine--we can feed another mine, so the spare grassland hill should be mined to increase output which will speed up worker and unit production.

Novosibirsk: Is currently building a courthouse. Follow with a Confucian Missionary. It's so low on hammers that I can't think of much better. The missionary can be used to convert H.C. (if he hasn't already done so) or convert one of our towns that hasn't been auto-converted. Work all sea tiles before working the ice-marble.

Karachev: Is currently building a work boat for another town. Follow with a worker followed by a Confucian Temple. We'll benefit more by having the worker first. The new worker can help build cottages and such. The temple will increase the happy cap so we can work more cottages.

Magnitogorsk: Is currently building a barracks. Follow with a courthouse followed by military units. It's hills should be mined ASAP and the one riverside forest should be chopped down to build a farm. Chop to build the courthouse!

Archangel: Is currently building a granary. Follow with a lighthouse followed by a courthouse. Once the silver hill is mined, send the worker to improve Magnitogorsk. Do not build any more roads near Archangel for the time being.

Mezhdurechensk: Is currently building a granary. Follow with a worker followed by a (second worker and then a) [/b]lighthouse[/b] and then a courthouse. By the time the granary is finished, the rice farm should be finished and Karachev's work boat should have arrived to hook up the fish, providing enough food to push a worker out quickly. (Edit: I see we already have a work boat up there, so both the fish and the clams can be hooked up for quick worker training.)

Elektrogorsk: Is currently building a granary. Follow with a courthouse. I do not think this city will see enough terrain improvements to make it economical to push a worker out in the near future, but I may be wrong. I recommend retaining the forests. More on this later.

Svetlograd: Is currently building a granary. Follow with a worker, then a courthouse and barracks. This city has a lot of potential and I'd like to see it get there soon.

As soon as possible, I'd like to divert an axeman/swordsman (at least two units) to burn down Olmec. Aside from removing the taint on St. Pete's grave (claiming Heracles Hill is not feasible in the near future), it will allow Svetlograd to work the wheat. When the city builds a worker (I don't think we can afford to send an existing worker east) it should chop and mine the forested plains hill (to speed up courthouse)--pasture the grassland sheep--mine the iron plains--mine the bare plains hill-chop and mine the forested grassland hill (hopefully the chop will go to something useful). That should bring the town up to a decent production potential. I would then use the worker to build a direct land route to Stalingrad, allowing Svetlograd to build military units and send them west to reinforce. I'd recommend mounted units due to the distance, but that's so far in the future that it doesn't require much discussion yet.

Improve Commerce: We need to beeline Currency. And by "beeline" I mean "crawl at an agonizing pace to." Karachev is our primary lifeline at the moment. Here is what I think should be done there:

Karachev grows in 2 turns. The new citizen should work the coast tile for the extra 2 commerce. This should stop our bleeding unless our expenses increase (and they will). Once the cottage is built (in 6 turns, I believe) move a citizen off of the rice and onto the cottage. Why leave a citizen on the 1-food coast? Commerce. We can still grow by moving off the rice but we get the extra commerce from the cottage. We always need at least 1 worker building cottages. I'd divert a second worker to pair with the first at the earliest opportunity.

It may behoove us to spread Christianity to Karachev so that we can build a second temple and raise the happy cap further. We may be able to work 2-3 more cottages with current happiness levels.

Archangel may alleviate some of our pains, as well, once it can work the furs and (in 7 turns) the silver mine. That will add a total of 9 commerce to our income.

I don't see any other great places to boost commerce. Mezhdurechensk is destined to be a GP farm, but it currently has no specialist buildings and no irrigation, so we could conceivably build cottages up there until we can farm them over.

Enhance Learning: We will also want to build libraries, eventually, but it's certainly not worth it now except, perhaps, up north where we can run specialists. Marketplaces will be critical once currency is in, most importantly in Stalingrad, Moscow, and Karachev. We could slot in a library in Mehz instead of courthouse in order to run a couple of scientists which should really help our research at this point.

Sway the Unfaithful: Kind of my opinion on our religious plans. The info from Norvin on our neighbors weighed in on this, as well. First off, we want Confucianism to spread in our own cities. It's done so at a fair pace on its own so far and I don't think we can spare the hammers for missionaries just yet. But every new conversion is another gold piece in the bank.

I do not think that it is worth converting H.C. to Christianity. If the info on Nappy and H.C. is accurate, we are more likely to create an enemy to our east than foment discord between our neighbors. According to that data, Nappy doesn't care much if someone is of a different religion, while H.C. does. I also didn't realize that the Inca are aggressive. I think Nappy will gun for us no matter what, but we may be able to cultivate an ally to our east (probably no good for military assistance, but hopefully it will at least provide a safe eastern border).

I also think the Apostolic Palace should be Confucian. Yes, Nappy and H.C. may get more say and there is the risk that they could get seated instead of us, but if we keep up decent relations we may be able to get the support of whoever isn't up for election. Also, if we spread Confucianism to all our cities and keep our population up, we should have a decent shot at controlling elections. The extra hammers and etc. will also help.

That's all I can think of for now. I've been giving it some thought all morning and I'll add more if I remember/think of it. I'm mostly concerned with our build plans, and I'll look over what I've wrote and tweak it if I think of anything better, but I strongly urge us to focus on infrastructure and worker construction for the immediate future. The final "Five Turn Plan" is, of course, Improve and Increase Our Military. But we are already paying for units and we are going to bankrupt ourselves supporting an army unless we improve our finances. We do need to beef up our armed forces to try and keep Napoleon at bay, but we can probably only afford to put a couple towns on military duty for the time being.

Edit: Oh, and where did you get that leader info, Norvin? I can't track it down.

 

[radiofreestl]

Got it. Can't look at the save atm, but I plan to play in about 4 hours (feel free to keep talking till then), as I'm pretty busy and this will likely be the only window I'll have for the next couple of days. Hopefully this is okay, as there's already been a lot of discussion and the primary goal of improving our econ is obvious.

I'm in the Confu AP camp, so if you want it Christian, make your case soon.

 

[Glare Seethe]

Good post, Whosit. Definitely agree with more workers, we have a lot of tiles to improve and they won't run out of things to do anywhere in the near future.

In general, land-locked towns should first build a granary (they're already on that) and then a courthouse.

Agreed.

Seaside towns should probably add a lighthouse after the granary if they are going to rely on seafood, and then work boats to connect water-based food resources.

I think we have (or about to have) all the workboats we need at the moment, but generally building boats first is better than granary / lighthouse cause you can whip the infrastructure once you've got a food tile to easily grow back. But I agree that otherwise, Granary > Lighthouse > Courthouse should be the build order for coastal cities.

Stalingrad: Well, it's going to be tied up for awhile with the Apostolic Palace. A worker is marked to go to the capital and chop down some trees to speed it up. Stalingrad grows in 3 turns; the next citizen should work the plains hill mine, subsequent citizens should probably work plains forests until the A.P. is completed. Afterwards, Stalingrad should probably construct military units, but that's so far down the line that I can't say for certain.

It'd be nice to have more cottages in Stalingrad, too. After those grassland forests are chopped for the AP maybe the worker should lay down cottages on them. This city has a high happiness cap and we should make use of it. It also lacks food so slow-growing it while working cottages makes sense.

Before the worker goes back to Stalingrad, though, he should finish hooking up Elektrogorsk to our trade network. Only then turn back to chop the AP.

Moscow: Is currently building a courthouse. It should be allowed to finish (whipping is risky as we may hurt our economy by losing the citizens). Follow with a worker and then another worker. It can then focus on military builds. When the city grows, work the copper mine--we can feed another mine, so the spare grassland hill should be mined to increase output which will speed up worker and unit production.

Agreed with all of this, except we should slot in a Market once Currency is in. But using it as a worker pump while growing cottages is a sound plan.

Novosibirsk: Is currently building a courthouse. Follow with a Confucian Missionary. It's so low on hammers that I can't think of much better. The missionary can be used to convert H.C. (if he hasn't already done so) or convert one of our towns that hasn't been auto-converted. Work all sea tiles before working the ice-marble.

Maybe a library / market after the courthouse to make more efficient use of the silver mine? I dunno if it's worth it. Actually how about building a wonder here? I think Chichen Itza and The Hagia Sophia are both available. I don't expect to get either one but we could certainly use the gold.

Karachev: Is currently building a work boat for another town. Follow with a worker followed by a Confucian Temple. We'll benefit more by having the worker first. The new worker can help build cottages and such. The temple will increase the happy cap so we can work more cottages.

Hmm, I'd build a library before a temple I think. Maybe not.

Magnitogorsk: Is currently building a barracks. Follow with a courthouse followed by military units. It's hills should be mined ASAP and the one riverside forest should be chopped down to build a farm. Chop to build the courthouse!

Yeah, this is one of the most pressing matters: getting this city up and running. But I would skip the courthouse and build walls after the barracks. I know it's a very unpopular build but Napoleon will have zero chance of taking this city without siege if we build walls (and maintain a decent garrison, which we are - 3 axes and one spear at the moment). It's only 7 turns even at size 3 right now and will be quicker with an extra mine. It's a shame we don't have stone, otherwise I would suggest building walls in every other city as well - it bumps up our power rating without costing us maintenance like units do. For a city on the frontline like Magnitogorsk - which we expect to be the one that gets attacked - it will be really useful. Maybe also in Karachev, it could also be a target for Nappy.

Archangel: Is currently building a granary. Follow with a lighthouse followed by a courthouse. Once the silver hill is mined, send the worker to improve Magnitogorsk. Do not build any more roads near Archangel for the time being.

Agree with the build order (though it could also build a wonder for the gold), but I would like to connect Magni's wheat to our trade network, I suggest Archangel's worker does that after he's done mining and roading the silver - we can trade the extra silver to someone (Napoleon?) to get a trade relations diplo modifier. I'd love to have Nappy at Friendly.

Mezhdurechensk: Is currently building a granary. Follow with a worker followed by a (second worker and then a) [/b]lighthouse[/b] and then a courthouse. By the time the granary is finished, the rice farm should be finished and Karachev's work boat should have arrived to hook up the fish, providing enough food to push a worker out quickly. (Edit: I see we already have a work boat up there, so both the fish and the clams can be hooked up for quick worker training.)

I think Mezh should get going on the GP business ASAP. So after whipping a granary and a lighthouse, it should build a library, then run two scientists. Our first two great people were prophets which means our first scientist will take even longer to get, we could use a headstart. A library now will also mean that Mezh would be able to start on The Great Library as soon as it's available. I wouldn't want to run a spy or a merchant here, I think we should focus on generating scientists to bulb towards Liberalism.

Elektrogorsk: Is currently building a granary. Follow with a courthouse.

Agree with this. Not sure what to do with this city, I guess it'll be some crappy filler for a while. Saving it for the National Forest might be a good idea, yeah.

Svetlograd: Is currently building a granary. Follow with a worker, then a courthouse and barracks. This city has a lot of potential and I'd like to see it get there soon.

Agreed.

As soon as possible, I'd like to divert an axeman/swordsman (at least two units) to burn down Olmec. Aside from removing the taint on St. Pete's grave (claiming Heracles Hill is not feasible in the near future), it will allow Svetlograd to work the wheat.

Svetlograd will steal the wheat from Olmec pretty soon. Maybe even on the first border pop? I dunno. But with the free monument plus hopefully a lucky Confu spread we will have it soon enough. Culturally I am more concerned about the sheep since Huayna can easily take it with his +2 granary. Thankfully we have Stonehenge so we're pumping culture sooner than he can as both cities were settled only a couple of turns from each other - he's likely still building his monument. However, I do think defences in the east and especially in this city should be beefed up. But only once we feel secure in the west.

Using Svetlograd as a military city could work, however it can also work as a commerce town. I think we are lacking in commerce. We could always convert it later, though. For production in the east we have White... 4, was it? Our proposed Moai site with the fish. I think that'd make a good production city. There is also the green dot north of Stalingrad that will eventually be settled.

I do not think that it is worth converting H.C. to Christianity. If the info on Nappy and H.C. is accurate, we are more likely to create an enemy to our east than foment discord between our neighbors. According to that data, Nappy doesn't care much if someone is of a different religion, while H.C. does. I also didn't realize that the Inca are aggressive. I think Nappy will gun for us no matter what, but we may be able to cultivate an ally to our east (probably no good for military assistance, but hopefully it will at least provide a safe eastern border).

Yeah, the best scenario is if we're all Confucianist. Nappy and Huayna spread our religion for us saving us hammers on missionaries, we are safe from war until we feel like initiating one (this will probably happen at Cossacks ) and we can trade our way to a tech lead.

 

[Whosit]

Ha ha, almost surprised that most of my points were agreed with. You're spot on about Mezh, though, Glare, in that it should hurry to a library. I think that I forgot that we had libraries available when I was originally writing the post and forgot to change it. Maybe.

Probably not the library in Karachev right now, though, since our research is at 0%. That's why I suggested a temple. Definitely a library later, though I imagine that we'll end up wanting a marketplace first.

Oh, yeah, and walls in Magnitogorsk would be a good build. I can see it replacing the courthouse, but on the other hand, if we can put a chop or two into the courthouse, it won't waste that much time and it'll save us some much needed money. I'll leave it up to the player's judgment.

Regarding Svetlograd, yeah, I was wondering if it would get the barb territory or not, if it does, all the better. Good point about the sheep, though. If we're really concerned about culture, we can probably slot in a library. We'll probably have to hope that religion spreads there on its own since I don't think we can spare the hammers to build a missionary.

Oh, and thanks for correcting me on my sea-side town build orders. I always forget that work boats go first.

Also: Glad to hear from you, radio. I don't think there's any problem with you playing today unless someone really disagrees with my plan in the next few hours. It sounds like you get the idea, so, barring any unfortunate and unforeseen events (bad random event, Nappy goes to war) I don't think you'll have any trouble improving our economy from 'OMG!?!" to "stable."

 

[Norvin_Green]

stalingrad: Well, it's going to be tied up for awhile with the apostolic palace. A worker is marked to go to the capital and chop down some trees to speed it up. Stalingrad grows in 3 turns; the next citizen should work the plains hill mine, subsequent citizens should probably work plains forests until the a.p. Is completed. Afterwards, stalingrad should probably construct military units, but that's so far down the line that i can't say for certain.

Sounds good except that the worker should haul a** to Stalingrad. That road and wheat can wait. This is OUR CAPITAL!!

moscow: Is currently building a courthouse. It should be allowed to finish (whipping is risky as we may hurt our economy by losing the citizens). Follow with a worker and then another worker. It can then focus on military builds. When the city grows, work the copper mine--we can feed another mine, so the spare grassland hill should be mined to increase output which will speed up worker and unit production.

I'd rather see us let this city grow to its happy cap than build workers. We want this city to bring in huge commerce for us so we need 3 more farms (I only looked quickly) then COTTAGE everything else!!)

novosibirsk: Is currently building a courthouse. Follow with a confucian missionary. It's so low on hammers that i can't think of much better. The missionary can be used to convert h.c. (if he hasn't already done so) or convert one of our towns that hasn't been auto-converted. Work all sea tiles before working the ice-marble.

I think we should mix in the occasional military build here too to bolster defenses and power rating.

karachev: Is currently building a work boat for another town. Follow with a worker followed by a confucian temple. We'll benefit more by having the worker first. The new worker can help build cottages and such. The temple will increase the happy cap so we can work more cottages.

I vote library sooner than temple.

magnitogorsk: Is currently building a barracks. Follow with a courthouse followed by military units. It's hills should be mined asap and the one riverside forest should be chopped down to build a farm. chop to build the courthouse!

I would build an axe or two prior to the courthouse to try and boost our power rating a little. Agree with Glare on the wall here too.

archangel: Is currently building a granary. Follow with a lighthouse followed by a courthouse. Once the silver hill is mined, send the worker to improve magnitogorsk. do not build any more roads near archangel for the time being.

Slip in a military build or two as well.

mezhdurechensk: Is currently building a granary. Follow with a worker followed by a (second worker and then a) [/b]lighthouse[/b] and then a courthouse. By the time the granary is finished, the rice farm should be finished and karachev's work boat should have arrived to hook up the fish, providing enough food to push a worker out quickly. (edit: I see we already have a work boat up there, so both the fish and the clams can be hooked up for quick worker training.)

Granary>Library (whipped if needed) and run a specialist or two plus build workers after whips.

elektrogorsk: Is currently building a granary. Follow with a courthouse. I do not think this city will see enough terrain improvements to make it economical to push a worker out in the near future, but i may be wrong. I recommend retaining the forests. More on this later.

Also military.

svetlograd: Is currently building a granary. Follow with a worker, then a courthouse and barracks. This city has a lot of potential and i'd like to see it get there soon.

And some more military.

I'd prefer to see us not build workers in our smaller towns. Our workforce should be concentrating on our core. I know I am the one who suggested more workers but for now they should be at our core. If I recall when I checked the game earlier neither Stalingrad or Moscow had a worker in it. These two cities plus Karachev (sp?) are going to be our main $ contributors so they should be our immediate focus. Also because of Nappy Mag-jklngvoijr needs to get to building our units and quick.

 

[Dave Hartwick]

Geez, you guys are hard to keep up with. I had to skim again. Next player or so should use a small stack and raze a couple barbarian towns for a short term research boost IMO. Sorry if that was already said.

Glare did a couple things I wish I had done, like getting rid of that courthouse build. It bugged me my whole set except I was too cheap to lose the hammer investment. Good set IMO.

Haven't looked at the save but I bet we could get a relations boost by gifting a spare resource to the frogs.

 

[Whosit]

Norvin: I agree that we need more military builds, so those should be added when able.

I'm not really sure what you're referring to about my comment on Stalingrad. I don't think I mentioned wheat.

Regarding Moscow: I know we need more commerce, but that requires cottages. We don't have enough workers to keep up with our cities, so I think we're better off delaying growth in some cities, even Moscow, to pump out the workers we'll need to build our infrastructure. Definitely wouldn't use Moscow to build workers long-term, of course. Basically, I don't think we have enough workers to prevent our cities from growing and working unimproved tiles.

My other question, for you and Glare, I guess, is why you would build libraries now. The only benefit I can think of is culture. We're at 0% research, so the library's research bonus won't help at all, but a courthouse's maintenance reduction will. A library probably won't aid any of our cities until research is bumped up a few steps. Let me make myself clear: I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand why you want libraries now.

Dave: Sorry we change our plans too quickly! If we gift a spare resource, let's make sure it's one that's not important. Maybe a . . . what do we have two of? We'll have two silver if the second gets roaded . . . do we want to gift a happy resource?

 

[radiofreestl]

0- After the abdication of Glare the Relentless REXer and a fierce Politburo struggle, Radiofree the Tightwad seizes power. Stoic, benevolent posters of his moustachioed visage grace the empire.

1- Mag Rax>Walls.

3- Nap founds Grenoble on our western Cow spot.

4- Novo CH (whipped)>Chicken Itch (for gold). +2 at 10%.

5- Arch Granary (whipped)>Lighthouse. HC founds Vilcas somewhere not near us. Nappy comes calling and as I hear La Marseillaise I hope it's a weak demand...but instead it's a HR for Alpha trade suggestion. Um, no.

6- +1 at 20%.

7- +3 at 20%. Christianity spreads to Grenoble. Sigh with relief as the RNG didn't give it to HC.

8- Mag Walls (chopped)>Spear.

9- Mag Spear>Ax. Nap gets a GS. Svet now can work the Wheat off the barb city. HC techs Construction.

11- Both Nap and HC will trade Calendar, but it's as worthless to us as HB. +5 at 20%.

13- Conf spreads to Elek. Stalingrad grows to 7 and works the Plains River Farm instead of a Plains Forest since it doesn't affect the AP finish date. Note to next player:

14- Kar Lib>CH (it's at -5.48 maintenance right now, so seems more important than Workers or military. 14 turns atm and growth soon, so I suggest a whip).

15- Moscow CH>Worker. +7 at 20%. HC founds Vilcabamba in a highly weedy and razable location, but one that also will necessitate culture in the meantime.

16- Conf in Arch.

17- With the 2 chops:

18-

At this point I step down to spend more time with my family.

Chose MC as a placeholder (cheap Forges). Open for discussion.

Units left unmoved.

Our fogbusting Chariot is escorting a Worker east.

Think we should whip Mag's CH now that it's grown and overflow into military. I stayed off the whip except in small cities with 1-turn whips that would grow back the next turn, so as not to take any commerce hits.

We can now do -1 at 40% (where I left it), or +9 at 30%.

Given that we needed pretty much everything coming into this turnset (gold, buildings, military, etc.), I played to put the next player in the best position to do some fun things, like razing some barb cities, whipping some buildings, and boosting our power. I did sneak in a few military builds without seeing Norv's post, but we do need more (0.7 power with both, but no WHEOOH with either). We need to get a Settler out soon, raze the barb city to the SE, and settle St. Pete so HC doesn't take any of our beloved Russian tundra. We also need a block to our NE.

My busy schedule and the speed at which y'all post is usually too quick for me to offer too much commentary, but I'm actively lurking, so don't worry about my silence. I won't be afraid to let you know if I think you're totally wrong

Roster:
Whosit
Dave Hartwick
Glare Seethe
radiofreestl
Norvin Green (up)
Xanthus (on deck)

[Save sent to NG.]

 

[Norvin_Green]

I'm not really sure what you're referring to about my comment on Stalingrad. I don't think I mentioned wheat.

I was working from memory (scary at my age) and was stating my case for why I felt it was more important for the worker to come back from Elek to chop rather than build a road. Elek is on the water so it is connected to the trade route already.

Regarding Moscow: I know we need more commerce, but that requires cottages. We don't have enough workers to keep up with our cities, so I think we're better off delaying growth in some cities, even Moscow, to pump out the workers we'll need to build our infrastructure. Definitely wouldn't use Moscow to build workers long-term, of course. Basically, I don't think we have enough workers to prevent our cities from growing and working unimproved tiles.

I agree we need workers but Moscow is the shrine city and its pretty cottageable ( is that a word?) so the sooner they are worked the sooner we reap the benefits. It grows slowly so stagnating it to build workers to me seems sub-optimal.

My other question, for you and Glare, I guess, is why you would build libraries now. The only benefit I can think of is culture. We're at 0% research, so the library's research bonus won't help at all, but a courthouse's maintenance reduction will. A library probably won't aid any of our cities until research is bumped up a few steps. Let me make myself clear: I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand why you want libraries now.

Our GP farm (Mez-something) needs one to run 2 GS's. You are right about Karachev until the slider comes around.

 

[radiofreestl]

[Double post.]

 

[Norvin_Green]

Here you go guys (obsolete flags removed per request radio! Its Alt-S btw)

 

[Norvin_Green]

Nice set radio This is also a got it and some initial plans.

Stalingrad - finish library > axe> wonder
Moscow - worker > market
Archangel - working the silver gets us to 17 turns on MC
Mez - whip the granary > galley (barb galley is to pillage one of our fishing nets soon) > library
Elek - whip granary

On the trade front - we can get HBR from either Nap or HC (same for calendar) What one tech could we trade them to get both? HA's will help with mobile response (Nappy) plus can shuffle quickly for MP. Calendar nets us +1 from incense and a chance to build MoM (if we want). We can also build Hagia in Stalingrad in 18 turns. +50% worker speed might really help us. Think about it. I will post more details tomorrow and probably play either Friday night (possibly tomorrow night)

 

[Whosit]

Seems like a good set, radio. I enjoyed the account of your rise to power. The only thing that will be remembered more than your accomplishments, I think, is how you so graciously gave up power when your duty was done. Truly the ideal dictator. Edit: In my excitement about the barb town, I forgot to say: Great job, radio, on pulling our finances out of the pit!

Let's see, first thing I noticed: Norvin, make it a priority to take the southern barbarian town for two reasons: One, it is spawning archers. Guard our traveling worker carefully. Second: That town has TWO barbarian workers in it! Capturing them will greatly boost our workforce and save us time on training our own. Capac has a ton of units in his new border town, so it'll be a race.

I think you can pull units from the following locations: North: There is an axeman fogbusting near Mezh who no longer needs to. Can pull an axe or two from Karachev. Pull a couple axes from Magnitogorsk: The City Raider II and the Combat II axes seem ideally suited for the job. With those 4-5 axemen, taking down the barbarian city should be no problem.

The big question is: Can they get there before H.C. decides to take the barb town (and the workers!). It'll take 14 turns for the furthest axe to reach it, I think. I don't know how we could speed it up except by building a road (but it'd take longer to build the road). The other option is to settle a blocking city, but I don't think we have a space settler. We'd probably have to switch Stalingrad to a Settler and whip it ASAP. All I know is that I do NOT want H.C. to nab a town there and I don't want him to get the barb workers.

I'd consider this a priority unless anyone else thinks that I am nuts. Ok, onto other things because I spent far more time on that issue than I thought I would . . . .

Moscow is building a worker, that's good. I don't think it's an issue stagnating it like that, since there are no more fresh cottages to work, anyway. I figure we can keep it on worker duty until a new cottage is built.

The others have calendar (and H.C. has Construction, but won't trade). We don't really have any calendar resources aside from the incense, and I don't think it's critical to get them.

Rather than Metal Casting (the cheap forges are tempting, what about a Great Library run? I think we can make it and we have the marble. At current research rates, it'll take a total of 22 turns to research the required techs. I'd leave the slider where it is until we go broke or until we gain a little extra commerce (so that we can break even). The free scientists would probably help our research rate.

Builds generally look good, radio. If only they'd go faster. I don't know why the workers are farming near Magnitogorsk, but since it finishes next turn they should add another mine. Once the courthouse is finished there, we definitely want it on full time combat duty. I don't like the looks on our borders.

Karachev can probably put in a . . . marketplace after the courthouse. Unless science is above 50%, a marketplace would probably do us more good. Glad to see more cottages up there. The worker still has move, so I guess he can start another!

So, I guess I'd still suggest following the Five Turn Plans, build up infrastructure where we need it (we now have more options, with currency done), get a few more workers out because we still have 5 total, and military builds from the towns that can do it.

Stalingrad? I guess it can finish the library, but after that probably assist in beefing up our military. Unless we need a settler real quick. (Edit: Yeah, the Hagia would help us out a great deal if we can nab it. Definitely worth thinking about.)

Edit again: On second thought, maybe we should stick with Metal Casting. The GL would be nice, but now that I give our situation with our neighbors a second thought, we probably can't afford to complacently sit back and build . . . . Forges would enhance our ability to spit out, well, everything, and we can go for literature afterwords, I suppose. A forge would hasten the construction of a wonder, anyway, and net us an extra happy from the silver.

I don't know what we can trade for the two techs, but if we can get a "one-for-two" deal, let's do it. I think we really need horse archers for two reasons: As already mentioned, they are fast and can be used as a mobile garrison/fast response troops. Secondly, if/when we are attacked, horse archers benefiting from a barracks/stables combo can be given Flanking II and can shred the catapults that will surely be sent at us. Ripping apart Catapults in the open will surely thwart any attempt to quickly take our cities, hopefully giving us enough time to muster a counter-attack. Magnitogorsk should build a stable/HAs as soon as we are able to.

 

[Glare Seethe]

Don't have time to check out the save at the moment, but from radio's report it looks like a very good set. Economy's doing much better.

Just a quick comment until I can take a look in the afternoon - I'd still go with Aesthetics > Literature for tech. It doesn't really matter if we want to focus on military builds - let the core cities build military while Mezh builds TGL. We won't be using Mezh for military builds anyway. Cheap forges are tempting but forges are infrastructure, not military. Better to build units without the forge bonus if it means we're better prepared for war. Once we've caught up a bit in units we can think about adding forges.

I wouldn't build The Hagia Sophia in Stalingrad for that reason, either. But it can go in one of our tundra cities. We might even have a chance to finish it, but the gold would be very welcome anyway.