Scalable Civ - Player Enabled Features

[Dwarven Zerker]

Another thread inspired this idea. Build a basic game and an advanced game the difference being the features enabled by the player. The basic game would play much like the Civ we have now (or even a little easier) and the Advanced game would allow players to add more advanced options such as more techs in each age (like DyP does) and more detailed diplomacy (possibly a "league of nations" or Nato type alliance.)

This will allow for new players to civ to get up to speed quickly while and then increase the difficulty of their games until all advanced features are enabled. Meanwhile us seasoned vets would be able to start with a more advanced game right after tearing off the shrink wrap.

 

[croxis]

sounds too complicated and I'm sure it would be hard to play balance.

 

[Dwarven Zerker]

sounds too complicated and I'm sure it would be hard to play balance.

More complicated in that it would require another screen to set up the player enabled options (similar to the world options screen) that marks the basic features as default with options to enable more advanced features.

It doesn't have to be hard to play balance. Develop the most advanced version and "dumb it down" to the basic version. There might need to be some minor tweaking but should be mostly (if not completely) balanced to begin with.

 

[Stid]

why do you need a basic mode? they'll undoubtedly make a tutorial for the inexperienced players so just stick to complicated but great gameplay

 

[Jake5555555]

This is a great idea. It would attract new players who didn't want to spend a long time learning to play, and then once you are good at the game you move up to the advanced level. I know that a lot of people here don't care about new players, but that is what they need to get to make money and create great games.

 

[Stid]

have u ever played cheftain?the comps dont even attack u.i admit the first time i played i got stuffed but ive never been beatin since and i usually play on a hard level.im stubborn n i say its a waste of time

 

[Dwarven Zerker]

This is a great idea. It would attract new players who didn't want to spend a long time learning to play, and then once you are good at the game you move up to the advanced level. I know that a lot of people here don't care about new players, but that is what they need to get to make money and create great games.

My idea isn't a basic and advanced all or nothing levels. It's more like you start with the basic level and choose which of x number of advanced features you want to play with. That way you can have some things from the advanced level and some things from the basic level and slowly work your way up to enable all "advanced" features. Mind you this is in addition to the current difficulty levels of Chieftain through Sid.

I apologize if I am not fully communicating the concept. I don't get much posting time from work.

 

[Mewtarthio]

Why not just let the modders make Adv. versions for us?

 

[croxis]

So for civ three, what would be something that is 'advanced'?

 

[sir_schwick]

1) Why not add this feature? We all want varying degrees of difficulty and complexity, so its a win-win situation. Also, a Newbie mode would make introducing civ really easy, maybe you could even have a couple extra conquest style games where switches are changed in the middle to adjust players to them.

@croxis
A model where resource consumption and supply are calculated, instead of assuming a single source is infiinite.
A model where age advancement would depend on developmental goals as well as technology. An example would be that advancing to the Middle Ages would require all cities within 6 squares of your palace be connected by roads, if possible.
A model where production and food could be traded.

@Mewtarthio
Some of the stuff we want implemented would not be functionally programmed unless they were 'Advanced' options.

@Dwarven Zerker
I really thought this was a great idea when I read it. Simply put, I do not understand the staunch opposition to it. It seems as though there is a strong civ-elitist sentiment at play here.

 

[croxis]

I just have difficulty figuring out how it would work from a mechanic stand point. By having such drastic changes the way the entire game is played could be changed. In other words would it still be the same game?

 

[sir_schwick]

This example may be more helpful those who have played Railroad Tycoon II. In RTII, you had the option of setting how 'advanced' the economy was. On Basic all you had to worry about was the distance of the haul and the devaluation of cargo over time. On Moderate, you also had to consider how long cargoes would stay avaliable in the train stations and had a very flexible supply and demand model. On Advanced, your supply and demand was very important, as even a load or two over a facilities optimum input would cause a severe drop in demand and devalue any loads going their.

Basically the civ scalable options would be similair. The Basic and Advanced level would have the same 'base' of rules and the concept. Basic would be the bare-bones concept for playability. Each subsequent level would add a layer of complexity and remove more assumptions the lower level made. So the concept is still the same, it would just add elements some players would want and allow others to not add features do not care to add complexity for.

 

[Dwarven Zerker]

@Dwarven Zerker
I really thought this was a great idea when I read it. Simply put, I do not understand the staunch opposition to it. It seems as though there is a strong civ-elitist sentiment at play here.

I have noticed that too. Not sure if it's an elitism or just confusion (sometimes I don't explain things enough and this might be the case.)

You got the mechanics of it down. It wouldn't be too hard to do and I think it would help the Newbies out immensely to play a watered down, vanilla version. It would also let advanced players select a specific set-up that would affect how the AI's play instead of just what kind of world a vanilla AI will play in.

For instance, an advanced diplomatic feature should make multi-national alliances possible and the win is not by conquering or dominating the world but by forming an alliance that everyone else joins. The endgame begins when only two alliances exist and from there it could be war or superior diplomacy that wins the game (either the other alliance is wiped out leaving just one alliance or the opposing alliance joins the other - either way there is one alliance and the win condition is met.) I think this could be a great win condition for builders/diplomats.

 

[sealman]

all the techs and improvements should be available to every player regardless of skill level.

 

[Dwarven Zerker]

all the techs and improvements should be available to every player regardless of skill level.

Unless the number of techs is overwhelming for a new player. Too much of anything can be overwhelming and discouraging without the determination to get accustomed to it. That's why a toned down, vanilla version of an advanced game would be good for new players.

I got bored of normal Civ after just 3 or 4 games and downloaded the Double Your Pleasure mod (DyP). When I opened up the tech tree for my first game of the DyP mod I took 5 minutes to study the Ancient Age techs - and I was an experienced player! Without this mod I would have dropped playing civ after winning my first Monarch game (4th total after ripping off the shrink wrap) since vanilla Civ/PTW is just too simple for me. There's many others that are of the same mind.

 

[sealman]

Why not just let the modders make Adv. versions for us?

I think that Dwarven Zerker wants the developers to make the two "Versions" of the game instead of relying on the modding community who actually would make a more advanced (more units/techs/improvements) version of the game.

Besides, with modded games, there are always going to be some sort of balance issues where the modded feature tilt the game in one directoin or another. Sometimes a useful item by the modder turns into a little exploit by the player since the AI does not use it in the manner in which it was intended. The Land Mines from the DYP mod comes to mind as do wheeled transport units.

So for civ three, what would be something that is 'advanced'?

The "advanced" version of Civ III would be the Double Your Pleasure Mod, which is more detailed and indepth game and can be found on this site over in the customization forum.

While I am all in favor of different skill levels to accomodate all players, prohibitieng some features to players at different skill levels is not the answer.

 

[sir_schwick]

I agree with the Zerker here(is it alright if I call you that?). I quit playing Civ for about 6 months because every game was the same, of course I still post , alot. DyP was very refreshing and the same concept works well for other games. I already listed by RRT2 example, but another is BKB Supermod for MTW. You can play a minimum of 20 different games on MTW(Each faction, I figure you start from Early always) before you felt like you have gotten anywhere near playing it all. Still, some players have managed to do this. Some excellent modder went to the effort of modding in almost every major political power in medieval Europe and BKB is the mod for MTW, but newbies would quit after two turns because of the scope.

The best way to do this would be a set of small(100 to 150 turn) Conquest style games. They would each scale up gameplay and explain how things work as you move along. You could then use any options in normal games you did in the Training games. Of course there would be methods to override this, but it would involve information only released to hardcore civ sites, such as this one. The training games would at most take 1-2 hours each.
I know some players would object to being forced to play a tutorial, but it would ensure that any advanced concepts or new players would nto get bogged down.

@Sealman
I just can't agree that DYP would be enough for an 'advanced game'. 1) Advanced woudl be scalable, since you coudl choose which aspects you want advanced and which ones basic. 2) DYP coudl not implement things such as teh UET or Logistics. 3) Firaxis needs to fix the AI anyway. Its more then two games, its whatever game you want, just kept simple for the first couple till newbies get it.