Scandinavians/Norsemen/Vikings/Danes... Time to clear this up once and for all.

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Yes, but we have already talked about this. Magnus was Norwegian, but that does not mean that 'Denmark was part of Norway'. If that was the logic, then we could say that 'Sweden was part of Denmark' during the Kalmar Union, because Margrethe was Danish... which I'm sure many Swedes wouldn't accept - and rightly so.


Wait... are you saying that Norway was not a part of Denmark during the 7 years when Canute was king of Norway ? Make up your mind.

Your comparison to the Kalmar Union is a bad one, as it was a personal union of independent countries (with one foreign policy).
 
Jutland is historically not more Danish than Skåne.

dude... i want to beat you up... so bad...

LISTEN: Jutland has been danish for all of the time while denmark has been united... get that?
 
dude... i want to beat you up... so bad...

LISTEN: Jutland has been danish for all of the time while denmark has been united... get that?

Yes but Skåne was 'Danish' before Jutland was, because the Danes most likely migrated from the east. Jutland was inhabited by the Jutes and Kimbrers before becoming more closely tied to the rest of the area.

Get that? :rolleyes:
 
Edit: Here is my most blatant mistake. I apologise for some of these claims, which are simplifications and not thought through. The claim that Harald Harderaade was a vassal king is wrong and I understand that many people have gotten angry about this. Also, claiming that Norway was under Danish rule througout the Viking Age is also wrong and I am sorry for claiming it. I do, however, not accept that Harald Harderaade was ever king of Denmark, as has been claimed several times. The Viking Age was a time of great shifting of power in Scandinavia, but Norway did come under Danish control in the late Viking Age and (for the most part) remained under Danish rule up until 1814.

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and (for the most part) remained under Danish rule up until 1814.

You really need to work on your so called simplifications. =}

The Viking Age was a time of great shifting of power in Scandinavia, but Norway did come under Danish control in the late Viking Age

Actually, I could say it was the other way around, Denmark was a part of Norway at the very end of the Viking age (During the reign of Magnus the Good, and possibly the reign of Harald Hardrada, as the Danish king just kept fleeing the country).

Magnus had plans to rebuild the "north sea empire" of Canute, by also becoming king of England. Would it then have been a Norwegian empire ? Was Canutes empire a Danish empire ? If so, considering it's brief period of existence it definately shouldn't be a reason alone to have 'Denmark' in-game, as Denmark was not in any way more "powerful" than Norway during the viking age (power shifted back and forth). Denmark did become more powerful after the Black Death (1349) though, which wiped out 2/3 of the population.

The only event that even remotely would qualify a "Denmark" civ in-game, is when Denmark breaks the union treaty in 1536 and claims Norway as a ("independent") puppet state, creating 'the kingdom of Denmark-Norway'.
The king called himself "King of Denmark and Norway". Norway was still governed from Norway (by the "Statholder") but essentially ruled from Copenhagen, especially after 1660. Norway kept its own separate army, laws and a few institutions - but had a joint fleet with Denmark (mostly Norwegian crew).
Norwegians have always considered themselves independent (definitely not 'Danes') - that's why we are an independent country today.

IMO (obviously) "Vikings" is definitely the best name (especially for the Civilization series), regardless of the original meaning of the word 'Viking'. Actually, it's completely irrelevant. The important thing is the name history remembers them by, and I'm sure there are other civilizations that are remembered by other names then what they called themselves. 'Denmark-Norway' fits better in a game like 'Empire Total War', and not a game that starts 4000 BC.

So, since Vikings actually were united from time to time, a 'Viking' civ is nothing to go all berserk about. ...but only 'Danish Empire', 'Denmark' and 'Danes' ? Hell no !


I think most people in Scandinavia are happy that they're called Vikings in-game. =D
 
They should do it like in Freeciv and have a separate civ for Danes, Finns, Icelandic, Norwegians, Swedes and Vikings. Everybody would be happy then. :p
 
the swedes was as far south as turkey and they named russia to russia (well not to russia exactly but the name comes from the swedish explorers).

I havent read the whole post, I read the first and some more so excuse me if I bring up already disscused matters. (I am swedish by they way, so I guess I am a bit biased :)) I agree that the swedish vikings wasnt really plunderers like the danish but they did go for long trade missions. However sweden was quite large in the 1600-1700 and defeated a alliance consisting of russia, denmark and polen, however they didnt conquer russia but they tried and got the same treatment as napoleon and hitler. And the dansih was quite powerful during this era also, not as powerful but they held a pretty central position in europe.

What I want to have said is that the scandinavian countries is not just vikings they had a large impact on european history later also. I would have been nice to have that reflected in Civilization, perhaps with a leader that is from a later time period.
 
I'm sorry, RobinHat, for a very late answer but I've been having more trouble than usual with my internet connection lately (and I still can't auto-quote messages). Anyway I'll try to answer your questions and in a way to lead us back on topic, wich should be what kind of scandinavian civ(s) should be in the game.
Originally posted by RobinHat
What historians? What general opinion? I don't believe that there is a general opinion stating that Skåne was ever invaded/conquered/annexed by Denmark. Why, if it is such a generally accepted fact, are you unable to answer any of my questions that at the very least would clarify and back up your claims?
Again, I stated that Skåne was more permanently tied to the Danish realm sometime during Harald Bluetooths rule in the 970s wich is what I've read, whenever I 've read about that period. If you want names of books I can give you a few that is in my posession (see below) but I must repeat myself; I've never heard/read any theory to the contrary. If you have another theory please present the evidence.

List of books in IF:s library especially mentioning Harald Bluetooths unifying of Denmark:
Sveriges Historia (Swedens History) - Norstedts Förlag (mentioned part written by Dick Harrison, a history professor at Lunds University
Svensk Historia (Swedish History) - Alf Henriksson, partially mentions the event
Nordisk Vikingaguide - Statens Historiska Museum
Politikens Etbinds Danmarks Historie- Grethe Jensen & Benito Scocozza
Arkeologi I Norden - Göran Burenhult

Archeological findings, inscriptions on runestones, medieval texts and icelandic sagas as well as for example the scientific dating of the trelleborg-forts, built on strategical locations all over Denmark, to this particular period, are what these historians base their theories on.
[Canute] did call it LVND DENEMAC, which means 'London of Denmark', because London in England was spelt 'LVND' by Danes in Canute's time.
Go back and read Öjevind Långs post (#173). I think he did a good job in showing the difference of Lund and London and that "The name emphatically is not a Scandinavian version of the English London".

That Lund means grove, and that it got it's name for being a sacred grove and not for resembling an english place is without a doubt.

Moving in on topic...
RobinHat, I actually believe we are not too far apart on opinion despite our continous Skåne-debate. What I object too is your statement that "Skåne is Danish", because it suggests that there is a Danish nationality differing from that of the Swedes. The people of Skåne are Scandinavians and whether they would come to belong to the Scandinavian states of Denmark or Sweden is a matter based on other aspects than national identity. The Danes were one of many Scandinavian tribes who began forming their realm in southern S during the first half of the first millenia (perhaps in the 400s or 500s). They expanded from there but in ways typical of that time the realm was loosely held together based on the might of individual leaders and falling apart from time to time until the end of the first milennia and the rule of Harald Bluetooth and perhaps with the help of a new religion.

I believe that there are two things, that more than any other, have played a part in making Skåne a part of Sweden; The ever increasing ease of traveling by land instead of by sea, and the fact that foreign powers don't want one country to control the Öresund strait, and this factor, has also played a significant role in keeping Scandinavia divided. For Civ5 however, I wish to see a united Scandinavia again, and the only problem I can find with that Civ is whether the citylist should have a viking age emphasis or a more modern look.
 
It looks like Firaxis paid attention to the 'Viking'/'Scandinavia' complaints. Civilization V is finally getting a viking civ, and look who it is?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjK40yQsa0w

EDIT: Yes, it says Denmark, but look at 1:25. Their third (?) city is Kaupang, and they have Ski Infantry. This is Denmark-Norway.
 
It looks like Firaxis paid attention to the 'Viking'/'Scandinavia' complaints. Civilization V is finally getting a viking civ, and look who it is?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjK40yQsa0w

EDIT: Yes, it says Denmark, but look at 1:25. Their third (?) city is Kaupang, and they have Ski Infantry. This is Denmark-Norway.

Honestly, I prefer them over Sweden. There. I said it.
 
Oh God. Looks like dag trolls are being fed. Get teh lolcats next, and prepare to be rickrolled. >:(
 
Finland is also a core part of Scandinavia...

Finland is an odd situation. It's half in Scandinavia, half in Russia. It was occupied by both Sweden and Russia and contributed to both their empires. Linguistically, they're connected to neither.
 
Historically half in Russia, as in historically part of Russia. It's policies have never been exclusively western because of that Western connection. The second half of the 20th Century they took a far more neutral role than any other Scandinavian country because of the pressure/conflict with the Soviet Union. I didn't mean they aren't Scandinavian, just they have external concerns.

It's also a language that's entirely unrelated. Swedish, Danish, and Norwegian are almost mutually comprehensible.
 
So your saying the Finnish school system is rubbish, all Finnish scholars are retards, our education is from a lying mafia and the Finnish government and history straight forwards lies to us? Okay, that can be your opinion. Though it's very insulting.

Or your just mixing the Scandinavian Peninsula up with Scandinavia.
 
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You really need to work on your so called simplifications. =}



Actually, I could say it was the other way around, Denmark was a part of Norway at the very end of the Viking age (During the reign of Magnus the Good, and possibly the reign of Harald Hardrada, as the Danish king just kept fleeing the country).

Magnus had plans to rebuild the "north sea empire" of Canute, by also becoming king of England. Would it then have been a Norwegian empire ? Was Canutes empire a Danish empire ? If so, considering it's brief period of existence it definately shouldn't be a reason alone to have 'Denmark' in-game, as Denmark was not in any way more "powerful" than Norway during the viking age (power shifted back and forth). Denmark did become more powerful after the Black Death (1349) though, which wiped out 2/3 of the population.

The only event that even remotely would qualify a "Denmark" civ in-game, is when Denmark breaks the union treaty in 1536 and claims Norway as a ("independent") puppet state, creating 'the kingdom of Denmark-Norway'.
The king called himself "King of Denmark and Norway". Norway was still governed from Norway (by the "Statholder") but essentially ruled from Copenhagen, especially after 1660. Norway kept its own separate army, laws and a few institutions - but had a joint fleet with Denmark (mostly Norwegian crew).
Norwegians have always considered themselves independent (definitely not 'Danes') - that's why we are an independent country today.

IMO (obviously) "Vikings" is definitely the best name (especially for the Civilization series), regardless of the original meaning of the word 'Viking'. Actually, it's completely irrelevant. The important thing is the name history remembers them by, and I'm sure there are other civilizations that are remembered by other names then what they called themselves. 'Denmark-Norway' fits better in a game like 'Empire Total War', and not a game that starts 4000 BC.

So, since Vikings actually were united from time to time, a 'Viking' civ is nothing to go all berserk about. ...but only 'Danish Empire', 'Denmark' and 'Danes' ? Hell no !


I think most people in Scandinavia are happy that they're called Vikings in-game. =D

Good post, covering the essential point.
 
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