SCENARIO DEVELOPMENT THREAD: The Second Indochina War

[unscratchedfoot]

Thanks for the link to that unit. I got a rice paddy bonus icon (see the Vietnam mod thread for details) and added in heaps of stuff. I like your idea of making VC carry landmines as well as the loadable firebase idea - very realistic. So now VC can carry tanks and arty as well but I doubt anyone will bother being silly like that although the communists did transport arty in pieces sometimes to make it easier to carry.

How do you flag landmines? As invisible immobile loadable cruise missiles is correct? I never used them before. What stats do you give them?

I'm thinking of making VC not invisible but give them all terrain movement to compensate and allow sudden unexpected attacks. All terrain movement of one point so they can move 2 spaces through thick terrain, attack, be subject to counterattack that turn and then evacuate wounded on the next turn up to 3 spaces. What do you think? I really don't like not being able to see units I'm fighting and also the VC graphic is really good.

 

[El Justo]

I got a rice paddy bonus icon (see the Vietnam mod thread for details) and added in heaps of stuff.

sweet. how bout a link to the rice paddy?

I like your idea of making VC carry landmines as well as the loadable firebase idea - very realistic. So now VC can carry tanks and arty as well but I doubt anyone will bother being silly like that although the communists did transport arty in pieces sometimes to make it easier to carry.

thanks. VC can only carry/transport the land mine unit (flagged as transport cruise missle) and yes the LM unit is flagged as cruise missle. there is another commie unit (N Vietnamese Porter) that can transport wheeled units (2 transport capacity i think w/ alot of mvmt[3]).
land mines are flagged as invisible, , cruise missle, immobile, hidden nationality and -5 HP bonus. IIRC, the dude who made the unit (?? @ this time) gave a rundown on how the unit should be flagged. check the Unit Library thread.

I'm thinking of making VC not invisible but give them all terrain movement to compensate and allow sudden unexpected attacks. All terrain movement of one point so they can move 2 spaces through thick terrain, attack, be subject to counterattack that turn and then evacuate wounded on the next turn up to 3 spaces. What do you think?

sure. it's worth a shot.

i see you've added an arse-load of units. is there any way you could list those added for the US/ARVN and NVA so that i may check them out? how bout the other resources too? thanks

 

[unscratchedfoot]

Here are the goods. I'm standing down from my mod for now as there's been no interest in it at all. Also, smokey is making a new machinegun infantry unit which will be very useful.

For vietcong, I decided to make them 3 movement and ignore move costs for jungle and hills. That gives them plenty of movement and simulates reality. For mines I'm wondering, if you make it a cruise missile you make it range zero and then leave the ai strategy blank, is that right? I don't want the ai to stack up mines in its cities and then lob them at units outside. In your mod, you don't give the ai the right to build mines do you? I'm not gonna write out a list of like 40 units cause that would take too long. All the new units I added have already been mentioned on the thread.

I'm thinking now that I'd prefer you to post your mod and then I can check it out is better than we post 2 different vietnam mods. However, I'd prefer that you separate south vietnam and the us into 2 different civs and the Us cities could be base camps somewhere in vietnam or give them control over some cities around the border with north vietnam (base camps are better I think). US shipments of troops and what not can be put in a task force out on the ocean to the side of the map. Do you know how to put troops on ships in the editor? Also you need to autoprod chinese troops into it to represent their sneaky contribution to the commie effort. I recommend you use smokey's generic green soldier for them.

 

[unscratchedfoot]

Some of the smaller ships like patrol boat, torpedo boat and jets icons are not so good but I just put in what came with the units.

 

[El Justo]

I'm standing down from my mod for now as there's been no interest in it at all.

dude, don't let that stop you. your ideas are very good. plus, it's hard to stimulate interest w/ the finicky cfc populace.

smoking mirror's units are very nice. is there a preview thread or something?

For mines I'm wondering, if you make it a cruise missile you make it range zero and then leave the ai strategy blank, is that right? I don't want the ai to stack up mines in its cities and then lob them at units outside. In your mod, you don't give the ai the right to build mines do you?

yes. i believe that's correct regarding the land mine's flags. as for the ai, i've made them buildable only for the n vietnam human player and that's it. for the s vietnam version, the land mines are preplaced on the map and can not be built by the AI to avoid exactly what you referred to.

I'm not gonna write out a list of like 40 units cause that would take too long.

i understand

I'm thinking now that I'd prefer you to post your mod and then I can check it out is better than we post 2 different vietnam mods. However, I'd prefer that you separate south vietnam and the us into 2 different civs and the Us cities could be base camps somewhere in vietnam or give them control over some cities around the border with north vietnam (base camps are better I think). US shipments of troops and what not can be put in a task force out on the ocean to the side of the map.

ok. but i personally feel that you should plow forward w/ your ideas b/c they are superb. as for seperating the US and S Vietnam, i created this mod specifically for 2 civs under the premise that the mod would center around the unification of Vietnam. you know, nice and clean and fairly easy. there are a few problems we encountered during the creation of the orig scenario regarding this exact issue. do we combine them or make 2 different civs? where do the US cities/bases go if we seperate them? in the middle of s vietnam w/ discontinued/seperated borders? off to the side of the map as we finally decided on? it's a tough call for sure. i would be willing to have a seperate biq file seperating the 2 civs just for the purpose of satisfying those who feel that the US and S Vietnam should be apart.

Do you know how to put troops on ships in the editor?

can't be done. blame firaxis on that one.

Also you need to autoprod chinese troops into it to represent their sneaky contribution to the commie effort.

am i missing something? chinese troops were deployed? i know they supplied the north w/ all kinds of stuff but i'm not aware that troops were actually deployed. i very well could be wrong though

thanks for that upload. i'll check it out tonight when i'm home from work.

 

[El Justo]

on another note, i've dl'ed those AA units. very nice. i can imagine that there'd be a 3-fold unit path to them (n vietnam only)

civ flak------->oerlikon flak---------->rapier SAM

not sure what to call them thinking that n vietnam did not have access to these exact models.

next question: what kind of stats?

edit: one of the funniest posts i've ever seen on cfc!!!!!

Thanks Stephanie, I never knew 'aircrafts' take off. I thought after I board a jet to get away from Japan for awhile, all the turbulance was just part of the teleportation process.
Thanks Stephanie, I never knew 'aircrafts' take off. I thought after I board a jet to get away from Japan for awhile, all the turbulance was just part of the teleportation process.

Also a big thanks to Goldflash. My counting up to 10 skills have gone downhill since I graduated from preschool.

 

[El Justo]

have you zipped that file with win rar?

i made some changes...
took invisible flag away from VC
added in 88MM flak and SAM Battery (n vietnam only)
added Firebase Construction sm wonder in the s vietnam & multiplayer versions
lowered armour stats and gave them +1 hp
removed vp scoring

i also fiddled w/ the base units of time b/c the 1st era (56-64) seems to drag some. i changed it from months to weeks and made it so that the 1st 50 turns is worth 442 weeks; @ 10 techs for the era and a min of 4 turns for research, i'm hoping that this can work. i'll have to try it out. but on paper, it looks right. for the 2nd tech, it bogs down a little. each turn = 2 weeks.

i also noticed that n vietnam needs more foot units when compared to s vietnam/US. i would like to add Pathet Lao Guerilla (maybe autproduced by a sm wonder?) and Chinese Infantry (??) maybe. i have to find those naval units, too.

making all of those autoproducing buildings/wonders isn't really that much more work. it should be worth it b/c we can regulate just about how many of certain units (pattons, t-34s, t-55s) are running around the map, irregardless of whether it's a human player or AI.

 

[unscratchedfoot]

For the above mentioned AA units I simply called them AA guns and Rapier SAM until I do more research on the topic. For stats I need to test them. I'm putting the AA guns at 4 air defense and the SAM at 5 because they were quite deadly even against B-52s flying so high they could not be seen or heard. I put SAMs in the cities and at key points along the supply transportation system going south and around Hanoi which is historic. SAMs cannot be built because the Ai does not know how to deploy them. AA guns replace the flak unit for the communists. The rest get flak and later the mobile SAM's.

You didn't mention the package I uploaded. Did you look at it? I got 'my' mod up and running now with the new units and will post a screenshot tomorrow with all the new units arrayed for each side. Wyrmshadows ships look particularly good ingame. I was preparing it today but my friend called me out for eating chicken and playing car racing games against the local japs at the arcade. We drove circles around them.

Anyways, I made the sniper unit invisible and may make the navy seals unit invisible too but VC yeah should be visible with good movement. As for tanks +1hp is not enough. Here is a better set-up: APC's and light tanks +1, heavy tanks like the M60 T-54 T62 get +2. Even +1 apc, +2 light tank, +3 heavy tank is worth considering and testing I think. I did some research on tanks in Vietnam and had the war continued, both sides would have employed large numbers of tanks like in WW2 because they were hard to destroy and literally blew the jungle away with their firepower (canister shot). Just they were bad in mud so only 2 moves with no terrain move bonuses. Also, T62's were advanced at the time but were relatively easy to destroy due to their simple steel cast hull with no alloys or reactive armor on them. The Isrealis destroyed/captured hundreds of Syrian T62's with ease. There is a joke that the instructions/instrument panels in new T62's are written in both russian and hebrew.

Okay so enough chatter from me. Why dont' you post a screenshot of your mod ingame? Mine will be up tomorrow after I'm done work and my late afternoon feed. After that I will do some work on the tech chart and put in some new pictures.

 

[El Justo]

You didn't mention the package I uploaded. Did you look at it?

sure i did. did you zip it up in win rar? i can't seem to unzip it.

which graphics have you used for the navy seal unit? approximate stats?

APC's and light tanks +1, heavy tanks like the M60 T-54 T62 get +2. Even +1 apc, +2 light tank, +3 heavy tank is worth considering and testing I think.

that's what i was thinking though i didn't mention that. apc type units at +1 or even +2 and the more powerful armour @ + 3

both sides would have employed large numbers of tanks like in WW2 because they were hard to destroy and literally blew the jungle away with their firepower (canister shot). Just they were bad in mud so only 2 moves with no terrain move bonuses. Also, T62's were advanced at the time but were relatively easy to destroy due to their simple steel cast hull with no alloys or reactive armor on them.

true dat. then the t62 could have higher sats/less +hp? i will search for t62 graphics as well. i need to find more american armour for the period if we are to add of the commie armour. no? i wrote out ALL of the units in the mod so that i could get a visual on what's what. here's the list of the armour:

good guys: M113, M41, Patton, Mech Combat Engineer (not really armour but i include it anyhow)

commies: btr60, t34, t55, k63, pt76, zsu 23 (pavn one, just added) and maybe t62

Why dont' you post a screenshot of your mod ingame?

i will, probably tomorrow after i finish hanging the drywall in my basement

 

[unscratchedfoot]

You need this M60 for America's late war tank upgrade. Make sure it takes awhile to research and maybe have it autoprodded because it wasn't used very much during the Vietnam war because most were sent to Europe to counter the Soviet T54 buildup. There was a debate about sending it to Vietnam on mass but the war end came.

Also here is the list including T62 links from both Bebro and ripptide. Either tank is a hot unit and good to go. For your scenario it is hard to enter without China but you could, yet again, arrange for a few of these to trickle in during late war as part of Chinese support. I'm setting them up for regular production by China once researched.

Did you get ripptide's newer M48 tank? It looks real good ingame.

I might replace that combat engineer apc thing with pesoloco's engineer unit but I need to test first before deciding.

I think you want to rename the T55 to T54 because that's the version sent to North Vietnam as aid, and maybe change the T34 to T34/85 using the T34 unit from the play the world extras folder. Most probably you know this, but the T54, T55 and T62 were basically just upgrades of the same tank design.

I'm also adding in a whole bunch of new infantry types and testing for which ones look best. They'll be in my screenie.

Drywalling is a dusty hard job so take care and best of luck.

 

[El Justo]

added:

M24 Light Tank: precursor to M41 which it upgrades to (s vietnam only)

ZSU-23 AA tank: acts as light armour/AA unit late in the game (n vietnam only)

Pathet Lao: small wonder that autoproduces a Pathet Lao Rebel every 20 turns (n vietnam only)

Soviet Armour School: small wonder (n vietnam only) that autoproduces a T34 every 25 turns which upgrades to T54 (unbuildable)

American Armour School: small wonder (s vietnam only) that autoproduces an M48 every 25 turns which upgrades to M60 (unbuildable)

one problem, small as it may seem, is how artillery is the first thing a city attempts to build after the requisite tech is discovered. i checked the civ flags, too and i'm not sure why the default build is arty.

here is a screen shot of an M24 near the DMZ. i was hoping to capture a better shot but this is what i ended up with

 

[El Justo]

trying to figure out what naval units to add.

for the US/S Vietnam: battleship (only 1, the USS New Jersey), cruisers, destroyers and carriers as well as the brown water navy patrol boats.

order of battle ~ US Navy in Vietnam

now onto the n vietnamese navy...

 

[unscratchedfoot]

North Vietnam used torpedo boats. Snoop around cd group to find one of wyrmshadows. I'm using the 'e boat' which is the best one I could find. There may be something better there. Also give the north a mix of gunboats and patrol boats would be reasonable. I also gave them 2 types of freighters to represent their shipping lanes.

You also need these if you want an authentic mod:

http://www.redstone.army.mil/history/aviation/factsheets/oh6.html

These OH-6 "Flying eggs" were a vital part of the hunter-killer teams of one OH-6 flying low to draw fire and a Cobra Snake overhead waiting for the egg to locate targets and mark them with smoke. The Snake took care of the rest. And the egg itself is a proficient killer using a gatling gun and a side gunner. They are the smaller choppers used in the movie "Blackhawk Down" which strafed the bad guys with gatling guns.

ripptide just uploaded this at cd group along with a real nice Chinook transport chopper. I'm giving America 3-5 chinooks & eggs at the start but both are unbuildable so the Ai doesn't get its build orders confused.

 

[El Justo]

that "egg" is cool looking . so, 'detect invisible' air unit w/ low stats?

i've managed to get about 70 turns in on the mod as s vietnam @ monarch.

~the base unit of time experiment was a success. i finished my last tech of the 1st era (56-64) in the first weeks of 1965.
~the ai hasn't really launched any significant assault. i've lost only 3 villages; all of them in the central highlands area; though a harder level would surely make a difference.
~nva infantry relentlessly pillaged my improvements. it began to get annoying so i'm considering reserving the 'pillage' flag to armour only. no?
~Week 25, 1965: 2 of my A1 Skyraiders were shot down in the same turn by a SAM Battery (bebro's rapier) over Ciphu (iron triangle area).

some more screenies tomorrow

 

[El Justo]

here's a shot of some nva infantry moving southward

 

[unscratchedfoot]

That is a good idea to make soldiers not able to pillage (for both sides to be fair) so arty/bombers are needed to destroy terrain improvements. I dont' remember the VC or GI's destroying rice paddies and roads in real life, probably cause they were more concerned with keeping their skins intact. I'm adding the AMX13 tank to Cambodia and Thailand at the start of the game (unbuildable).

Looking at your pictures, spreading the VC along like that is good. Here are many questions:

Why do some have 3hp and others have 4hp?
Did you put the rifle VC at -1hp?
Are you leaving your barracks set to producing veteran units?
What unit is that defending the southern cities?
What are you using Smoking Mirror's black partisan for? I notice he's on the good guys' side so I'm really wondering.


Here's a newpaper article which talks about navies and land fighting on a slightly more active day of war. It gives a good idea of relative casualties. It's interesting to note that the American casualties are quite similar to those in Iraq right now, about 1-2 soldiers lost per day. But the Vietnam War is so much more interesting than Iraq.
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/1230/okycity/042072ap.htm

 

[El Justo]

yes, barracks improvement makes them vets and the ones who aren't veteran came form towns w/out barracks.

no, VC aren't -1 hp.

that unit you're referring to in the s vietnam villages is a Militia unit which is immobile. (Dom Pedro's Battlefield Asia unit pack...korean rifleman).

the partisan unit is the Popular Force unit available to s vietnam only. they were sort of like a civil guard and were referred to as 'Ruff-Puffs' (along w/ the Regional Force unit).

i'll check out that article. thanks

 

[unscratchedfoot]

El Pasta, you should try a game with barracks which don't make units vets cause "veteran" means soldiers who've had real combat experience, not green recruits. The game is more interesting cause you get 2 levels of experience instead of one, and make each one add on 2 hp's is better so elite units become valuable. Instead, I'm making barracks reduce war weariness and autoproduce heavymachinegunners once per 20 rounds.
I'm adding a marine sniper and a regular sniper. I think you may have too many obsolete rifle units in your game. I'm testing scores of modern troops to replace the bolt action riflemen, except for the regular sniper. You need to get the unit 'Modern Soldier' for your mod. It looks really good ingame.

 

[El Justo]

more playtesting...

i've made it all the way to week 12, 1966. this is the 2nd era (65-75) where the base unit of time is 2 wks for each turn. the only drawbacks thus far are the aforementioned pillaging problems, the huge amounts of enemy mvmt during their turns and the few "Missing entry...". thank God for autosave this is good though b/c i can filter out all of the BS bugs and all.

i've just built the Air Cavalry, US Army Barracks and Marine Corps Barracks sm wonders which will autoproduce the US ground troops.

more observations: the added hp to the armour is working nicely, at least as far as defense is concerned. the offensive output is poor but this is expected. however, the ai hasn't built any (at least i haven't seem them) probably b/c of the low stats.

i should probably lower the air defense stats for the AA units. the SAM Battery (7 air def, rapier) is decimating my airforce. it seems that they're knocking out my planes about every other sortie. this is unaccaptable.

what is your opinion regarding US carriers? as you know, there were many in service on the Gulf (tonkin) & S China Sea. they could be autoproduced or they could be an upgrade for a preplaced sea unit. however, the ai would have a hard time handling the 'load' aspect of the carrier . but, for all other sea units i had an idea. i was thinking of adding in the USS New Jersey (my home state btw ) but not from the beginning. instead, pre-place a battleship (or any other sea unit for that matter) in a s vietnamese coastal city. flag it as immobile w/ no bombardment/attack, etc stats. then, and only when a certain tech is discovered, make that preplaced sea unit upgradable to the USS New Jersey (unbuildable and the only USS NJ; there was afterall only 1 USS NJ). i've done this before in a personal mod and the ai handles it well; ie, the unit is upgraded.

 

[unscratchedfoot]

more playtesting...

i've made it all the way to week 12, 1966. this is the 2nd era (65-75) where the base unit of time is 2 wks for each turn. the only drawbacks thus far are the aforementioned pillaging problems, the huge amounts of enemy mvmt during their turns and the few "Missing entry...". thank God for autosave this is good though b/c i can filter out all of the BS bugs and all. You can adjust your preferences to not show enemy moves and their movements will be instantaneous, or read a comic book. To avoid the missing entry pain, start a game in DEBUG and test all the units at one time using shift F1.

i've just built the Air Cavalry, US Army Barracks and Marine Corps Barracks sm wonders which will autoproduce the US ground troops.

more observations: the added hp to the armour is working nicely, at least as far as defense is concerned. the offensive output is poor but this is expected. however, the ai hasn't built any (at least i haven't seem them) probably b/c of the low stats. The Ai can build armor? If the armor has the highest attack stat and the strategy 'offense' is flagged, and in the civ editor flag build a lot of offense, then the Ai will build heaps of them. I think its better to autoproduce the armor cause in reality the Southeast Asians built no armor, only got donations.


i should probably lower the air defense stats for the AA units. the SAM Battery (7 air def, rapier) is decimating my airforce. it seems that they're knocking out my planes about every other sortie. this is unaccaptable. I'm setting them to 3, 4 or 5 depending on type.


what is your opinion regarding US carriers? as you know, there were many in service on the Gulf (tonkin) & S China Sea. they could be autoproduced AAAAhhhh no!!
or they could be an upgrade for a preplaced sea unit. however, the ai would have a hard time handling the 'load' aspect of the carrier . but, for all other sea units i had an idea. i was thinking of adding in the USS New Jersey (my home state btw ) but not from the beginning. instead, pre-place a battleship (or any other sea unit for that matter) in a s vietnamese coastal city. flag it as immobile w/ no bombardment/attack, etc stats. then, and only when a certain tech is discovered, make that preplaced sea unit upgradable to the USS New Jersey (unbuildable and the only USS NJ; there was afterall only 1 USS NJ). i've done this before in a personal mod and the ai handles it well; ie, the unit is upgraded. If you want go ahead but it sounds like a lot of work when you could just place it on the map at the start.

Did you see my previous message above?