SCENARIO DEVELOPMENT THREAD: The Second Indochina War

[El Justo]

on a sidenote, the scenario loads up really quick and the turns are fast as well. this is good

 

[Sarevok]

so far, i have the standard culture producing improvements (those that would apply to vietnam) for both civs. however, for the north, they have an immense advantage w/ "VC Hamlet" (+10 culture & autoproduces Viet Cong), "NLF Barracks" (+10 culture & autoproduces NLF Infantry) and "Propaganda Station" (+10 culture) to name a few. N Vietnamese wonders also produce more culture than the s vietnamese wonders.

i also adjusted the corruption level on S Vietnam to "rampant"; which in reality, it was.

most US units (A-1 Skyraider, M107 & 155MM Howitzer being the exceptions) are autoproduced by Small Wonders.

after playtesting some on Deity level as S Vietnam, i was absolutely blitzed by the NVA Infantry and they took about half of s vietnam within 40 turns. this seems a bit much. i might have to reduce the stat advantage for the n vietnam units. thus giving n vietnam a manpower advantage rather than both manpower & stat advantage.

weaken them slightly, or make the US a bit more potent.

 

[El Justo]

good point Sarevok. i've lowered the A/D of the NVA Infantry to match that of the ARVN Infantry (6A/8D). the NVA Inf. still has a +1 mvmt advantage (3 mvmt) over it's S Vietnamese counterpart. the high mvmt stats are necessary b/c the scen goes by months and it seems unrealistic to have a unit move only 1 tile at a time when the time elapsed is 4+ weeks.

i've added 2 new worker units:
S Vietnamese Worker: 75% worker rate
N Vietnamese Porter: 100% worker rate and can transport 2 units (only units that are flagged w/ 'load' flag; ie artillery, rocket launcher and flak units (2) )
this is to simulate the tremendous supply convoys that went from the north down into the south during the war. i just wish that there was a 'Bicycler' unit out there so as to really capture the authenticity of the N Vietnam Porter. after all, they would transport artillery that was broken down into small pieces by bike over the HCM Trail. truly amazing if you've ever seen it.

 

[El Justo]

i have also considered raising the cost for the 1st tech, Military Tradition tech (allows for creation of ARVN/NVA infantry units) so i can ensure that the pre-ARVN/NVA units are utilized more (sv-Popular Force/Regional Force...nv-PAVN Irregular/Viet Minh).

i am in the preliminary stages of experimenting with adding custom music to the scenario such as 1960s era music. i'll have to play around with it some and find a suitable .wav file

 

[El Justo]

i was successful at putting in the custom .wav file for the era specific music. lemme say how cool it was to hear jimi hendrix's "Machine Gun" wailin' in the background while I flew my A26s over n vietnam.
not sure if i'd include it in the dl but i'd post it nonetheless.

i added 2 more units and 1 new sm wonder

Sniper: N Vietnam only. unbuildable and autroproduced by Sniper Tactics sm wonder. 3mvmt/2A/3D. flagged as invisible, bombard (2 tile range & 4 ROF)

A26 light/covert bomber: S Vietnam only. buildable but very expensive

Sniper Tactics (sm wonder): N Vietnam only. autoproduces Snipe unit every 15 turns

 

[El Justo]

wow. that custom music is absolutley awesome. hearing lyrics while i fire my artillery is a little weird but it's a heck of a lot better than hearing that dang civ music.
i've noticed that the 1st era of the SICW scen works of the Industrial era background music and it simply cycles through 4 different .wav files. knowing this, i've inserted all kinds of compatable .wav files (128 kbps) and they play in a random order. kind of. the 1st 3 play in order and then the 2 nd track repeated 3 times in the 4 slot and then onto the 4th track in the 7 slot.

i've realized that i can't post any copyrighted files here so i would suggest to anyone who would want to change the music in any civ scenario to go to shareaza.com and find there own .wav files. of course, i'd be happy to explain how its done. it's actually quite simple.

songs that could be used in the first era (1956-1964)
Jailhouse Rock by Elvis Presley
Summer Wind by Frank Sinatra
I Wanna Hold Your Hand by the Beattles

2nd era (1965-1973)
Ride of the Valkyries by Budapest Symphony (Apocalypse Now soundtrack)
Machine Gun & Third Stone From the Sun by Jimi Hendrix

 

[Sarevok]

I suppose that would be an interesting flavor, but knowing sound flies as I do, at best those music files will be 3MB each.

 

[El Justo]

well, i know i won't want to add to the size of what the DL will eventually be. that's for sure. plus, those mp3 files are copyrighted and AFAIK, we can't post copyrighted material here on cfc.
but, i thought i'd mention it that it could make it more interesting for anyone who likes to play around w/ customizing their civ3c experience.
most recently added music:
instrumental mp3 files from Full Metal Jacket:
Leonard by Abigail Mead. if you're familiar w/ the movie, it's when pyle shoots himself. the music is kind of creepy.
Ruins by Abigail Mead: it's when they're in Hue City amidst all of the rubble
Sniper by Abigail Mead: another creepy one. it's when they're being picked off by the chick sniper in hue city.

my next step is to organize the folders for an upload. not sure how long it'll take but i'll chip away at it to decrease the DL size.

 

[unscratchedfoot]

Should be good. What terrain mods are you using? I like the deep green effect which unfortunately isn't included in the conquest snoopy packs.

Why are you giving the north better attack/defense/movement? Historically, the US achieved between a 10:1 up to a 20:1 kill ratio in Vietnam, with the ratio improving over the course of the war as the Americans slowly got the upper hand and improved their fire support tactics. The NVA found it pretty much impossible to overrun a US base using human wave attacks supported by mortars. It just got them killed in heaps. Also, Americans had the mobility advantage, with air mobility. Are you using the blackhawk chopper for an air transport? I know the blackhawk is newer, but it looks really cool and could pass for something used in Vietnam with a rename. There's a Cobra also available, the main gunship used in Vietnam. I prefer to have choppers as air units, not land, so they aren't blocked by land units which is unrealistic and can go over water.

Just a bunch of yibber-yabber from me. Please keep going with your scenario.

 

[El Justo]

i've been using Cordy's Rocky Terrain w/ the dark/lush green. It looks real nice w/ all the jungle and all.

as for the A/D/M of the nv units, i've had a tough time finding the right balance. i don't want to give them an A/D advantage over the SV units and definitely not over the US units (autoproduced by small wonders). i've playtested about 65 turns now as s vietnam and those nva infantry units are overruninng my defenses. it's just too much w/ the A/D advantage. so i think that i will adjust those (A/D) no.s accordingly

the one aspect that should be focused on is the mvmt advantage of the NV units. the +1 advantage in mvmt is key and in reality, it enabled the Viet Cong and NLF Infantry to perform hit and run tactics and slip back into the jungle.

i'm torn on the air or land flag for the heli units. i kind of like them flagged as land units with high A, low D and a pretty high mvmt (all terrain as roads). but i would switch it back if i had a good reason to do so. bodies of water do not really come into play here b/c the map is of n and s vietnam only. i mean, the gulf of tonkin and the south china sea are there. but it's not like they're hindering mvmt.

thanks for your thoughts...the scenario should be finished in the next few days. (i hope)

 

[unscratchedfoot]

I didn't know Cordy made terrain that good looking. I'll have to look for it.

Remember that the AI is programmed to only produce one type of unit in each class based on the highest stat for the AI strategy pertaining to that unit. Therefore if you make choppers land units with high attack values, then that's the only ground attack unit the AI will produce so forget tanks and combat engineers. Also choppers are, in fact, air units not ground units and should be able to fly over ground units without being impeded.

Also you didn't respond to my query about your NVA units having higher stats than US units. Basically its NVA numbers and stealth vs superior US firepower. Sure the gooks should have higher ground movement because of their very adept use of trails, tunnels and bicycles, but unit for unit, the US were far stronger in both attack and defense. The gooks had to use mobile attacks and defense cause they knew that when the US moved into an area it quickly became theirs and static resistance was futile. In turn, the NVA was far stronger unit for unit than any other country in the region, especially compared to the near helpless South Vietnamese who had trouble holding their own against jungle monkeys looking for bananas.

Did you put in B-52s? There are 2 really nice ones for download. They just need proper sounds added to them. What about the Cobra? Wyrmshadow made one. I think he also made the best B-52 but I can't remember for sure who made it.

Good luck with the scenario and no need to rush it. As is probably obvious, the Vietnam era is my favorite.

 

[El Justo]

I didn't know Cordy made terrain that good looking. I'll have to look for it.

cordy's terrain pack is pretty nice, especially for the lushness of SE Asia. someone bumped his thread in the graphics forum not too long ago. it's also in the terrain/modpack sticky thread, too. fyi: it was made for vanilla civ3 and you'll have to copy the LM Terrain pcx (and another which i can't remember right now) out of the conquests folder. no biggie though. just took a hot second.

Also you didn't respond to my query about your NVA units having higher stats than US units.

as for the nva stats in comparison to the US units, i've thought of giving the standard US ground units a +2 advantage in A/D. here's a hypothetical listing:
remember that all US/Australian/S Korean units are autoproduced from small wonders.

S Vietnam/ARVN/SEATO Ground/Foot Units

Militia: 1A/5D/0 mvmt ~immobile
Regional Force: 6A/4D/2
Popular Force: 4A/6D/2
ARVN Infantry:6A/7D/2
ARVN Marine:7A/6D/2
ARVN Airborne Infantry: 6A/7D/2 ~airdrop flag
Mortar: can't remember the stats
US GI: 8A/10D/2
US Marine: 10A/8D/2
AATTV Officer (Australia): 9A/9D/2
S Korean Infantry: 7A/8D/2
Green Beret: 10A/10/D/2 (not autoproduced, instead, it's an upgrade for the American Advisor which is autoproduced from MACV small wonder)

N Vietnam Ground/Foot Units

Militia: same as above
Viet Minh: 6A/4D/3 mvmt ~ unbuildable and preplaced on map (scenario starts in July 1956 so these dudes were around)
PAVN Irregular: 4A/6D/3
NVA Infantry: 6A/7D/3
Viet Cong: 7A/6D/3; invisible flag ~ unbuildable; autoproduced by VC Hamlet improvement (not a small wonder & buildable by every N Vietnam city)
NLF Infantry: 7A/6D/3; stealth flag ~ unbuildable; autoproduced by NLF Barracks improvement (not a small wonder & buildable by every N Vietnam city)
Mortar: i forget the stats; artillery flag
SA7 RPG: i forget the stats; artillery flag

i think that's it for the foot units.

lest we not forget that the Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) was one of the most heavilly equipped armies in the world at this time. now the desertion rates and the horrific corruption is another matter altogether. but as far as ARVN firepower, they were ar least on par with the North. the best way to simulate this would be to make the NV units cheaper to build and the SV units more expensive. any suggestions on this are welcomed.

yes. b-52s are included. a short list of all air units (all s vietnam except MiGs):

T-28 Recon: unbuildable and preplaced (2 total) in saigon
A-1: med range bomber; buildable
A-27: upgrade for A-1; buildable
B-52: heavy bomber; autoproduced from small wonder
Napalm Bomber: heaviest bomber in the game;autoproduced from small wonder
F 100 Super Sabre: autoproduced from small wonder
F 4 Phantom: autoproduced from small wonder
UH 1 Huey: autoproduced from small wonder
Cobra: autoproduced from small wonder

MiG 15: autoproduced from small wonder
MiG 21: upgrade for Soviet Advisor unit

N vietnam has a few (3 i think) Flak/air defense type units to build also.

i think that's it for the air units.

i've actually been working on this scenario (and the completed vietnam war scen w/ luddi vii) for quite some time now (a few months). thanks for the input and keep it comin'

 

[unscratchedfoot]

Wow, sounds cool. It looks pretty good. Just wondering why you made napalm bombers stronger than B-52's. You know about arc light strikes right? The BUFF's loaded with tons of bombs used to turn entire lush jungly valleys into smoldering wastelands with a single strike and killed every living thing in it, be it plant, animal, NVA or unlucky American recon patrol. Also there was Nixon's Operation Rolling Thunder which churned up entire countrysides of North Vietnam with B-52's. Though particularly nasty, napalm was dropped from small jets or propeller planes and hit a narrow area of like 50 metres long or so and a few metres wide so it was far less feared by the NVA than B-52 arc light strikes. The huge bombers had a disadvantage in that they had to fly from Guam and they were few in numbers compared to the lighter jets based in South Vietnam.

 

[El Justo]

cool pics...
good point about the b52 and napalm bomber. maybe i'll change the ROF on the 2 and make the b52 higher. the US managed to drop more bombs (tonnage) in vietnam (south&north) than the whole WWII combined!

 

[El Justo]

i could probably use some help with science/happiness slider and the gold/turn ratio. i want to make it hard for S Vietnam to balance happiness with research/production. any suggestions or methods to employ here?

 

[unscratchedfoot]

You could take out cathedrals to reduce happiness. I'm thinking about replacing temples/cathedrals with something more appropriate to represent culture in Vietnam.

As for your stats, if the green beret is coming out regularly, I would make the stats 12/12/3 (or 11/13/3) or even -1hp with 13/13/3 to represent small elite squads. As you got them now, they are identical to gi's and marines cause you won't notice a 1 point of stat difference when playing.

As for the NVA and Vietcong stats, they should be almost the same as the Americans and perhaps one point less on attack/defense to represent poorer tactics. They were fairly good at ambushes, booby traps, breaching defensive works with sappers, small firefights using AK-47s but were weak at big attacks and used human wave tactics resulting in high body counts. Most of their losses were incurred by US support fire from aircraft and arty so make sure your support unit stats are fairly strong for the US with good range, but make the soldier stats close.

ARVN South Korean troops were very poor and often left the battlefield and returned home instead of fighting when NVA were approaching. So I figure they should have stats about 2 points lower on att/def than the NVA and Vietcong. So maybe add +2 to the above stats for both NVA and Vietcong and leave the US and ARVN stats the same should be better, except for the green beret as mentioned. If you make the NVA too weak then the scenario will be too easy for the US player to win and also the Ai will avoid fighting units which are too strong. These are just my ideas about it based on what I've read about the war.

 

[El Justo]

i've decided to delay the release so i can make some changes.

You could take out cathedrals to reduce happiness. I'm thinking about replacing temples/cathedrals with something more appropriate to represent culture in Vietnam.

temples and churches, IMHO, should be in. Catholocism and Budhism were the main religions in nam i think.

As for your stats, if the green beret is coming out regularly, I would make the stats 12/12/3 (or 11/13/3) or even -1hp with 13/13/3 to represent small elite squads. As you got them now, they are identical to gi's and marines cause you won't notice a 1 point of stat difference when playing.

the green beret is an upgrade unit for the American Advisor which is autoproduced by the MACV small wonder. good point on the stats. i shall use your suggestions.

As for the NVA and Vietcong stats, they should be almost the same as the Americans and perhaps one point less on attack/defense to represent poorer tactics. They were fairly good at ambushes, booby traps, breaching defensive works with sappers, small firefights using AK-47s but were weak at big attacks and used human wave tactics resulting in high body counts. Most of their losses were incurred by US support fire from aircraft and arty so make sure your support unit stats are fairly strong for the US with good range, but make the soldier stats close.

true 'dat i'll have to look at the comparisons a little closer.

ARVN South Korean troops were very poor and often left the battlefield and returned home instead of fighting when NVA were approaching. So I figure they should have stats about 2 points lower on att/def than the NVA and Vietcong. So maybe add +2 to the above stats for both NVA and Vietcong and leave the US and ARVN stats the same should be better, except for the green beret as mentioned. If you make the NVA too weak then the scenario will be too easy for the US player to win and also the Ai will avoid fighting units which are too strong. These are just my ideas about it based on what I've read about the war.

Cowboy in Full Metal Jacket: "How bout an ARVN rifle? Never fired and only dropped once"
very true. i agree that we shouldn't make it too easy for the South. but i've noticed in the first 50 turns or so that the north sends in wave after wave and took about 2/3 of s vietnam before the US is even involved. so, this has to be considered. i was under the assumption that ARVN units would cost more than their n vietnam counterparts. thus giving the north a manpower advantage. of course, i would change this set up if i can find the right balance.

 

[unscratchedfoot]

How often are those barracks putting out units? What's it like having Vietcong invisible? You can never see them even when fighting them right? I'm considering dropping the invisible flag for them. I reckon the US had trouble squashing them because they were so slippery rather than invisible, but they were pretty good at hiding. It's iffy but I think I'm gonna go visible for them.

If you need info about PAVN armor then here is a good site: http://www.gruntonline.com/Order of Battle/PAVN/PAVN_armour1.htm

 

[El Justo]

How often are those barracks putting out units?

well, for the n vietnam buildings that autoproduce units, they are every 8 turns (i think). remember that the n vietnam improvements are buildable by all of the cities in the north while the autoproducing improvements for the south are small wonders and autoproduce anywhere from 2 to 10 turns.

What's it like having Vietcong invisible?

it's a little weird i guess but i think that the invisible flag should be used by at least one of the n vietnam ground units. also, NLF Infantry has the stealth flag.

cool PAVN website. i may be looking for new armoured units to add b/c of it.

also, i've made three different biq files for the scen:
- a S Vietnam version (human player is S V)
- a N Vietnam version
- a Multiplayer version

basically, if you play the s vietnam version, many of the autoproduced units like sea units and air/light armour/APC type units are buildable. also, in the s vietnam version, the human player can build the Fire Base unit which is immobile and flagged as a foot unit and is able to be loaded and transported by the huey and cobra.
in the n vietnam version, the same goes for armour/naval units as well as the ability to build the Land Mine unit which is immobile only able to be loaded & transported by the Viet Cong unit.
the multiplayer version has all of these features included so that both human players can partake.

 

[El Justo]

i found this one by ripptide at cdg

zsu-23