scenario editor?????

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by Gottesfreunde
The explanation given for doing an OS X only version was to ensure the editor could get out sooner--at that time, it was promised by April 2002.

No release date for the editor was ever "promised" by anyone. I recall making a few guesses and specifically labelling them as such, but I'm 100% sure there were never any promises. If you read it as such, you misread.

 

[Grey Randall]

Brad...

None of this is directed towards you in any way shape or form.. We know your hands were tied.

 

[Beamup]

Yeah right. I'll believe it when I see it. Kind of like the N64 I bought two weeks ago that the incompetent idiots still can't manage to get to me.

 

[Trabpukcip]

I still don't beleive it...

 

[jbouklas]

This is absurd. If a company is going to publish a software title, it should follow through on it. Waiting all this time for an editor, which (if I understand this correctly) is more or less done, and has been in that state for many months, is absurd. In general, don't start something if you have no intention of finishing it. I paid good money for this piece of software ($45), which is about $20 more than if I bought the PC version of it. OK, so I paid a premium for this software because it is for the Mac. Annoying, but I'll live. But, since I'm paying the full price, I expect the full product. To have to wait so long for a fairly essential part of the game isn't right. When I bought this game, I expected it to be updated and equivalent to the PC version. Instead, I find that my $45 doesn't mean as much for a Mac title as a PC title, because Macs only have 3% of the market. As a customer, I am angry. I paid the full price for this title, and I expect (for one thing) this scenario editor. Again, if you want to develop a Mac title, either do it correctly or not at all.

Sorry if this has been said a thousand times before.

-Jim

 

[Gottesfreunde]

i have not meant any of my comments to be directed specifically toward you Brad. Although i am aware that any company is made up of individuals who work within it. Perhaps "promised" is too strong a word? What i do recall is discussion that the editor was due to be out by April 2002--whether this was a promise or an estimation, i do recall that even when i read that it was about a month or two away at that time. My disappointment with this game is only heightened further by observation that we are begging for something that i don't feel we should have to beg for. The product should have been provided expeditiously, if this meant getting other programmers on the task, this should have happened. Any argument that MacSoft, et. al., should not be held responsible for this is sheer nonsense--and utimately of little consequence. As a paying customer i want what i paid for. i paid for the editor. i want the same program that the PC user has. Since it is evident that MacSoft couldn't provide me with such a product i have vowed that they will not get any more of my money with which to shaft me with a second rate one--however, with the sale of the company, i am sure this only assists with further shifting of responsiblity, and i will wait and see what happens. i have said it already... it is just sheer lunacy that we are begging for a product here that is way over due and is not even up to par. i am incredibly disappointed and frustrated on practically every level i could be with this game. Understanding that resources are as they are, i would prefer a good product, a supported product to a poorly supported one. If i am going to pay more for a game to run on my Mac, i want it to have everything that it has when it runs on the PC. So if the problem is that not enough people buy Mac games to make supporting them appropriately viable, but failure to support them appropriately (parity issues) abounds and less people purchase them i don't see a brighter future for gaming companies or games on the Mac, and i see this as a problem that threatens the Mac itself. So if a game can't be given parity and supported well, it should be left to another company to port or be not ported at all. Anything else, i think, only further damages the reputation of the platform, angers the user, and damages the integrity of the company that ported it.

 

[Beamup]

Hey Grey, I just noticed the title of your post above - "Holy Sheep Dip." Any connection there to the brand of scotch called Old Sheep Dip (or maybe Aulde Sheepe Dippe, not sure which spelling is used)? Supposed to be really good and expensive stuff despite the name.

(My dad is rather the scotch fan, I can't stand it personally.)

 

[jbouklas]

I agree 100%, Gottesfreunde. Not buying any games published by this second-rate company is a very good idea. This is the power that we consumers have. Many consumers don't realize this: we have the power to make or break companies! If consumers are not satisfied with a company, they go to another. This is a perfect example. If MacSoft doesn't deliver, then they can't exist as a company. I'll take my business elsewhere. When/if they shape up, I'll be back, giving them my money. This is how the American economy is run. I urge many other dissatisfied customers to boycott MacSoft products until they are satisfied once again with their products/service. This is the power of the consumer. It speaks much louder than a couple of nasty messages. The truth is, we have the power to shut down companies, or make them incredibly profitable. If this company wants to stay afloat, it will serve its customers.

-Jim

 

[ejday]

Originally posted by jbouklas
...I urge many other dissatisfied customers to boycott MacSoft...

Whew. Tough crowd tonight.

Can't say Jim is wrong, he's not. OTOH, the Mac community itself is a cottage industry subset of personal computing. It works by a different set of rules.

In one respect, Mac hardware and software practices consistently meet higher standards, hence the fanatical following. The tradeoff is that the business model has to be "massaged", if you will. If you want huge profits and standard behaviors from your economic formulas, you have to go to the bigger, looser, less controlled markets. In this case, you have to go sludge around the WinTel market. Some will, some have, some probably won't return.

Frustration is running high around here, myself included. There are MacFanatics and there are CivFanatics. Here, in this little corner of the forums, you get us crossbreeds that exhibit both the best -- and the worst -- that this combination has to offer.

So, MacSoft, you do indeed have to learn how to play with the big boys. As the Mac platform grows into the market share that OS X can offer, you're going to see some real-world loss of patience. You've probably opened a few toxic emails about this already, but it becomes something even more painful when shareholders and software reviewers handicap you before you even get out of the gate.

MacSoft -- even if we don't see products, let's see some honest communication... at least a token effort to step out from behind that veil of "Say nothing rather than disappoint." I can guarantee you, we seen all the "nothing" we can handle.

 

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by Gottesfreunde So if a game can't be given parity and supported well, it should be left to another company to port or be not ported at all.

If what you propose came to pass, we would be left without the Quake-based games (no level editors and very stripped down mod SDKs), the Unreal-based games, Civ3, SMAC (no faction editor), Tomb Raiders 1-4 (only 5 included the level editor), Dungeon Siege and a host of others. If your definition of parity included PC-Mac network interoperability, then that list would dwindle even further. About all you'd be left with would be Blizzard titles, The Sims, Monopoly Casino and Survivor. While I think voting with your wallet is comendable, you better prepare yourself for the reality of the situation. Of course if more people follow your lead, it presents a Catch-22 - less people buying Mac games means less Mac games, and the ones left being developed at lower cost.

 

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by jbouklas
If consumers are not satisfied with a company, they go to another.

So what other companies do you have in mind? I'd like to point out that MacSoft did buck the trend here and actually committed to delivering an editor. Only one other company on the Mac does that - Blizzard. Given that they publish one (very good to excellent) game every few years, that doesn't leave you with much alternative choice.

Granted the editor is way, way late, but talk of boycotting MacSoft because of this seems kinda wacky when the general rule on the Mac - by far - is for the publisher to not even budget for an editor at all!

 

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by ejday
As the Mac platform grows into the market share that OS X can offer, you're going to see some real-world loss of patience.

I'd like to point out that Mac market share has been slowly but consistently shrinking since the introduction of OSX (OSX is probably not the reason why, but that's no matter). You can witness the carnage first-hand by examining the sales breakdown of total Mac computers in Apple's quarterly financial reports over the course of the last several years. Back in the mid-90's, Apple was consistently moving 1 million Macs a quarter. Now they're averaging around 700k - 750k. I don't know exactly why it's stayed so flat - perhaps the "switchers" are just barely counteracting Mac faithful who have lost the faith, so to speak.

 

[Txurce]

I agree that OSX will continue to do nothing to bring meaningful market share back to the Mac. Unless Apple comes up with something people can't do without - an unlikely possibility - their market share will stay where it is: below the threshold of a bounce. As EJ intimated, this makes for different rules.

I wish I could play the saved games that PC players post, but I can't (yet), because Macs don't have the 1.29 upgrade. I'd prefer that to an editor, and so did 2/3 of those who responded to a poll on this forum. On the other hand, Macsoft have already brought out several Civ3 patches that went far beyond basic game stability - something there was no compact with the customer to do. Is anyone here selling their Macs because Apple charged them for Jaguar after they took the plunge on the original, subpar OSX? I think that is more reprehensible than Macsoft bringing out an editor, however late, knowing that - at least in the short run - it will not make them any money.

In the end, I think I am not so frustrated with the absence of 1.29, PTW, or an editor for the Mac because Civ3 version 1.21 is an amazing, addictive game, and the Mac is my favorite computer. Otherwise, I'd get a PC and play 1.29 and PTW.

We are seemingly unanimous on this point.

 

[tao]

Originally posted by jbouklas
This is absurd. .... I paid good money for this piece of software ($45), which is about $20 more than if I bought the PC version of it.

I bought my copy for Euro 25 on eBay
OK the PC version I got for Euro 23.

OK, so I paid a premium for this software because it is for the Mac. Annoying, but I'll live. But, since I'm paying the full price, I expect the full product. To have to wait so long for a fairly essential part of the game isn't right. When I bought this game, I expected it to be updated and equivalent to the PC version.

Tell this also Microsoft regarding Office .....

 

[Trabpukcip]

When you buy a mac, well unless your a total idiot, you expect to have less from games... Tell me if I'm wrong, but everybody knows that games are on the PC. And those who still buy a mac knows what they are getting... so stop complaning...

And for my part, I beleive the problem of the mac platform these days is the price. The commun people have no reason to buy a mac when they can get a PC as powerfull for half the price!

 

[Gottesfreunde]

Even though the Mac market may be shrinking i can say that they have greater brand loyalty than any other company i know of. i think they accomplished this through steadfast commitment to quality. Although i often dislike moves made by Apple and i have even disliked products they have put out, they remain even in the face of those mishaps, far above the competition in my personal view. This will ensure that when i go to purchase more computers for main use, they will be Macs.

If companies commited themselves to quality then i think that they could find the same loyalty from consumers.

i am not really concerned what other companies do, or what editors come with what when i am not purchasing from them. i am concerned about Civ III because i bought *this* game. SMAC had a scenario editor built into it, i was not aware of another one, the one built into the game satisfied my purposes quite handsomely and still does. The Sims games, although there are editors for them, they are created by fans rather than the company. If the games came with an editor and this was not ported by Aspyr, i would not purchase the title from them.

i am not suggesting a boycott of MacSoft. i am only saying that i am not going to give them any more of my money until i am positive the game i purchase is going to be supported appropriately and have the same additional components i see on the PC where necessary. i have shown through my purchases that i am willing to pay a premium to get what i want from them. If MacSoft or any other company wants to cut corners then the risk they are taking is that the consumer will be more aware the next time they go and spend money at a store.

i have never really paid attention to the name of the company that ported a game i wanted, i paid attention to the title of the game. What this fiasco has done, however, is it has made the name "MacSoft" stand out in my mind. And this has not been too good by way of my purchasing of titles i have seen and been drawn to with the MacSoft logo on them.

What i know, of myself, is that had this game come with the editor, and kept parity... had this whole fiasco NOT occured, i would now own Stronghold and i would have on order Master of Orion III. i would have done this without thought to quality as i would have taken that for granted, i would have simply bought them because they look cool. i did not purchase Stronghold and i will not purchase MOO3 until i am positive that things are going well with that game from others who do purchase it.

i rarely give thought to the computer i am getting from Apple. When i want another, i automatically go to them because after owning many of them over the years i have found they make a quality product. When i see the Apple logo, this is what it means to me. When Apple fails to make a quality product, i am disturbed because i know they generally DO make quality products.

So, i fully understand what is being said about most games not coming with enhancements that PC's come with. i was not entirely aware of this until Civ III came along. Although add-on packs to games often do not make it to the Mac, i did not pay for them either (such as the Civ II expansion) It is just that now that i fully DO know this NOW, i am more picky with my purchases and because of that MacSoft will be slow to get money from me, if it gets it at all. Because now, the MacSoft name indicates to me "buyer beware".

i don't want to hurt MacSoft through witholding my purchases from them. i simply don't want to waste my money. So if more and more people begin to feel the way that i do i can't see how this would be any good for the company, and i don't see how this would benefit the Mac platform to have yet another game company going under. However, i can't be responsible for that and i'm not going to go out and make a purchase simply on the basis of charity or as a show of support, i'm not that altruistic.

 

[Grey Randall]

I didn't intend it to have any relation to scotch (that fine elixir of the gods)

Aulde Sheep dip? neve rheard of it.. I tend to drink scotch that meets the following requirements

1) Single Malt
2) Must see at least 2 wooden casks
3) It must be old enough to vote
4) I have to pick peat out of my teeth with every sip!

 

[Gottesfreunde]

Trab...
The person who purchases a Mac expects that they are getting a well crafted product for the premium price they are paying.

i, as a Mac user, do not expect to get less of or out of games, i only expect to have a smaller selection. i am comfortable with this as there are few games that i get. i do expect to be flooded with useless software on the PC and to have to wade through miles of crap to get to the quality stuff, a headache i am thankfully and for the most part, saved from by merit of owning a Mac.

Further, generally when i am buying a Mac i do indeed know what i am getting. Anytime i have purchased a PC it has been a crap shoot, and i mean that literally almost...

Finally, you get--in most instances at least--what you pay for. If, as a "common person" you want champagne, but can only afford beer, then i don't think there is much of a question regarding what you will be drinking in that regard. That does not, however, make the beer as nice on the palette as the champagne, nor the buzz any better.

Finally, PC's indeed do have a great deal of speed, it just so happens that the darn operating system has to jump in your face at every single turn like a spoiled three year old so games are practically the best use for such a system, wouldn't you say? And, of course, bloated companies with just as bloated IT departments with personnel who have a greater need to look busy than to actually get real work done.

The issue here is parity and quality of product, a subject that could, argueably, be moot for a PC user, true. The latter at least, something that many Mac users have the advantage of taking for granted and therefore not so moot when we are faced with its absence in a product.

So i am not complaining because my beer tastes like beer. i am complaining because what i expected to be champagne is actually beer.

 

[jbouklas]

MacSoft is not doing the world a favor by porting these games. MacSoft is a business. It ports games to Mac to get the profits from it. Obviously, they find it not incredibly profitable, therefore not worth much of their time. That's one way to run a company. Another way is to make an outstanding product and watch people flock to it. I prefer the latter way to run a business. A good point was made here: what competition? It is an unfortunate situation. I can't buy Civ3 Mac from another company. I'm stuck in this monopoly (not that it is one in the traditional sense). Hopefully, if MacSoft continues to not deliver quality, other companies will assume the responsibility of these ports. OmniGroup, for instance, ports a lot of great games for the Mac. So, if MacSoft doesn't want to port the FULL game, editor and all, it shouldn't start in the first place. Agreed, it probably isn't cost-effective to port the editor. Well, then don't take on this task of porting Civ3 unless the ENTIRE game is "budgeted" for. There are other companies who would be happy for the business, I'm sure.

-Jim

 

[gfeier]

Wait a minute, folks! Most of MacSoft's problems were due to Infogrames, its parent company until abut two weeks ago. It has just been bought by Destineer/Bold. Why is that a big deal? Because the boss of Destineer, Peter Tamte, was the ORIGINAL FOUNDER of MacSoft in 1993. It's going to take them a couple of weeks to get completely sorted out, but I'm absolutely delighted with this. You know they're gonna port PTW and I''m pretty sure they'll get it right this time. Believe me, for Mac gamers it's [dance]