SCENARIO PREVIEW: The Three Kingdoms: Extended Edition

[Sarevok]

No i didnt find it to easy, theres nothing you can do when the AI uses the brain of a 2 year old.

Example: I am 1 turn away from the AI capital, the AI then sends his entire army to his other city wich i have surounded by another army, the AI army will use 5-6 turns to get there, i capture both cities and suddenly his large army just disapears. Lucky me tough

that is VERY stupid indeed. They need to fix that!

 

[Gogf]

that is VERY stupid indeed. They need to fix that!

Another example:

The Lu Bu have about fifty units in their capital. I massacre a lot of the top ones, but there are tons underneath. They are almost all offensive units. I have three armies just outside the city. They send almost all of their units out of the city, toward my capital. I kill two light swordsmen, and take the city (their only one).

 

[Sarevok]

Another example:

The Lu Bu have about fifty units in their capital. I massacre a lot of the top ones, but there are tons underneath. They are almost all offensive units. I have three armies just outside the city. They send almost all of their units out of the city, toward my capital. I kill two light swordsmen, and take the city (their only one).

someone needs to send these examples to Firaxis, they seriously need to edit their AI for Civ4

 

[kane77077]

Another example:

The Lu Bu have about fifty units in their capital. I massacre a lot of the top ones, but there are tons underneath. They are almost all offensive units. I have three armies just outside the city. They send almost all of their units out of the city, toward my capital. I kill two light swordsmen, and take the city (their only one).

That's likely a function of the offense/defense checkboxes(flags?) in the editor. Maybe more units should have both checked, instead of just the offense box....

 

[kane77077]

Sarevok - do you currently have plans for changing the leaderheads? If so, what are your plans and have they been started yet?

 

[kane77077]

Edit : please disregard this post.

 

[Ryouga Hibiki]

Damn this looks good, but i wish there was a way to turn off razing of cities as its not appropirate here. Might also change some people's stragety if they can't just sack and raise their enemies cities, but actually haveto defend them.

 

[Sarevok]

Sarevok - do you currently have plans for changing the leaderheads? If so, what are your plans and have they been started yet?

plans, no people carrying them out.

 

[Sarevok]

Damn this looks good, but i wish there was a way to turn off razing of cities as its not appropirate here. Might also change some people's stragety if they can't just sack and raise their enemies cities, but actually haveto defend them.

that is something I would want also for my 2 major scenarios TGW and TOE. It is a severe problem thet you cant have the ability to turn off razing and abandoning cities...

BTW, I will also do Heavy AI editing to get it right for 1.1

 

[GeneralZhouYu]

I downloaded and tested it out. I played the first one as Liu Bei, second as Lu Bu, and third as Sun Ce. Heres what Ive found to be annoying.
-Pollution isnt gone... Maybe you should back up the timeline to somewhere where we dont have that problem... because its a real pain in the ass.
-Whenever I send out large amounts of offensive units to attack... they get demolished before they even reach their target... the enemy always wears away at my forces because offensive units have so little defensive power and whenever I send defensive units along to counter this, the offensive units get killed first and all thats left is the defensive ones. This is probably worse than pollution.
-Ive noticed that sometimes, even the weakest beings can defeat my officers at times. I sent Zhang Liao against a MILITIA, Elite Zhang Liao, defeated and didnt even inflict a single bar of damage. This is just... appauling I think that we should have the element of a major defeat, but not on such a small scale. This is like a common peasant defeating highly trained soldiers... its just not going to happen.
-Wei is just too strong. As Lu Bu... I initiated a coalition of every ruler in the game against Wei. I took Puyang Chengyang and Qingzhou, Liu Bei took Wuchao, Yuan Shao took Guan Du. This all occurred within 3 turns. 3 turns later Liu Bei was annihilated, I was pushed back to Xuzhou with only Lu Bu left(this is when Zhang Liao was killed by a militia), and Yuan Shao had lost all claims to Cao's lands and some of his own citys. Li Jue and Zhang Xiu were crushed in no time, and Ma Teng and Yuan Shu were being threatened.
-Armies are too weak as well, but I have to say that the new Siege weapons are very cool... siege towers especially.
-Im not quite sure if you meant this, but on the regular "Ships", it has the hanzi for "Ice" on the sails. Is this purposely there or was it meant to be rather... umm... contradictory?
-The new unique officers are cool... they die far too easily however. I was attacking Liu Biao as Liu Bei, I sent out Zhang Fei with all of my minor units to attack Danglang(should be DangYang). He and his units were all wiped out within 2-3 turns.
-Again, Yiling was west of Jiangling, and as I suggested in all of your other scenarios... it should probably be renamed either Jiangxia or Xiakou. Either would do fine... as when Liu Bei fled Dangyang slopes(Chang Ban), he called upon Liu Qi for help who was stationed at Xiakou/Jiangxia.
-Guanling should be GuanGling. You forget the G in the middle.
-I noticed this in some other scenario's and dont know if you changed it or not because Im not looking at the map now, but Wuzhang Plains is Wuzhang Yuan, not Guan... if you did... oops... sorry.

But I really like the map, it gives the feel of an ancient watercolor map... very oriental looking. Thumbs up, lots of potential here to be a top scenario for Civ3.

 

[Sarevok]

I downloaded and tested it out. I played the first one as Liu Bei, second as Lu Bu, and third as Sun Ce. Heres what Ive found to be annoying.
-Pollution isnt gone... Maybe you should back up the timeline to somewhere where we dont have that problem... because its a real pain in the ass.
-Whenever I send out large amounts of offensive units to attack... they get demolished before they even reach their target... the enemy always wears away at my forces because offensive units have so little defensive power and whenever I send defensive units along to counter this, the offensive units get killed first and all thats left is the defensive ones. This is probably worse than pollution.
-Ive noticed that sometimes, even the weakest beings can defeat my officers at times. I sent Zhang Liao against a MILITIA, Elite Zhang Liao, defeated and didnt even inflict a single bar of damage. This is just... appauling I think that we should have the element of a major defeat, but not on such a small scale. This is like a common peasant defeating highly trained soldiers... its just not going to happen.
-Wei is just too strong. As Lu Bu... I initiated a coalition of every ruler in the game against Wei. I took Puyang Chengyang and Qingzhou, Liu Bei took Wuchao, Yuan Shao took Guan Du. This all occurred within 3 turns. 3 turns later Liu Bei was annihilated, I was pushed back to Xuzhou with only Lu Bu left(this is when Zhang Liao was killed by a militia), and Yuan Shao had lost all claims to Cao's lands and some of his own citys. Li Jue and Zhang Xiu were crushed in no time, and Ma Teng and Yuan Shu were being threatened.
-Armies are too weak as well, but I have to say that the new Siege weapons are very cool... siege towers especially.
-Im not quite sure if you meant this, but on the regular "Ships", it has the hanzi for "Ice" on the sails. Is this purposely there or was it meant to be rather... umm... contradictory?
-The new unique officers are cool... they die far too easily however. I was attacking Liu Biao as Liu Bei, I sent out Zhang Fei with all of my minor units to attack Danglang(should be DangYang). He and his units were all wiped out within 2-3 turns.
-Again, Yiling was west of Jiangling, and as I suggested in all of your other scenarios... it should probably be renamed either Jiangxia or Xiakou. Either would do fine... as when Liu Bei fled Dangyang slopes(Chang Ban), he called upon Liu Qi for help who was stationed at Xiakou/Jiangxia.
-Guanling should be GuanGling. You forget the G in the middle.
-I noticed this in some other scenario's and dont know if you changed it or not because Im not looking at the map now, but Wuzhang Plains is Wuzhang Yuan, not Guan... if you did... oops... sorry.

But I really like the map, it gives the feel of an ancient watercolor map... very oriental looking. Thumbs up, lots of potential here to be a top scenario for Civ3.

1. For the last time, I will check pollution for 1.1
2. This will be a bit of a fix in 1.1, as there will be general changes in stats for units. Offensive units will get more defensive power and vise versa.
3. There will be significant stat increases for the more elite of units, and a general increase. Im thinking of making regular officer units 30-30-2 for example.
4. Everyone else will be made a bit stronger for 1.1. But remember, wei was extremely powerful, and most minor states could not stand up to Wei.
5. Armies are weak anyway. I am also trying to get more ideas for siege weapons in, any hints?
6. I didnt make the unit, but I did find that a bit amusing.
7. As said above, units are getting a general stat increase. Not only will there be more custom officers, but they will also be very strong. Lu Bu may be 45-30-3 for 1.1. I am looking for stat suggestions for all officers as well as the new ones which I have yet to figure out.
8. Ill change the name.
9. Ive never seen it named that... Ill change it anyways.
10. A personal error, ill get it.

Thank you for all of that valuable info Zhou Yu! Ill be sure to try to get 1.1 out sometime during this week.

 

[kane77077]

-Ive noticed that sometimes, even the weakest beings can defeat my officers at times. I sent Zhang Liao against a MILITIA, Elite Zhang Liao, defeated and didnt even inflict a single bar of damage. This is just... appauling I think that we should have the element of a major defeat, but not on such a small scale. This is like a common peasant defeating highly trained soldiers... its just not going to happen.

That sounds an awful lot likt the 'ol Modern Armor vs. Spearman fiasco...I don't think that happens in only this scenario.


Just out of curiousity - what level of difficulty were you playing on?

 

[kane77077]

Damn this looks good, but i wish there was a way to turn off razing of cities as its not appropirate here. Might also change some people's stragety if they can't just sack and raise their enemies cities, but actually have to defend them.

One way to keep the AI from razing cities might be to enable Victory Points. I played a game(regent difficulty) of the TROW scenario (not the extended edition) with victory points ON and didn't see a single city razed.It might not have been because of the VP, but I'll play a few games to test this theory. Note: if you do decide to include victory points, Sarevok, 50,000 VPs is too few - a player could win after unifying only half of China, so I'd suggest upping the Victory Condition to 150,000 VPs, if possible.

 

[Sarevok]

One way to keep the AI from razing cities might be to enable Victory Points. I played a game(regent difficulty) of the TROW scenario (not the extended edition) with victory points ON and didn't see a single city razed.It might not have been because of the VP, but I'll play a few games to test this theory. Note: if you do decide to include victory points, Sarevok, 50,000 VPs is too few - a player could win after unifying only half of China, so I'd suggest upping the Victory Condition to 150,000 VPs, if possible.

test it, that may be the solution. BTW, if it worked. The Total needed would be 5 for each city each turn and 500,000 to win.

 

[kane77077]

The pictures at the site I gave above may also provide a hint for several of the leaderheads, notably the following:

Cao Cao
Liu Bei
Sun Quan
Yuan Shao
Lu Bu

I have the first 3 as flag leaderheads for the regular scenario,but a comprehensive picture would be very cool to have. I also have a download avalible on this page:

http://www.kongming.net/avatars/#rtk7

Ths is a massive Avatar download page. The Download "Romance of the Three Kingdoms VII Avatars" has photos of all of the leaders in this scenario. If someone wants to make leaderheads of the "minor" leaders, that would be a nice thing to have as an extra. Also on this same avatar page are the downloads that include the avatars that I use on this forum in the "Dynasty Warriors 4 Avatars" section.

These may prove useful to those who want to create graphics or aid in this department for scenario development.

Sarevok-

Are static leaderheads OK, or did you only want animated? Also, NOT era-specific OK, too?

 

[Sarevok]

Current list of new officers:

Zhang Liao*
Zhou Yu
Xiahou Dun
Zhang He*
Xu Huang
Gan Ning**
Lu Meng

*Will be given to Wei due to their joining Wei soon after the scenario start, but their hero with their original faction will remain was a "warrior" unit
**Gan Ning will be a Wu unit, but also his hero will be with the Pirates near Xiakou

 

[GeneralZhouYu]

The VP thing wont work... if you've played the Napoleonic Wars Conquest. I played that one... cities get razed left and right... it downright annoys me too...

And it was Chieftan... whenever I test I play a low difficulty.

 

[Sarevok]

not all cities?

 

[kane77077]

I've started a game on Monarch difficulty as Liu Bei, and have played 15-20 turns. I'm about to restart after I turn off pollution and the pesky radar towers and turn on VP's, but here's a preliminary report:

Many cities have changed hands and I've only seen one city razed - Cao Cao razed Li Jue's Hongnong.

The Siege tower is very cool, but lethal bambardment may be too much - I was able to kill Lu Bu with one, from inside my own city( oddly enough). I also killed one of his warriors with another.

I really like the king unit capturing others into Strategists(armies) but that may overpower some smaller lords. It will give me a fighting chance against Cao Cao, though.

The elite units creating Warriors is cool - I got one with Guan Yu, and I used it as Lord Guan's son.

I've had to move quickly to capture any neighboring cities before Cao Cao can capture them - I'll have to really be on my toes to eventually stand up to them(Wei).

I enjoy the different graphics/stats for the heros. Good idea.

Terrain graphics : very cool !

I started, of course, with tech trade to bring me up to speed. I quickly declared war on Zhang Xiu, then all hell broke loose. In the first few turns, I was able to take Xuzhou (after killing LuBu and his Chen Gong with Seige Towers.) Cao Cao took Wangcheng from Zhang Ziu and then I took Nanyang and Runan, so he (Zhang Xiu)was finished. Li Jue still has his capital, but I've moved my warriors towards Changan and will take it in a turn or two if Cao Cao doesn't beat me. Early in the game, Zhang Xiu was able to sucker Sun Ce into an MPP, so I was at war with them, also. After the demise of Zhang Xiu and after I took Hefei, Sun Ce accepted a peace agreement and was willing to include tribute to me in the amount of 3gpt. If I wasn't restarting, I would invade Zhang Lu's lands next, then Yuan Shu (I want that Jade Seal! ). Then I'd be on to Liu Biao's lands before attempting to tackle Wei with a coalition of the remaining lords...

I currently hold the following cities:
Xinye
Xiaopei
Xiapi
Xuzhou
Nanyang
Runan
Hefei

My official diagnosis:
I love it!!!!

 

[Sarevok]

I've started a game on Monarch difficulty as Liu Bei, and have played 15-20 turns. I'm about to restart after I turn off pollution and the pesky radar towers and turn on VP's, but here's a preliminary report:

Many cities have changed hands and I've only seen one city razed - Cao Cao razed Li Jue's Hongnong.

The Siege tower is very cool, but lethal bambardment may be too much - I was able to kill Lu Bu with one, from inside my own city( oddly enough). I also killed one of his warriors with another.

I really like the king unit capturing others into Strategists(armies) but that may overpower some smaller lords. It will give me a fighting chance against Cao Cao, though.

The elite units creating Warriors is cool - I got one with Guan Yu, and I used it as Lord Guan's son.

I've had to move quickly to capture any neighboring cities before Cao Cao can capture them - I'll have to really be on my toes to eventually stand up to them(Wei).

I enjoy the different graphics/stats for the heros. Good idea.

Terrain graphics : very cool !

I started, of course, with tech trade to bring me up to speed. I quickly declared war on Zhang Xiu, then all hell broke loose. In the first few turns, I was able to take Xuzhou (after killing LuBu and his Chen Gong with Seige Towers.) Cao Cao took Wangcheng from Zhang Ziu and then I took Nanyang and Runan, so he (Zhang Xiu)was finished. Li Jue still has his capital, but I've moved my warriors towards Changan and will take it in a turn or two if Cao Cao doesn't beat me. Early in the game, Zhang Xiu was able to sucker Sun Ce into an MPP, so I was at war with them, also. After the demise of Zhang Xiu and after I took Hefei, Sun Ce accepted a peace agreement and was willing to include tribute to me in the amount of 3gpt. If I wasn't restarting, I would invade Zhang Lu's lands next, then Yuan Shu (I want that Jade Seal! ). Then I'd be on to Liu Biao's lands before attempting to tackle Wei with a coalition of the remaining lords...

I currently hold the following cities:
Xinye
Xiaopei
Xiapi
Xuzhou
Nanyang
Runan
Hefei

My official diagnosis:
I love it!!!!

Im very glad that you are enjoying this version. But I do want to bring up a few things:

For 1.1, all units stats are taking a marked increase to cut off the weak units killing the heroes. Here are the current Hero Stats:

Lu Bu 56-40-4
Guan Yu 45-36-4
Zhang Fei 48-40-2
Dian Wei 44-42-2
Zhao Yun 40-35-3
Xu Chu 44-32-2
Zhou Tai 38-34-2
Ma Chao 44-30-3
-----NEW-----
Zhang Liao 42-36-3
Zhou Yu 36-32-2
Xiahou Dun 39-34-2
Zhang He 38-34-2
Xu Huang 42-38-2
Gan Ning 42-32-2
Lu Meng 38-32-2

Also, no buildings were generating pollution. With that fact, there is no real way to turn off pollution completely. I think it is "building pollution" that is the problem, and that cannot be removed.