Science - Babylon vs. Maya vs. Korea

[Mesix]

Based on recent discussions about the benefits of various UA, I have decided to test out three civs which are highly regarded to see how each performs. For this test, I am most interested to compare how quickly each can be up and running with an emphasis towards . I am not trying to achieve a science victory per se, I am just trying to ascertain which of these three can tech the fastest to gain an advantage over their competition.

I am setting up each game with the same settings, but not identical maps. I am not using any mods or editors and so I cannot change the civ on the map generated by the game. I think that this is okay, because start bias is one of the factors for each civ.

The opponents are random. In hindsight, perhaps I should have selected specific opponents to make the game as equal as possible. I generally play with random civs, so this didn't occur to me to change this.

Here are the settings I am using:

Emperor
Tiny Map (4 civs and 8 CS)
Continents
Normal Speed

I will update with screenshots and open to discussion/advice/criticism from the peanut gallery.

A few notes about my overall strategy. I am planning to build a four city core for each civ and then grow tall. As much as possible, I will prioritize scientific buildings. My opening social policies will be Tradition and Liberty. I will first open Tradition for the bonus and then go through the Liberty tree. I return to Tradition later to get better free buildings and increased growth at the appropriate time (after the core cities are starting to develop and I have some happiness).

Here are some key milestones for each civ:

Babylon

Ages (turn #):
Classical (35), Medieval (66), Renaissance (119), Industrial (176), Modern (200)
Education finished on turn 94

Wonders (turn #):
Pyramids (69), Hanging Gardens (91), Petra (134), Colossus (165), Leaning Tower of Pisa (169), Porcelain Tower (170), The Great Lighthouse (173), Machu Pichu (184)

Great People:
GS (UA writing, 18), GS (116), GA (116), GS (126, Liberty), GP (128, ), GS (153), GE (169, LToP), GS (170, PT), GS (192)

Korea

Ages (turn #):
Classical (44), Medieval (84), Renaissance (147), Industrial (197)
Education finished on turn 118

Wonders (turn #):
Great Library (51), Oracle (104), Pyramids (112), Great Mosque of Djenne (155), Stonehenge (181), Hanging Gardens (186)

Free Techs:
Philosophy (GL, 51), Animal Husbandry (UA, 51)

Great People:
GA (95), GS (104, Liberty), GP (152, ), GS (160), GP (182, )

Maya

Ages (turn #):
Classical (47), Medieval (69), Renaissance (141), Industrial (197)
Education finished on turn 112

Wonders (turn #):
Great Library (48), Stonehenge (89), Oracle (90), Pyramids (90), Chichen Itza (123), Colossus (142), Sistine Chapel (170), Notre Dame (182), Machu Pichu (192), Leaning Tower of Pisa (193), Porcelain Tower (197)

Free Techs:
Animal Husbandry (hut, 4), Drama & Poetry (GL, 48)

Great People:
GS (72, UA), GE (86, UA), GS (89, Liberty), GP (89, ) GP (101, UA), GA (117, UA), Adm (133, UA), GM (152, UA), GP (182, ), GG (183, UA), GE (193, LTOP), GS (197, PT)

 

[Mesix]

Here is a synopsis of the first 35 turns as Babylon.

The game settings:

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Starting screenshot.

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Tech path...I am going to beeline Writing to get the free GS and a Library ASAP.

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I found my capital in place and move the warrior SE to explore. The capital is on a river, but there is no mountain nearby nor am I on the coast or a hill tile. I start with a Monument for my initial build to get for early policies.

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Turn 9, I have finished Pottery and started Writing. I have also finished building my Monument and start building a Shrine.

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I find the CS La Venta (Religious) and get bonus on turn 11.

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The Grand Mesa is NW of Laventa.

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On turn 14 I get my first Policy. I select the Tradition opener for the +3 and border expansion.

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I also explore a ruins and upgrade my initial Warrior to a Spearman.

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Turn 17, I have finished my Shrine and started a Granary. There are some barbarians nearby, but nothing to worry about.

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Turn 18. Writing is finished. Because of the nearby barbarian, I cannot settle my Academy unless I want it to be on the desert tile he is standing on. I move the GS into my capital delaying the bonus .

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A also found my Pantheon on turn 18 selecting Fertility Rights for the bonus growth.

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Turn 19. I am selecting my second policy, opening Liberty. I will concentrate on Liberty early and return to Tradition later to save the four free buildings and extra growth for a better time.

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I settle my Academy across the river, going from 6 to 14 on turn 20 (could have been earlier without the barbarian).

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A worthless run showing me some barbarian camps.

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Turn 28. My 3rd social policy. I do not have a spot picked out for my 2nd city yet. I will take the free worker to improve my tiles and concentrate on my capital for now.

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Turn 35. I have finished researching Philosophy. I have two turns left on the Library in my capital.

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Welcome to the Classical Era (turn 35).

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There is a mountain down here with a good spot for my science focused city. This is where my free settler will go and build my second city.

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Here is what the technology tree looks like after 35 turns. I am currently getting 16 each turn.

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[Mesix]

Here is a synopsis of the first 35 turns as Korea.

The starting screenshot. Game settings were the same, but I didn't take a screenshot.

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I also didn't take a screenshot of the tech tree. You can see that I settled in place, built a Monument, and chose to research Pottery. The capital is on a hill, so +1 will help things to be built faster. There is also a mountain next to my capital which means I can build an Observatory later. Overall, a nice spot for Korea's capital!

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Turn 2. My initial warrior pops a hut for +1 population in my capital. Korea is off to a good start.

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Turn 3. I meet Valletta (militaristic) and get 30 .

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Turn 5. I meet Cape Town (maritime) and get another 30 . The CS are near to each other.

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Turn 6. I have finished my Monument and Pottery has 2 turns left. I choose to build a Scout.

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Turn 10. I pop another hut. This one has a worthless map. They can't all be bonuses.

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Turn 12. I select the Tradition opener as my first policy. The bonus +1 in the capital helped the Monument to finish earlier and the first policy to be selected 2 turns earlier.

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Turn 14. Another hut. This one just shows some nearby barbarian encampments.

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Turn 17. My 2nd policy is used to open Liberty.

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I meet Harold Bluetooth to the south.

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Turn 19. In this screenshot you can see the location of the Danish capital. I am also researching Drama and Poetry to get Amphitheaters as soon as possible.

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Mount Kailash is located in close proximity to the Danish capital.

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Turn 26. I can select my 3rd policy and also my Pantheon (having built a shrine in my capital after the scout).

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I select Fertility Rights for the bonus growth (same Pantheon as I selected for Babylon).

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I decide to go for Republic to get the additional +1 and open the path of the free settler. I can't improve very many resources yet, and Korea has some good city locations nearby.

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Turn 27. I clear the barbarian encampment to the NW of my capital.

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Harold wants to exchange embassies. Why not? I'm not gearing up to invade him...yet.

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Turn 35. I have 10 turns left to research Drama and Poetry. My current research is 7 per turn. I am building the Great Library in my capital to get the Korean bonus and the free technology (which I will use to get Philosophy). There are 17 turns left to finish the Great Library.

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[Mesix]

Here is a synopsis of the first 35 turns as Maya.

The game settings (same as the other two).

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Starting location. Coastal (but no work boat resources), river, on a hill, but no mountain.

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My tech path is Pottery -> Writing -> Calendar

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I start by building a monument in my capital. Just like Korea, the monument will finish faster due to +1 from being on a hill.

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Turn 2. Ruins explored and my Warrior is upgraded to a Spearman.

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Turn 4. Another ancient ruins. This time I get a free technology!!!

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The free tech is Animal Husbandry.

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I meet Monaco (cultural) and get 30 .

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Turn 13. I use my 1st policy to open the Tradition tree.

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Turn 17. I have finished building my Pyramid (Shrine replacement UB providing +2 and +2 ). My current research is 7 per turn.

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Turn 18. I use my 2nd Policy to open the Liberty policy tree.

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I also finish an Atlatlist this turn. The extra from the hill allowed me to start building the unit before finishing Pottery. I switched to the Pyramid when it was available and then finished the Atlatlist this turn.

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Turn 21. I get my Pantheon and select Fertility Rights.

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Turn 26. I have finished researching Calendar.

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My tech tree at this point. I am going to Philosophy next.

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Turn 27. My 3rd policy is used to get Republic for the extra and to bee line the free settler for my second city.

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Finished building a Granary in my capital, I'm going to go for the Great Library next.

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Hunting barbarians, my Sperman gets promoted to Medic.

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Turn 35. I am generating 9 per turn. 12 turns to finish Philosophy.

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This is what the tech tree looks like at this point.

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[Mesix]

Here are some thoughts after the first 35 turns.

Babylon is already 10 turns ahead of the other two civs having already reached the Classical Era. Getting the National College up ASAP will only compound this early advantage from the Academy. This is despite the fact that the Academy was delayed by 2 turns due to spawning on a worthless desert tile and having to avoid a nearby barbarian. Babylon is isolated, having no AI opponents on the same continent. This is beneficial because I can grow peacefully, but also bad because I cannot sell resources to the AI. Babylon has elected to go for the free worker first to develop nearby resources and concentrate on the capital early. This should allow me to get the National College before expanding to 4 cities.

Korea has the best start location. Settled on a hill, next to both a river and a mountain. The extra helped to get the early Monument for faster policy selection. Korea also went down the left side of Liberty for the added and soon a free settler. Harold is nearby (we'll see how this develops) and has exchanged embassies. Korea will go for Amphitheaters early to run an artist for the bonus from the UA.

Maya was founded on a hill next to a river as well. The capital is also on a coast, but unfortunately there are no fishing resources nearby. Maya will benefit from the Pyramid UB in all four of the core cities. Like Korea, Maya has gone down the left side of Liberty to get added and soon a free settler. Maya has not met any AI players yet, which may limit trading opportunities in the early game. Maya will go for Theology to start the long count ASAP.

My expectations are that Babylon will get off to an early lead in the tech race and never look back. Korea should start to mature a little later (but probably never catch up) once they start running a specialist economy. Maya will probably lag behind since the long count will delay the generation of GS.

 

[ense7en]

Looking forward to your results!

There's no way the Maya should be able to compete with Babylon/Korea purely due to the long count messing up GS costs.

Pyramids are nice and all, but they don't really compare to the awesome GS generation Babylon has, nor the extra science boosts Korea gets.

I would figure Babylon should be best for getting that early lead, but late game i imagine Korea would be best.

 

[budweiser]

I will say that when I was working on my OCC Diety science win, I would alternate games between Korea, Babylon and Inca civs and I ended up finally winning with Korea on t237.

I like them better than Babylon, they see more solid over the long haul. To me although they are similar, Babylon seems built for offense while Korea is the ultimate turtle.

 

[Monthar]

There's no way the Maya should be able to compete with Babylon/Korea purely due to the long count messing up GS costs.

Yes, it can cause problems, but it's not too bad if you don't beeline Theology. In fact if you make sure Theology is the only tech you have left to unlock Education and you take the Admiral and General as the first two choices, you can significantly delay the the long count's impact on your GS generation.

With enough cities that have the pyramid, and all the science buildings you can put in them, you can get through the tech tree fast enough to increase the number of turns between long count picks that you might only get a GE and GS out of after the Admiral and General. Plus with all the extra faith from the pyramids, you'll be able to buy another GS or two to make up for nor generating them due to the long count increasing the costs.

 

[ense7en]

Yes, it can cause problems, but it's not too bad if you don't beeline Theology. In fact if you make sure Theology is the only tech you have left to unlock Education and you take the Admiral and General as the first two choices, you can significantly delay the the long count's impact on your GS generation.

With enough cities that have the pyramid, and all the science buildings you can put in them, you can get through the tech tree fast enough to increase the number of turns between long count picks that you might only get a GE and GS out of after the Admiral and General. Plus with all the extra faith from the pyramids, you'll be able to buy another GS or two to make up for nor generating them due to the long count increasing the costs.

Fair enough, the extra faith allowing for lots of GS purchases i suppose could compensate pretty well.

 

[Syntax Error]

You can't really get accurate results if it's just for 35 turns. If that's the case, Babylon wins hands down, since you really can't beat raw +8 beakers by turn 20. Mayans, probably, if you can get Messenger of the Gods and Shrines online quickly. Koreans are good, but the boost comes staggered while Babylon is more constant.

 

[Monthar]

Yes, Korea's boosts from building science buildings in the capital are staggered, but the raw BPT once you start adding specialists, of any kind, constantly increases faster then Babylon's BPT, which in turn makes those boosts even larger.

Both amphitheaters and markets are on the path to education. Running a single specialist in either one with 4 cities will match Babylon's early academy boost. Running both types in all 4 cities and you effectively have 2 academies worth of bpt. Complete both the library and national college in the capital a few turns after setting those 8 specialists and you get two boosts that are as good as bulbing with 2 GS's which should be enough to at least catch up to Babylon, if not beating them to Education. Once the universities are up in the 3 other cities, if you have the food & pop to do so, you can run both scientists and as many artists/merchants in them as possible while building the capital's university for yet another big slingshot.

Those boosts coupled with the higher BPT, means Korea should consistently beat Babylon to all the science buildings from the Renaissance on.

Edit: The key is to grow your cities then set as many specialist in all your cities as possible about 8 turns before the the capital is going to complete a science building.

 

[RedRover57]

The problem is that you can't start them on the same city location and same map, so the variability in starts is going to render the comparison fairly meaningless.

That being said, Babylon is going to win in most situations with regard to science.

 

[DevilHell]

I am really tired that the people give the Mayan empire such a value
They are not that great, besides from the long count, which is also not always that useful.
Now, I really don't know how you dare to compare Babylon/Korea, with the Fudge Kings Mayans, I mean, really.

Getting a little out of topic, I have also seen a lot of ICS strategies based on the Mayans, and that's what mostly pisses me off
Their Shrine gives them Science, ok, now combine that with the 1 happiness 3 pop city with a shrine, ok, you got a good 2 faith 2 science 1 happy per city
That has nothing as special as the people make it look like
You could ICS with Arabia and you would get 2 faith 1 happy and 2 science (with messenger of the gods) PLUS A LOTTA GOLD!! specially if you combine that with reduced costs from Commerce

So yeah, my point? Maya has nothing to do in this thread -.-

 

[Mesix]

You can't really get accurate results if it's just for 35 turns. If that's the case, Babylon wins hands down, since you really can't beat raw +8 beakers by turn 20. Mayans, probably, if you can get Messenger of the Gods and Shrines online quickly. Koreans are good, but the boost comes staggered while Babylon is more constant.

I am going to play all the games in parallel. I started by playing the first 35 turns of all three games last night.

The problem is that you can't start them on the same city location and same map, so the variability in starts is going to render the comparison fairly meaningless.

That being said, Babylon is going to win in most situations with regard to science.

As I said in the OP...I think this is okay, because start bias is part of the design (strength/weakness) of each civ. As much as possible, I will try to highlight how the start location may or may not have an impact for each civ as well (i.e. Korea and Maya both started on a hill for +1 in the capital).

 

[Mesix]

I have updated the OP and 35 turn synopsis posts above. I have also done a brief outline of the current situation after 35 turns in post #5. As I stated there:

My expectations are that Babylon will get off to an early lead in the tech race and never look back. Korea should start to mature a little later (but probably never catch up) once they start running a specialist economy. Maya will probably lag behind since the long count will delay the generation of GS.

I am open to discussion. I am interested to hear ideas about how to improve the start with one or more of the civs. I am also interested to hear other players predictions of how the games might develop and why. I would like to solicit and promote lively debate of different view points since this is a discussion forum and should be a learning experience for all.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

The problem is that you can't start them on the same city location and same map, so the variability in starts is going to render the comparison fairly meaningless.

I have to agree with this. No two games play the same, even on the same map, but with similar starting enviroment, these games would be a lot better in terms of comparabiltiy.

As for the current results, they seem not that surprising. I guess Babylon will have a lead until Korea reaches education, but once Korea has those two scientists up in every city, things should even out. Grabbing the GL as Korea is probably the most imporatnt thing to do - and should also provide a tech boost that pushes them ahead 1 to 1.5 techs, evening out the early academy bonus from Babylon.

That being said, Babylon has a very strong early game and is very adaptive, something that Korea lacks. Getting past Bowmen + Walls of Babylon is VERY difficult - and thanks to their early science boost, they can grab all important luxury and military techs when they need it. Korea on the other hand has a hillariously overpowered UU - if you manage to build some early game siege weapons and upgrade them you can even carry over the city attack bonus and more or less one-to-two-shot any city during the medieval era.

Korea is also a lot more dependened on their surroundings - they need food for their specialits, and if you start in area that lacks decent food tiles, you will suffer quite a lot. I think the best thing they can do in such a situation is to grab the hanging gardens ASAP after philosophy to make use of early specialits + a free garden. An interesting option for Korea is to go for faith and spam holy sites. Thanks to their +2 science for great improvements UA, this can lead to snowballing faith generation. I recently tried to play a game with full piety early on and switching to rationalism after I finished freedom, but I am not so sure if that was the best choise. Hum.

I highly doubt that the Maya can stay competetive. Their only choise (imho) would be to go all-out for faith and buy a few additional great scientists during the early late game. I think they work best with a wide empire - the more pyramids they can get up early with messenger of the gods, the better. Many cities also improve religion spread - if you manage to grab the increased spread range enhancer, your religion can easily dominate the whole map (unless you have some narrow parts ont he map that are sparely settled until the later game). I guess their best choise is a well timed great prophet to quickly grab the religion enhancer OR to forgo theology for as long as possible to keep the long count ability from triggering to often.

 

[Monthar]

It might be a good idea to avoid RAs for these comparisons.

 

[Mesix]

Babylon turn 35-70

Having finished Philosophy for the National College, here is my tech path. I will unlock all the Ancient Era techs to hook up key resources. I start with Animal Husbandry and Trapping since I have Ivory nearby.

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Turn 37. I have finished my Library and it is time to start the National College.

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Turn 43. My 4th social policy is Republic. The +1 will help to build the National College, and it is on the way to the free Settler.

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This is a very prolific barbarian camp down here, and someone has finished building Stonehenge.

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Turn 50. I am in the lead with 11 technologies, and I am still the only player in the Classical Era.

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Turn 52. I have finished building the National College, taking me up to 34 per turn.

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Having finished my Ancient Era techs, I will now bee line for Education.

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Turn 54. The Barbarian camp is gone, and my Spearman gets the Medic promotion.

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Turn 56. Someone else has founded a Pantheon.

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Turn 59. Someone else has built the Great Library!

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Turn 65. My 5th social policy is Collective Rule, providing a free Settler for my 2nd city.

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Turn 66. I have finished researching Theology. I didn't take a picture of the splash screen, but Babylon has now entered the Medieval Era!

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I have finished building the Pyramids. Now I have 3 workers, and I am generating some GE points in Babylon.

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I have discovered the Sri Pada national wonder off the coast. It is not well situated for my 2nd city though.

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Turn 69. Akkad is my 2nd city. Founded on the coast next to a mountain. Someone has finished building the Statue of Zeus. That is three wonders built by the AI rather quickly. Perhaps Ramses II is somewhere on the other side of the ocean?

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My three workers are all lined up to build a road connecting my cities.

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My tech tree at turn 70. I will finish Mathematics next turn, and then it is only three more technologies until I get Education. I am researching at a rate of 40 per turn.

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[Mesix]

Korea turn 35-70


Turn 37. One of the AI players is the first to enter the Classical Era.

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Turn 41. My 4th policy is Collective Rule providing a free Settler.

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Turn 44. I have finished researching Drama & Poetry.

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...and I have entered the Classical Era. Only 7 turns later than the AI and 9 turns later than Babylon.

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This looks like a good spot for my 2nd city. Since there is Barbarian activity, I'll escort my Settler. Maybe I can get a free worker out of this opportunity as well.

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Half strength after 2 attacks, but the barbarian has open terrain to run away with the worker.

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Turn 51. The Great Library!

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Thanks to Korea's UA, I get Animal Husbandry for free in addition to selecting Philosophy.

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Turn 51. I found my 2nd city, Busan on a coast near Bananas, Gold, and Horses.

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I will build an Amphitheater in my capital to get the specialist economy rolling.

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...and a monument in my new city.

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I will now round out my research by concentrating on the Ancient Era techs to connect resources. I should have some workers on the way soon.

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Harold is not too happy that I have settled near his territory. I keep the peace by making an empty promise not to do it again.

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Turn 61. I have finished my Amphitheater. Notice that the Artist does not display the extra 2 with the mouse over info. It is there because I have 16 without the Artist and :18 with.

I have decided to hard build a Settler. I need to get my 4 core cities up. I don't have enough to buy one and I don't have anything to offer Harold for trade.

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I've also finished my Monument in Busan this turn. Time to build a Library.

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Turn 63. My 5th policy is Citizenship providing a free worker.

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Turn 65. I capture a worker from the barbarians. Should I give it back to Harold? Of course not! Now I have 2 workers.

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As much as I would like to have a city 1/2 way between to get shorter trade routes, there just isn't a good spot.

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So my hard built Settler will go north to found a coastal city near the Copper.

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With barbarians and Harold nearby, I decide that it is a good idea to build an Archer to support my puny military.

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Turn 70. I have 1 turn left to finish Sailing which is the last of the Ancient Era technologies. I am currently researching 18 per turn.

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[Mesix]

Maya turn 35-70

Turn 42. I take Collective Rule as my 4th Policy getting a free Settler for my 2nd city.

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Hunting barbarians near Monaco to net some influence.

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Turn 47. I have finished researching Philosophy.

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...and entered the Classical Era.

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Turn 48. I finish the Great Library.

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...and take Drama & Poetry as my free technology. I would like to have gotten Theocracy for the Long Count, but delaying any longer will likely cost me the Great Library to an AI opponent on Emperor difficulty.

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Next, I'll build an Amphitheater in my capital.

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Barbarian hunting has made me allies with Monaco netting me +3 per turn.

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Turn 47. One of the AI players has entered the Classical Era.

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Turn 56. After finishing a Monument in Tikal, I am going to build Stonehenge. The extra will help to found a religion and also to purchase great people in the late game. I am also specializing my wonders with GS points in one city and GE points in another.

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Turn 57. I will take Citizenship as my 5th social policy and get a much needed worker.

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My capital has finished the Amphitheater and will start building a Temple.

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Turn 59. An AI player has founded a pantheon. My influence with Monaco has dropped to Friend.

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Turn 64. After finishing the Temple, I will knock out an additional worker.

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Turn 65. An AI player has built the Temple of Artemis.

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I will chop this forest to speed up production of Stonehenge.

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Turn 69. I have finished researching Theology. Let the Long Count begin!

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...and I have entered the Medieval Era.

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A screenshot of the Long Count starting in 1240 BC.

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Here is a screenshot of the current tech tree. I am researching 17 per turn. After bee lining Theology for the Long Count, I am picking up the missing Ancient Era techs to improve my tiles.

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