Science Farms

[Spoonwood]

Why wait for the AI to get techs when you can get them yourself faster?

Because ideally, you research the tech the AI's won't research, and then trade for the tech they do research. The tech pace then can have a sub-4 turn rate per tech this way, even if it takes your empire 7 turns to research a tech this way, as long as the AIs get the other tech in 7 turns.

The reason you are getting more techs from the AI is that you are giving the AI longer to get them by not researching yourself that quickly.

No. Look, let's say I have 4 turn research, and it takes an AI 7 turns to research a tech. First, I research one tech I know the AIs probably won't research (like Electricity) at 4 turns, while letting the AIs research another tech (say Industrialization or The Corporation). Even if you finish off Electricity in 4 turns and then research The Corporation in 4 turns, you'll save a turn by buying the last little bit of The Corporation. How does one pick the AIs research rate? Get them away from researching junk technology (as in consider gifting them Communism, Fascism... I didn't do this), try and keep the best ones out of wars (that would make three of them in my game), and *get them growing* (I didn't do this... I wish I had)... read get them Sanitation... at least as soon as you have a lock down on Theory of Evolution if not earlier. We all pick up the tech pace in ancient and maybe middle ages also by picking the right tech to research and trading. So, why not try to do it in the industrial ages and modern? I'll need to try this out myself a lot more, but that the AIs can help pick up the tech pace in the modern age, don't take my word for it... take Archphoenix's. He may have had a 4 turn research rate in his game, but he says that's not it. He had a faster finish date than any Deity, Demi-God, Emperor, or Monarch game so far. On Emperor even with a 4 turn research rate could he have had a faster finish date? I think not, since the AIs won't push the tech pace as much there.

 

[Chamnix]

We're mixing a couple different topics here. First, is it better to make borderline cities specialist farms or metros (which is really what my first post was intended to be about), and second, should you the AI or them?

I absolutely agree that if your AI can research a tech you need in 7 turns, then you are clearly better off than if your AI provides nothing. However, I disagree that that means you should play nice with all AI and slow your own research by not expanding via warfare. I don't think 7 AI research faster than 2, and I know the player researches faster by having 60% of the land instead of 15%. You are better off having a couple AI research and doing 4-turn research yourself.

You'll have to provide me a link to archphoenix's write-up - I don't know anything about his game and can't seem to find it.

EDIT - Found archphoenix's game.

EDIT 2 - No I didn't. The write up I was reading wasn't the one with the best launch date.

 

[Spoonwood]

We're mixing a couple different topics here. First, is it better to make borderline cities specialist farms or metros (which is really what my first post was intended to be about),

Maybe it doesn't matter, or it's too close to call. Or maybe in some games it works one way and some ways it works another way. Both have benefits and drawbacks... so if I ever wrote a tutorial on a spaceship game I'd think putting both in would make sense.

and second, should you the AI or them?

I'd think a little of both... provided that you can war effectively and not have an appreciable weariness problem. I don't have *that* sort of confidence in my warring skills at upper levels, although I suspect you could pull such off Chamnix. The thing is, you can't necessarily say only 2 strong AIs, because I had 3 AIs in my game who got me signficant gpt. As I said before The Byzantines only had 9 or 10 cities, but still had cash. Maybe you don't want to exactly bleed them dry either as I did. I wouldn't discount or devalue money for this type of game, since buying labs can help you push the tech pace.

I'd think that you probably don't want to hammer anyone in the ancient ages, because I think they all push the tech pace there or at least can do so sometimes. Germany might come as the 6th tribe you meet (on a standard sized map), and not even have Alphabet while you're on Philosophy, The Republic, or Literature, but they might be the only ones with Polytheism (happened in a game I abandonded recently). They might all do so in the early middle ages also, and perhaps even the late middle ages, since there's so many optionals around there (Printing Press, Music Theory, Democracy, Free Artistry, Navigation, Military Tradition, Economics, and the AIs behavior towards Metallurgy which they seem to research immediately after Chemistry). That might work subtly, because maybe weak Persia researches Printing Press, while stronger Korea researches Metallurgy and they get it the same turn due to how the trading system works. But, at least that way strong Korea won't spend time on Printing Press or Economics or whatever. I don't think an effect like this will pop in the industrial ages.

I absolutely agree that if your AI can research a tech you need in 7 turns, then you are clearly better off than if your AI provides nothing. However, I disagree that that means you should play nice with all AI and slow your own research by not expanding via warfare.

I'll give you that. But, from what I understand, most warfare, especially at upper levels, uses military alliances. If I have a strong Persia and a weak Greece, I don't think I'll want to sign an MA with Persia, get them to war on Greece and possibly drag Persia into Fascism for 20 turns as they pounce the Greeks. I don't know AI war-mongering behavior all that well. If an AI progressive gets weaker and weaker does that make it more likely that other AIs will join in on that war against the weak AI? An AI dragged into Fascism loses population, experiences an anarchy (o.k. it's really short, but still), has exactly what for research potential, and exactly what for commerce in general? I don't if you warring will cause that in any way, but an MA I'd suspect would, so doesn't it seem like you'd better war all by your lonesome? Then... how do you do that *and* keep up your own research while still growing?

I don't think 7 AI research faster than 2, and I know the player researches faster by having 60% of the land instead of 15%. You are better off having a couple AI research and doing 4-turn research yourself.

Of course, but does it really work out so simply at upper levels?

The write-up for archphoenix's game comes at the end of this gauntlet thread http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=157933 There's plenty of good dicussion in there, in my opinion.

 

[Spoonwood]

Some thoughts on industrial research for the upper level fast spaceship game:

1. Get at least the strong AIs Nationalism right away.
2. Then go Sanitation-Electricity-Scientific Method. At 4 turn research, that gives the AIs 12 turns to learn Industrialization to fully trade for it or 15 turns to partially buy Industrialization (or research Atomic Theory, trade for it and take Electronics, and The Corporation/Replacable Parts as your free techs? that sounds more expensive, but if you save turns not researching Industralization, maybe it's worth it?). 4 turn research on Electricity on high levels sounds hard to me, so maybe a little more time. If the AIs go Communism-Industralization it might just work. Or if one goes Communism, another Fascism, it might work.
3. Use Sanitation in the deal for Industraliztion so they can really start growing. Maybe they might even net you The Corporation also (less likely, but a powerful commercial tribe might go that way... The English did it for me in a COTM I played once), so if you have slower research, maybe it doesn't matter so much.
4. Consider gifting the AIs The Corporation so they have more money and maybe so you can get some, if not all of Refining from them.

Industralization comes in at number 7 on DaveMcW's list of favorite techs for the industrial era behind Replaceable Parts, Nationalism, Flight, Combustion, Steam Power, and Refining. Of course the government techs probably come out much higher than that list suggests, but still... the AIs do like Industrialization. With a good pre-build on TOE and some luck, it looks like that should work. It also gives you time to build hospitals before factories, and it means you have pollution from production later *s*.

 

[troytheface]

A science farm is a city that has pigs or horse or cattle and some irrigatable
land. after the city builds a library, turn on the light to the beaker icon.
Great Scientists should first build an academy here then the next Great Scientist use to join to the city. Then build all science buildings and then research.

 

[Aabraxan]

A science farm is a city that has pigs or horse or cattle and some irrigatable
land. after the city builds a library, turn on the light to the beaker icon.
Great Scientists should first build an academy here then the next Great Scientist use to join to the city. Then build all science buildings and then research.

Is this by any chance meant for Civ 4?

 

[Spoonwood]

What language are you speaking troytheface?

As another thought, instead of leaving the governors on "emphasize production" as usual ... once you get to the industrial ages, maybe you want "emphasize commerce" for a fast space victory (as well as diplo. in this case).

 

[Othniel]

As another thought, instead of leaving the governors on "emphasize production" as usual ... once you get to the industrial ages, maybe you want "emphasize commerce" for a fast space victory (as well as diplo. in this case).

I don't think "emphasize commerce" would do one whit of good unless you are a player who dislikes micromanagement and your land is not fully roaded. Unless I'm mistaken, "emphasize commerce" will tell the city governor to assign newly grown citizens to the tiles with the highest commerce. However, unlike in "emphasize production" where you get the extra shields for the next turn, commerce is counted before the city grows and the new citizen is assigned, so you don't get that bonus turn benefit.

The only benefit seems to be for players who don't micro and don't have their terrain fully roaded. The new citizen would be forced to high-commerce spaces and you wouldn't have to worry about it. This would of course only benefit cities that aren't fully corrupt.

P.S. there might be some small benefit even if you do have all terrain roaded because of the commerce boosts around rivers or certain luxes. But the difference is probably very small. Again this is for non-microing players.

 

[Spoonwood]

Thanks Othniel, it was at least worth a thought.

 

[NickyH]

I don't think "emphasize commerce" would do one whit of good unless you are a player who dislikes micromanagement and your land is not fully roaded. Unless I'm mistaken, "emphasize commerce" will tell the city governor to assign newly grown citizens to the tiles with the highest commerce. However, unlike in "emphasize production" where you get the extra shields for the next turn, commerce is counted before the city grows and the new citizen is assigned, so you don't get that bonus turn benefit.

I think that explains a lot. It's clear that "Emphasize production" is the best option, since food and commerce is counted from the citizens you already have, and not from the new one.

When rails become available, and I need more workers, I've sometimes tried to tell my governor to emphasize food in cities where I build workers, but it doesn't make any difference. The governor still assigns new citizens to the tiles that give more shields. But what happens next if I don't manage the citizens myself? Will the governor move my citizens to high food tiles after I click for the next turn, or will they stay on the tiles with more shield?

 

[Aabraxan]

. . . . However, unlike in "emphasize production" where you get the extra shields for the next turn, commerce is counted before the city grows and the new citizen is assigned, so you don't get that bonus turn benefit. . . . .

If my understanding is correct (& I'm assuming that someone will correct me if it's not), "emphasize production" is the only emphasis that gives the player that same-turn benefit. You can choose to emphasize food, commerce or production in the governor settings, but only production is counted after growth (again, IIUC). So any other setting may put a new citizen on the correct tile, but player won't get any benefit until the next turn. I think there are some other subtleties in the governors actions as regards food, though. I seem to recall reading that the governor will automatically place new citizens on food tiles if the surplus drops below a certain level, but I'm not sure about that.