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Science Victory, Tall Empire
- Thread starter reason
- Start date
1. more food
2. more food.
3. Research agreements
4. Focus science. So do not build too much useless wonders [wonder is good if it gives science or food] or buildings.
5. Faith is good, but do not pay too much attention on it.
6. Also focus culture after opening Rationalism to close it faster.
2. more food.
3. Research agreements
4. Focus science. So do not build too much useless wonders [wonder is good if it gives science or food] or buildings.
5. Faith is good, but do not pay too much attention on it.
6. Also focus culture after opening Rationalism to close it faster.
Yes, the above two civs are best at science when played by a human. Under hands of the AI, only Korea is.
The Babylonian AI wastes the free GS by bulbing it early.
Tall science is all about getting Academies in your best science city (run all science slots); build NC ASAP.
The Babylonian AI wastes the free GS by bulbing it early.
Tall science is all about getting Academies in your best science city (run all science slots); build NC ASAP.
reason
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2013
- Messages
- 28
I know Freedom is good, but why not Order? The Science bonuses look nice.
I play exclusively on Deity and I almost always open Order myself. I take the 2 happiness tenets first to get a nice 16 happiness buffer just before the AIs start hitting their Ideologies to tank my happiness. I then get Worker's Facilities for quick Factories that pump a ton of science. Don't need the Level 3 since it's marginal at best but if you get it then you get it.
Lots of Food
Trade Routes for gold
Consulates+Pledge
More Food
2-City NC
Education
Sci Theory
Plastics
Rationalism
RAs
Lots of Food
Lots of Faith (for GS)
One Dozen GS plus two Academies
Don't forget to keep pace on Tourism and Culture
Freedom for Space Procurement
Trade Routes for gold
Consulates+Pledge
More Food
2-City NC
Education
Sci Theory
Plastics
Rationalism
RAs
Lots of Food
Lots of Faith (for GS)
One Dozen GS plus two Academies
Don't forget to keep pace on Tourism and Culture
Freedom for Space Procurement
joshua43214
King
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2012
- Messages
- 985
I go order or freedom depending on the map. I am not sure which one is really better.
On food rich hammer starved empires I usually go with Freedom and start saving gold about the beginning of modern era and just buy 2 or 3 parts.
On hammer rich empires order is a safer bet because the it is easier to manage happiness. You are bulbing/RA'ing the las techs, so the science bonus from order is not as powerful as it looks on paper because you will go through atomic and info eras really fast with bulbs with either ideology
I don't really get the love for Freedom. 25% more science per city from Order means that you're bulbing for larger amounts and finishing the last techs faster. I don't see why buying spaceship parts is relevant. You still have to wait for Particle Physics or whatever. Why not build the others while you're waiting? It doesn't take long at all. Opening Order means that you can open with 2 Happiness perks that give you 16 happiness total (if not more). That's enough to offset pretty much any happiness loss from AIs adopting other ideologies around you. Maybe you always have a ton of happiness in your games but I sure as Hell don't and I mean I'm always having to put up with Greece/Siam trying to take every CS on the map spamming coups that basically can't fail using gold amounts that I could never reach. I only play on Deity so maybe I'm biased in that sense but I mean I just don't see why people like Freedom so much. Like, how is buying any part other than the last one relevant? Parts build in like 5-9 turns tops even if you only have like 4 mines to work. You just work your Workshop slot, your Factory slots, your mines, etc. Throw in Spaceship Plant and a Nuclear Reactor/Solar Plant/Hydro Plant and they pop out in no time.
This is also why I don't understand why people use a GE on Hubble instead of getting another GS. Build Hubble while you're researching Apollo. They basically finish at the same time assuming you do Hubble in your highest prod city. Your win time is constrained by beakers at that stage, not hammers. If I have 2500 faith I buy 2 GSes and win 8 turns sooner than people who get a GE. If I have 3500 faith then I obv get a GE and rush my last part with the Order finisher. If I get 5000 faith magically then I do 3 GSes but that's maybe happened once or twice. I just don't see the point. You still have to wait for Particle Physics. Getting Hubble/rush buying parts before it finishes is pointless.
Like, am I missing something here? I just do not get the logic behind Freedom at all nor I do understand everyone's fascination with rushing Hubble with a GE. They do not make sense from an "I want to win in the shortest amount of time" standpoint.
If I'm wrong, PLEASE let me know. I'd legitimately like to know if I'm wrong. I'm a perfectionist who likes to optimize things and so if I'm doing something wrong I want to fix my mistake. It just doesn't make sense, to me, to get Freedom. If I'm missing something obvious, by all means, let me know. Like, maybe the Freedom perks do prove more science than Order. If that's true, hey, I'm probably doing something wrong. I don't see how that could be but I've never run the math.
For the record, I'm talking about like sub 250 wins here. Like, I care about optimal play and getting the fastest possible SVs. If anyone knows the actual math behind Order and Freedom I'd like to hear it.
This is also why I don't understand why people use a GE on Hubble instead of getting another GS. Build Hubble while you're researching Apollo. They basically finish at the same time assuming you do Hubble in your highest prod city. Your win time is constrained by beakers at that stage, not hammers. If I have 2500 faith I buy 2 GSes and win 8 turns sooner than people who get a GE. If I have 3500 faith then I obv get a GE and rush my last part with the Order finisher. If I get 5000 faith magically then I do 3 GSes but that's maybe happened once or twice. I just don't see the point. You still have to wait for Particle Physics. Getting Hubble/rush buying parts before it finishes is pointless.
Like, am I missing something here? I just do not get the logic behind Freedom at all nor I do understand everyone's fascination with rushing Hubble with a GE. They do not make sense from an "I want to win in the shortest amount of time" standpoint.
If I'm wrong, PLEASE let me know. I'd legitimately like to know if I'm wrong. I'm a perfectionist who likes to optimize things and so if I'm doing something wrong I want to fix my mistake. It just doesn't make sense, to me, to get Freedom. If I'm missing something obvious, by all means, let me know. Like, maybe the Freedom perks do prove more science than Order. If that's true, hey, I'm probably doing something wrong. I don't see how that could be but I've never run the math.
For the record, I'm talking about like sub 250 wins here. Like, I care about optimal play and getting the fastest possible SVs. If anyone knows the actual math behind Order and Freedom I'd like to hear it.
This summary is good. But 4 cities can be done.
On top of that, wonders: Oracle, PT and Hubbles are the only wonders needed. Otherwise just grow grow grow!
Religion is not necessary, just ally two religious CS and build 4 temples in the industry era, hence the gifting units to CS tenet in Freedom is good.
Tich,
you are vastly superior player compared to me, and I agree with your puzzlement over Hubble rush and Space Procurement. However, I assume the desire of people to pick Freedom to be more tied with Specialist tenets (cause less unhappiness, and over all else, take less food -> more growth -> more science) and the tenet upping the planted Great Person improvements, taking of which often boosts my science output around 100 beaker ballpark.
In my recent Immortal science game, I did have to wait for Nanotech after all of the other parts were built. But Greece was going to win the Diplomatic vote in 3 turns after I researched Nanotech so buying that last part basically won the game for me.
Going into Ideology, which I was the first, I was very weak militarily and my nemesis Greece (with its far larger army and economy) had been Hostile for a while. They would become even more so after they those Order or Autocracy, I forget which. Getting Volunteer Army and instantly upgrading all six Legions to Infantry, at least in my mind, provided a better deterrent to being declared upon (I went up to #3 in soldiers). Could I have done Order instead of Freedom? Absolutely, I normally do but I wanted to see what Freedom could do for me since I had not ever chosen that before.
Going into Ideology, which I was the first, I was very weak militarily and my nemesis Greece (with its far larger army and economy) had been Hostile for a while. They would become even more so after they those Order or Autocracy, I forget which. Getting Volunteer Army and instantly upgrading all six Legions to Infantry, at least in my mind, provided a better deterrent to being declared upon (I went up to #3 in soldiers). Could I have done Order instead of Freedom? Absolutely, I normally do but I wanted to see what Freedom could do for me since I had not ever chosen that before.
Lets consider Korea.
-Specialists comsume only half food - is the only good policy which gives food in all ideologies.
-Specialists produce half unhappiness gives more happiness than any policy in order.
-Buying parts for gold is very nice, when your capital is in jungle. You can have no hammers from terrain at all and you will be absolutely ok. But in this case you can not build parts - it takes too much time. Once I started Apollo, turn later opened Hubble, builded Hubble with GE and continued building Apollo. I won 2-3 turns after finishing Apollo.
-You always more or less understand at what turn you can win. Imagine you have 1600+30 faith at 220 turn and want sub 250 SV. So you can not get 2 GS. Ofc, you can try ally religion CSs, but not always possible. It is convinient to take 1 GS and 1 GE. Also it is a question of RAs - after all upgrades RA give you 2x than GS, so if you rely mostly on friendship and RAs you may have low science and GS wont give that much; if you rely on your bpt than GS is more valuable.
-25% from factories? lets understand what it is. If I have all science buildings in cap, then it is +200%, so 3x[base]. So instead of 3 I get 3.25. In other cities instead of 2.5 I get 2.25. So it is less than 10%. I.e. for 1000 - 100. It is more than one in freedom [+4 from GP -> 12 bpt for each, so ~50], but it makes you to build that factories [also u need find coal], and you need factories cause u go Order, I go Freedom and I do not need to build anything in secondary cities after labs, which I am usually buying.
Also you can consider Venice.
On Freedom;
1. The raw yield of each and every Academy is 4 higher with Freedom. Since every single one will be located in the city with NC, and that is also going to have all science buildings, add 150% percent to the above. This will be 200% if you are lucky enough to start next to a mountain. The Rationalism opener will yield additional science on top of this.
2. Massive growth & happiness bonuses from food. Which will stack extremely well with the Rationalism policy that adds more science to all specialists. In practice this tends to quickly allow all your cities to both grow much faster and have more specalists; going this route in addition to having the non-capital cities fill science slots, they fill the enginner slots as well and sometimes even the merchant slots.
(The capital itself has generally used food cargo ships to get as big as you want before Freedom, but with Freedom, you can then switch those ships over to production and/or switch them over to external routes)
But really, the main science focus about Freedom is that cash to rush all your space ship parts is a whole lot easier to come by then enough GEs to rush them all.
If instead going for Culture or Diplomatic; Freedom has a level 3 tenet that will eventually make you free allies with every city state in which you have a trade route with. (Unless some of the AIs have also both adopted Freedom and run trade routes to the same city state.)
And if you can build CN Tower, Freedom's cultural bonus appears better as well. (It is a bit on the late side though)
1. The raw yield of each and every Academy is 4 higher with Freedom. Since every single one will be located in the city with NC, and that is also going to have all science buildings, add 150% percent to the above. This will be 200% if you are lucky enough to start next to a mountain. The Rationalism opener will yield additional science on top of this.
2. Massive growth & happiness bonuses from food. Which will stack extremely well with the Rationalism policy that adds more science to all specialists. In practice this tends to quickly allow all your cities to both grow much faster and have more specalists; going this route in addition to having the non-capital cities fill science slots, they fill the enginner slots as well and sometimes even the merchant slots.
(The capital itself has generally used food cargo ships to get as big as you want before Freedom, but with Freedom, you can then switch those ships over to production and/or switch them over to external routes)
But really, the main science focus about Freedom is that cash to rush all your space ship parts is a whole lot easier to come by then enough GEs to rush them all.
If instead going for Culture or Diplomatic; Freedom has a level 3 tenet that will eventually make you free allies with every city state in which you have a trade route with. (Unless some of the AIs have also both adopted Freedom and run trade routes to the same city state.)
And if you can build CN Tower, Freedom's cultural bonus appears better as well. (It is a bit on the late side though)
