Modern Age needs to be extended

As soon as people started delving into the files it seems there is another age planned and it seems (considering the generally unfinished state of the game) that they cut the final age from the release game so they could get it out in some sort of working order.

Modern age is way to quick with it just requiring one path to just end the game which is usually doable without much effort in 50-100 turns.

It is so quick that I have barely seen most of the modern stuff nevermind used them as even being able to buy stuff instantly the game ends before you even get the tech.

My main thought/concern (considering they had paid for DLC ready to go on day one) is they will charge for the 4th era and I am holding off on spending any more money in the game until I know how their going to release it.

If they make it paid DLC I am not going to spend any more money on the game. If it gets released for free I will probably buy other DLCs then.
 
I’ve yet to have a full scale ideological world war and I feel like the ideology system is the biggest failure of the modern age. The fact that there is no deterministic path that forces a pick is just wrong. Make political ideology the first culture to get and then have a pop-up which you and the AI pick your ideology. This will totally make the modern age about navigating this and add a bunch more tension to the victory conditions. I’ve finished games where the AI just never picked any.

This will also have the effect of slowing down the start of explorers.

The tech tree also needs to make the second and third tiers of unit upgrades as spread out as possible. It should feel like a significant bump to the military victory to get tanks online and then the next bump at air power. Techs go so fast it just all blurs together.

Increase the cost of everything and I think it would be much more interesting.
Hmm, I also think that ideology is potentially a good mechanic for the evolution of Modern Age civs. Joined Communism? Russia becomes the USSR. Joined Democracy? The French Empire becomes the French Republic, and the Prussian Empire becomes the German Republic.
 
It sure is a little strange that, despite beginning in 1750, the Modern age in-game reaches the real-life "tech level" of the 1910s almost right away.
They really need to put an extra tier in the tech tree between Factories and Railroads/Electricity/Combustion
perhaps Future Tech can be researched in the same Tier as Rocketry (ie Rocketry is for the Science win, everyone else goes straight to Future Tech instead)

If they are going to add a 4th Age, I expect we will say a number of things happen:

1. I believe whole-heartedly they will add new Civs with it, I can see them using nations like Australia, Brazil, Modern America, Soviet Union, etc. I think Humankind actually had a rather good way of handling that Age with cultures anyways, so I don't see it as a impossibility, personally, wouldn't mind switching civ one more time.
2. The game as of now feels like it's "short", Games went from roughly 500 turns to much much lower, so I do think they will eventually extend it.
3. If they are going to add a fourth age, this would defeniately shift the point of the Modern one, I woudl expect the only thing that stays woudl be the Culture and Economic Legacy Paths with 2 new ones added while the Militaristic and Science Path be moved to 4th age. Furthermore, I woudl expect the Culture one in the 4th age to be about National Parks and Tourism and the Economic one to be about possibly Corporations, including the construction of the World Bank, all the Victory conditions would simply be moved to that age.
4. With that, it woudl also mean that they would take out the awkward things like the Manned Space Flight from the Modern Age, not sure what they would replace the Militaristic and Science paths with in the 3rd Age though, can't think of anything historically logical that hasn't already been done in other ages.

Even disregarding the obvious leak, fairly sure Ed Beach has said they want to explore the Cold War, so I expect that that to be the central theme.
For a 4th Age...
The Militaristic Legacy (conquering another civ's settlements) would have to stay in the modern... in a 4th age wars between civs should not happen (MAD)... only wars between Civs and IPs/CSs

Crewed Space flight for Science a a Modern Age concept still makes sense. You could have more of something similar for a 4th age though

For a 4th age I'd want the victory conditions to be a real "Final" victory..
So I would say
The "Victories" each need 2 Legacy conditions
Expansionist Victory (Colonize another planet.. Mars/AC..whatever works) needs both the Science and the Economic Legacies to be complete to unlock.. get the techs+Civcs to build a bunch of stuff together
Diplomatic Victory (Create a World Civilization) needs both the Military and Cultural Legacies to be complete to unlock... get all the civs and CSs to be buying your blue jeans and hosting your military bases.
 
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They really need to put an extra tier in the tech tree between Factories and Railroads/Electricity/Combustion
perhaps Future Tech can be researched in the same Tier as Rocketry (ie Rocketry is for the Science win, everyone else goes straight to Future Tech instead)

Right now, the Modern Age Tech Tree has 6 'Tiers' in an Age that nominally runs from 1750 to about 1960 (first humans in space, roughly), or about 210 years, or 35 years between each Tier of Tech.

The problem with that nice, linear picture is that it would mean that the first 4 Tiers of Tech would all be 19th century and the last Tier would be about 1925 - 1930 and so would have all the modern aircraft, battleships, tanks, rocket boosters et al stuffed into it - and almost no one would ever get a chance to play with them, because the game would be over by then.

All of which simply means that the time between Tech Tiers has to be really elastic to give people any time to play with the modern stuff, but also needs to provide enough 'room' for the 19th century developments of Industrialization and application of steam power to railroads, factories, shipping and warships.

Unfortunately, as applied in the game at present, the Tech Tree virtually skips the firs 100 years of the Age: Steam Engine is in the first Tech Tier, and it gives you Ironclads - the first of which was not launched until 1859, or 109 years after the Age starts.

Tier Two includes Techs giving the gamer the Dreadnaught and Landship, both developments from 1906 - 1916, or 46 - 56 years after the Ironclad, and skipping completely all the pre-dreadnaught naval developments of steam frigates, steam-assisted ships of the line and the first battleships. The Rail Station and railroads also appear in this Tier, making railroads about 70 - 80 years later than they appeared in reality.

Tier Three includes the first aircraft, which in fact appeared at about the same time as the Dreadnaught and Landship (1906 - 1916). This Tier also has the Eifel Tower Wonder, but since that was built 35 years earlier, either the aircraft or the Wonder are Very out of place.

Tier 4 has the Mobilization Tech, which gives you the Battleship, Destroyer, Submarine, and Aircraft Carrier: four ship-types that appeared, respectively, in 1915, 1894, 1901 and 1918 - 1925 (depending on whether you place the aircraft carrier when they first ships were built or when they first got effective ship-carried aircraft like torpedo and dive bombers). In the same Tier is also Armor with a collection of tanks and artillery that date to no earlier than 1932 (antitank guns) but mostly around 1940 (the medium tanks and self-propelled heavy artillery). In short, another Tier that covers almost half a century.

Finally, Tier 5 has the modern monoplane aircraft, even though in fact they were developed at about the same time as the medium tanks and artillery of the previous Tier - 1936 to 1941.

Tier 6 is basically all the rockets and craft necessary for the Launch Science Victory and practically nothing else.

This is a quick overview, but even from this it is obvious that the Modern Age Tech Tree is a mess that slides past half the Age and then presents units and developments completely out of sequence as it careens towards a Science Victory Only last Tech.

At the very least, a revision needs to place railroad development much earlier, place all the WWI developments in the same Tier and all the WWII developments in the same Tier. My Landships should not be crawling about the map for many turns before the first Biplane appears overhead, nor should medium tanks and self-propelled heavy artillery be thundering about long before the first monoplanes take flight.
 
Postmodern Civs will use the adjectival of the Modern Civ you had, but with the 'Government Form' of the Postmodern Civ

My thoughts exactly. And perhaps a few can get special names, like Russia becoming Soviets if the right conditions are met, etc.
 
Hmm, I also think that ideology is potentially a good mechanic for the evolution of Modern Age civs. Joined Communism? Russia becomes the USSR. Joined Democracy? The French Empire becomes the French Republic, and the Prussian Empire becomes the German Republic.
Cold War era is good in theory (1950-1990 abouts) and would let some more fan favorite civs in. The problem is that you run into some currentish real world politics and people who have been victims of the civs in question.

Sure you would have Soviet Union, PRC, USA, UK, France, West Germany, India, and Showa or Bubble Japan. Maybe Czechslovakia or Yugoslavia.

Africa: Ghana and Republic of Egypt probably the safest bets and Egypt is iffy.
S America: Brazil? Argentina? Chile?
West Asia either Saudi Arabia, Jordan, or Türkiye
 
Right now, the Modern Age Tech Tree has 6 'Tiers' in an Age that nominally runs from 1750 to about 1960 (first humans in space, roughly), or about 210 years, or 35 years between each Tier of Tech.

The problem with that nice, linear picture is that it would mean that the first 4 Tiers of Tech would all be 19th century and the last Tier would be about 1925 - 1930 and so would have all the modern aircraft, battleships, tanks, rocket boosters et al stuffed into it - and almost no one would ever get a chance to play with them, because the game would be over by then.

All of which simply means that the time between Tech Tiers has to be really elastic to give people any time to play with the modern stuff, but also needs to provide enough 'room' for the 19th century developments of Industrialization and application of steam power to railroads, factories, shipping and warships.

Unfortunately, as applied in the game at present, the Tech Tree virtually skips the firs 100 years of the Age: Steam Engine is in the first Tech Tier, and it gives you Ironclads - the first of which was not launched until 1859, or 109 years after the Age starts.

Tier Two includes Techs giving the gamer the Dreadnaught and Landship, both developments from 1906 - 1916, or 46 - 56 years after the Ironclad, and skipping completely all the pre-dreadnaught naval developments of steam frigates, steam-assisted ships of the line and the first battleships. The Rail Station and railroads also appear in this Tier, making railroads about 70 - 80 years later than they appeared in reality.

Tier Three includes the first aircraft, which in fact appeared at about the same time as the Dreadnaught and Landship (1906 - 1916). This Tier also has the Eifel Tower Wonder, but since that was built 35 years earlier, either the aircraft or the Wonder are Very out of place.

Tier 4 has the Mobilization Tech, which gives you the Battleship, Destroyer, Submarine, and Aircraft Carrier: four ship-types that appeared, respectively, in 1915, 1894, 1901 and 1918 - 1925 (depending on whether you place the aircraft carrier when they first ships were built or when they first got effective ship-carried aircraft like torpedo and dive bombers). In the same Tier is also Armor with a collection of tanks and artillery that date to no earlier than 1932 (antitank guns) but mostly around 1940 (the medium tanks and self-propelled heavy artillery). In short, another Tier that covers almost half a century.

Finally, Tier 5 has the modern monoplane aircraft, even though in fact they were developed at about the same time as the medium tanks and artillery of the previous Tier - 1936 to 1941.

Tier 6 is basically all the rockets and craft necessary for the Launch Science Victory and practically nothing else.

This is a quick overview, but even from this it is obvious that the Modern Age Tech Tree is a mess that slides past half the Age and then presents units and developments completely out of sequence as it careens towards a Science Victory Only last Tech.

At the very least, a revision needs to place railroad development much earlier, place all the WWI developments in the same Tier and all the WWII developments in the same Tier. My Landships should not be crawling about the map for many turns before the first Biplane appears overhead, nor should medium tanks and self-propelled heavy artillery be thundering about long before the first monoplanes take flight.

If there was a fourth era added what I would do would be make the Modern era, renamed Industrial Era, basically be 1750 to 1940. The crisis being WWI, economic downturn and rising political violence after WWI, and WW2. Modern Era would be 1945-1990ish.
 
Right now, the Modern Age Tech Tree has 6 'Tiers' in an Age that nominally runs from 1750 to about 1960 (first humans in space, roughly), or about 210 years, or 35 years between each Tier of Tech.

The problem with that nice, linear picture is that it would mean that the first 4 Tiers of Tech would all be 19th century and the last Tier would be about 1925 - 1930 and so would have all the modern aircraft, battleships, tanks, rocket boosters et al stuffed into it - and almost no one would ever get a chance to play with them, because the game would be over by then.

All of which simply means that the time between Tech Tiers has to be really elastic to give people any time to play with the modern stuff, but also needs to provide enough 'room' for the 19th century developments of Industrialization and application of steam power to railroads, factories, shipping and warships.

Unfortunately, as applied in the game at present, the Tech Tree virtually skips the firs 100 years of the Age: Steam Engine is in the first Tech Tier, and it gives you Ironclads - the first of which was not launched until 1859, or 109 years after the Age starts.

Tier Two includes Techs giving the gamer the Dreadnaught and Landship, both developments from 1906 - 1916, or 46 - 56 years after the Ironclad, and skipping completely all the pre-dreadnaught naval developments of steam frigates, steam-assisted ships of the line and the first battleships. The Rail Station and railroads also appear in this Tier, making railroads about 70 - 80 years later than they appeared in reality.

Tier Three includes the first aircraft, which in fact appeared at about the same time as the Dreadnaught and Landship (1906 - 1916). This Tier also has the Eifel Tower Wonder, but since that was built 35 years earlier, either the aircraft or the Wonder are Very out of place.

Tier 4 has the Mobilization Tech, which gives you the Battleship, Destroyer, Submarine, and Aircraft Carrier: four ship-types that appeared, respectively, in 1915, 1894, 1901 and 1918 - 1925 (depending on whether you place the aircraft carrier when they first ships were built or when they first got effective ship-carried aircraft like torpedo and dive bombers). In the same Tier is also Armor with a collection of tanks and artillery that date to no earlier than 1932 (antitank guns) but mostly around 1940 (the medium tanks and self-propelled heavy artillery). In short, another Tier that covers almost half a century.

Finally, Tier 5 has the modern monoplane aircraft, even though in fact they were developed at about the same time as the medium tanks and artillery of the previous Tier - 1936 to 1941.

Tier 6 is basically all the rockets and craft necessary for the Launch Science Victory and practically nothing else.

This is a quick overview, but even from this it is obvious that the Modern Age Tech Tree is a mess that slides past half the Age and then presents units and developments completely out of sequence as it careens towards a Science Victory Only last Tech.

At the very least, a revision needs to place railroad development much earlier, place all the WWI developments in the same Tier and all the WWII developments in the same Tier. My Landships should not be crawling about the map for many turns before the first Biplane appears overhead, nor should medium tanks and self-propelled heavy artillery be thundering about long before the first monoplanes take flight.
I'd probably do
Tier 1 Factory(Industrialization... allow building it without a Railroad, but it only gives a big Production boost) ~1750-1810
Tier 2 Railroads**(ie allows Factory Resources to start earning points) , Rifles (Infantry+Cavalry improvement) ~1810-1850
Tier 3 Ironclad/Dreadnaughts, Artillery+Range unit Improvements, Electricity, Factories and RR allowed in Towns ~1850-1890
Tier 4 Infantry+Artillery+Battleships WWI, Radio, Flight* (Aerodrome: provides vision and combat bonus in range, but no actual Air units) ~1890-1920
Tier 5 Aircraft*+Tanks WWII 1920-1940
Tier 6 Rocketry* (Artillery boost)... Launch pad etc. is under Mastery

*Science Victory Projects require Mastery
**Mastery required to build RR without Factory

so all the WW are in the second 1/2 of the tech tree and their isn't a unique version of each unit for each WWar.

Then to ensure you get there... massively increase the victory # requirements for Economic and have techs/civics/buildings/policies later that give bonuses to how fast you earn them. (or possibly just have it be a Total amount as opposed to 1 per turn)
Cultural... is its own issue to solve.
 
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I made a thread in the ideas/suggestions forum about this same topic so I'm glad to see more people agree. Something that is really noticeable for the modern age's tech tree (and the other two ages' for that matter) is how it all funnels down to rocketry rather than branching out like previous games' tech trees.

I think a good way to handle potential atomic and information age techs being added to the modern age would be to widen the tree by placing some of the techs in a lower tier at the same cost but on a separate branch while adding the new techs to the later tiers in separate branches. This would allow for players to specialize a bit more as well. A final tier for end game techs with at least 4 branches and masteries could suffice with this setup I think.

Honestly a wider tech tree + final tier is something I'd like to see done for every age.
 
By itself I don't think adding another age following the same patterns as what went before solves the issues.

If a game ends mid-age because one civ reached their victory condition, then that age will still feel like a race whether it's industrial or modern era. The civs in thay age will feel less relevant because you're beelining a goal. And adding another round of legacy-path snowballing to a 4th age probably just makes it end that much quicker.

i think if there is a 4th age it needs to be a drastic departure from previous ages. Probably no age-specific civs, as any civs in that era wouldn't get to shine anyway. Just let the player pick one of their previous civs as their graphical identity, with the accumulates uniques and traditions, and just keep the era as a short push to your specific victory in some form.
 
By itself I don't think adding another age following the same patterns as what went before solves the issues.

If a game ends mid-age because one civ reached their victory condition, then that age will still feel like a race whether it's industrial or modern era. The civs in thay age will feel less relevant because you're beelining a goal. And adding another round of legacy-path snowballing to a 4th age probably just makes it end that much quicker.

i think if there is a 4th age it needs to be a drastic departure from previous ages. Probably no age-specific civs, as any civs in that era wouldn't get to shine anyway. Just let the player pick one of their previous civs as their graphical identity, with the accumulates uniques and traditions, and just keep the era as a short push to your specific victory in some form.
Yes, that's really the point in my opinion. The problem is the race to victory. That's the reason why the modern age is too short and you hardly get to enjoy the age/civs to full extent. The way out is to outsource victory to the fourth age that is just that: a 30-50 turn race to victory during the atomic age. No new civs, only one tier of units and buildings (1980-1990ish), and ways to stop your opponents from winning through competition in the respective fields.This means:
- you can stop military victory through war. Espionage can sabotage other civs.
- you can stop a science victory by being faster to unlock and completing the project. Espionage can sabotage other civs.
- you can stop a economic victory by investing money into a sanction against other players' world bank efforts.
- you can stop a cultural victory by investing some of your culture into a sanction against other players' world's fair efforts.
I guess this could also help the AI to actually go for the victories.

Then, the modern era (1750-1950) can be a full age that is played until you reach 100% and you have a world war crisis, a fast-spreading spanish flu, a revolution, independence movements etc. There are enough possibilities to make this fun.

In contrast, extending the 3rd age means nothing as long as there is the race for victory. And delaying the victory by moving e.g., factories later in the tech tree isn't a solution, as it just means that science is even more important for the economic victory, while conquest will still be rather fast (or the AI will take frustratingly long to pick up an ideology).
 
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Since this topic comes over and over, I made a small table to show different options to prolong the game to contemporary age:
1742127754034.png
 
Good comparison, but it seems biased towards the first option :mischief:

I'd say that having a new roster of civs for a 4th age is a big downside - both for Firaxis (in having to work out and balance a new crop of civs) and players who suffer from civ switching fatigue if asked to do it again a third time. And if civ switching is already controversial with some as it is, doing it again for a 4th age is doubling down on it, which may not be wise.
 
Good comparison, but it seems biased towards the first option :mischief:

I'd say that having a new roster of civs for a 4th age is a big downside - both for Firaxis (in having to work out and balance a new crop of civs) and players who suffer from civ switching fatigue if asked to do it again a third time. And if civ switching is already controversial with some as it is, doing it again for a 4th age is doubling down on it, which may not be wise.
I'm not biased towards the first solution, because I liked it, it's actually the other way around - I like it, because on comparison it looks like the best option.

I'm ready to add other important points to the comparison. But I find it hard to formulate the point about civ switching fatigue, because it's generally in the last one (follow/break Civ7 core design). It's just if you don't like Civ7 core game design, you'll dislike following it even more...
 
Good comparison, but it seems biased towards the first option :mischief:

I'd say that having a new roster of civs for a 4th age is a big downside - both for Firaxis (in having to work out and balance a new crop of civs) and players who suffer from civ switching fatigue if asked to do it again a third time. And if civ switching is already controversial with some as it is, doing it again for a 4th age is doubling down on it, which may not be wise.
Agreed.

There need to be negative options for the first solution:
- doesn’t solve the problem the modern age is having, just transfers it to the 4th age
- severely limits the number of civs per age
 
Agreed.

There need to be negative options for the first solution:
- doesn’t solve the problem the modern age is having, just transfers it to the 4th age
- severely limits the number of civs per age
I'm ready to add more points to comparison, but I need clarifications on them:

1. As I see it, 4th age at least solves the problem of Modern age length, because it removes all victory conditions and score victory becomes age transition point instead. Which other problems you see there, which could be solved by age prolongation, but not 4th age?
2. What do you mean by "severely limits the number of civs per age"?
 
both for Firaxis (in having to work out and balance a new crop of civs)
I'm a bit worried about morale at FXS too. Maybe you can individually lean against this by getting in a combative mood and double down against the vitriol, but these are a bunch of introverted guys (have to be). The current hate spiral (not here, but elsewhere) won't feel great for them - and they can't block it out either - have to collect useful feedback somehow.
 
I'm ready to add more points to comparison, but I need clarifications on them:

1. As I see it, 4th age at least solves the problem of Modern age length, because it removes all victory conditions and score victory becomes age transition point instead. Which other problems you see there, which could be solved by age prolongation, but not 4th age?
If the 4th age is a full age just as the other 3 but with a victory condition built in, it will just take over the current problems from the 3 age: now the third age will be fine (with some tweaks), but the 4th age will be short and just a race towards victory. This is why I think the solution of a 4th age that is just the victory race and no full age is superior.
2. What do you mean by "severely limits the number of civs per age"?
The total number of civs in the game is limited. We don't know the number (and nobody does yet), but we can call it "x". With 3 full ages, each age has x/3 civs. With 4 full ages, each age only has x/4 civs. Given how many people wish for more fleshed out "pathways" in the already existing three ages, slowing down the process of fleshing out by adding a fourth, and further limiting the total number of civs per age, should be considered a severe downside of a 4th age with its own civs.

Another upside of a victory-only 4th age is that these could be made for the earlier ages as well, i.e., you can have an antiquity only game + victory phase and an exploration only game + victory phase.
 
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