SE changed my life

I've had a lot of fun and successful domination/conquest games with Lincoln and a Hybrid Economy. The ratio is more towards specialists at the beginning, and more towards cottages at the end.

Making the transition is eased by Emancipation... as well as those fully developed towns that (used to) belong to your neighbor's cities.
 
think ill try the hybrid approach in my next game then, slightly worried that upon the transition to cottages that my GP rate will drop a bit but igues they arent as useful late game anyways.

the starts of games can be tricky with SE approach as it can be v tempting to whip em down and not put them to specialists
 
Yeah if you have representation it works well, otherwise cottages are better in my opinion: the problem is you need to work two tiles to feed a specialist whereas you could also work those two tiles with cottages. When the cottage grew to a village, the tiles will each generate 3 :commerce: more than the farmed tiles which is the same bonus you get from your specialist with representation. In addition to that, you only need two citizens to work the tiles instead of three.
Once they grew to towns and/or you researched things like Printing Press or Free Speech - or you intend to use Universal Suffrage they are way better.

A specialist economy works decently well but only if you have the Pyramids, and even then it's still not really a lot better (agreed the GP help a bit) - unless you have Philosophical and adopt Pacifism or build the Parthenon you're not very likely to get a lot of GP in most cities.

In fact I often have one specialist city to build the National Epic which goes that route (and pumps out GP), but not more.
 
Yeah if you have representation it works well, otherwise cottages are better in my opinion: the problem is you need to work two tiles to feed a specialist whereas you could also work those two tiles with cottages. When the cottage grew to a village, the tiles will each generate 3 :commerce: more than the farmed tiles which is the same bonus you get from your specialist with representation. In addition to that, you only need two citizens to work the tiles instead of three.
Once they grew to towns and/or you researched things like Printing Press or Free Speech - or you intend to use Universal Suffrage they are way better.

A specialist economy works decently well but only if you have the Pyramids, and even then it's still not really a lot better (agreed the GP help a bit) - unless you have Philosophical and adopt Pacifism or build the Parthenon you're not very likely to get a lot of GP in most cities.

In fact I often have one specialist city to build the National Epic which goes that route (and pumps out GP), but not more.

It works well without representation. Bulb to monopoly techs and trade to keep tech parity along with building an academy in a city and then settling all GS's there. The thing with specialist economies is that the production in SE is unmatched by that of CE in the early to late mid game, which is why many advocate and use specialist oriented economies with some commerce cities in the first half of the game and tend to cottage around the time emancipation gets around (when the cost of techs start to become prohibitive). SE also lends itself excellently to warmongering since you are independent of the science slider (you can run at 0% science even) and instead pump culture to keep war weariness down and go on very prolonged campaigns, complemented by the production.

CE outstrips SE in beakers per turn and of course gold by around late mid game (industrial age), which calls for hybrid.

There are more in depth articles/guides as well as succession games posted in these forums; I think they are in Strategy+Tips,
 
Yeah the problem with warring is that you have to use the culture slider a lot more because your cities are larger.

I tried it, but found cottages to be more to my taste and stronger. It probably has to do with the fact that I often play without tech trading because if I play with it, the game becomes much easier for me: I can bribe other civs much more easily and stay at their heels tech-wise without a lot of fuss exactly because I know which techs the AI won't research quickly and therefore can be traded with three or four civs at somewhat unfair exchange rates.

Besides, for information: I usually play on Emperor or Immortal which means the happiness and health points are major issues with SE for me.
I had games where I did really well with it but they were usually with a Philosophical leader and because I chopped myself the Pyramids.
 
absolutely, SE only works in very specialised situations. I just love the +3 science for every specialist (from rep) which give it more value in some circumstances than cottages etc. also running mercantilism does over the other civs to a degree as they dont gethe gold from your cities. i play on emporer or monarch a fair bit and i agree it can be hard to grow too much with the happy and helth caps but still possible with good trading and resourse management.
 
Specialists economy are more fun to play. I'll give you that. It may be sub-optimal in many circumstances, but it is quite fun.

The main reason: getting plenty of gp is much more fun than watching your cottages grow by themselves.

Since they are so much fun, I often wish that we would be able to get more GP per game. It would probably change the game balance, but there are so many nice strategies one can do with specialists that it is fun to use their various abilities. For example, I remember when vanilla civ4 came out, they were talking a lot about the use of culture bomb as a military strategy. I used it a bit at the time, it is fun to watch your borders grow suddenly. But I hardly ever do that anymore because I often think it is a slight waste of a specialist that could give me 3 beakers (under representation) and much more culture on the long run.

We also have to take into account the fact that golden ages got better (great idea btw), that poping technologies or settling in cities have proved to be (usually) better strategies and that there are now corporations to build with great people...
Conclusion, Great people got more precious, which means you often can't afford the luxury to use one of them for a sub-optimal (even though fun) strategy.

BTW, I remember a strategy article claiming that even with Philosophical leaders and the appropriate wonder and civic, you don't get that much more specialists (1 or 2 I think) in the course of the game. You get them faster, but not that much more of them).
 
Yeah the problem with warring is that you have to use the culture slider a lot more because your cities are larger.

I tried it, but found cottages to be more to my taste and stronger. It probably has to do with the fact that I often play without tech trading because if I play with it, the game becomes much easier for me: I can bribe other civs much more easily and stay at their heels tech-wise without a lot of fuss exactly because I know which techs the AI won't research quickly and therefore can be traded with three or four civs at somewhat unfair exchange rates.

Besides, for information: I usually play on Emperor or Immortal which means the happiness and health points are major issues with SE for me.
I had games where I did really well with it but they were usually with a Philosophical leader and because I chopped myself the Pyramids.

My experience is very similar to this, but I play with Tech Trading on because it seems to limit the AI if it cant trade techs with itself. One thing I have noticed is that the CE is a lot more susceptible to the getting its water supply poisoned (w/ Solvers Patch). An SE city can usually muster enough food to fight it off where a CE city is screwed.
 
7 headed hydra?

That is referring to the number of religions a player has founded. There have been references since CIV came out for the 3 headed hydra (Hindu, Buddhist, and Jewish) all founded by the player. There was a classic Succession game by Sirian and Sulla on this, Cuban Isolationists, where Spain started on a lake and due to the extra commerce they collected all three of the early religions on Prince.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=133492
 
[snipped...]
We also have to take into account the fact that golden ages got better (great idea btw),[...snipped...]

A bit off the topic of the thread, but I guess I missed how golden ages got better. What did 2k/Firaxis change?

BTW, I remember a strategy article claiming that even with Philosophical leaders and the appropriate wonder and civic, you don't get that much more specialists (1 or 2 I think) in the course of the game. You get them faster, but not that much more of them).

I read that as well, with the basic idea being that the philosophical is a 1/2x multiplier but the GP's get much more expensive over time, so they claimed only about a 50% increase overall. BUT, I just realized reading your comment that early GP's are better than late GP's overall, though I understand there are important later game techs etc., since the early boost can be multiplied over time by growth. Even with "only" +50% GP's, earlier GP's are still a nice bonus. That makes me more interested in trying philosophical again, the Lord willing. I just with there were a Industrious/Philosophical leader. :(
 
A bit off the topic of the thread, but I guess I missed how golden ages got better.

you can now have multiple golden ages

first one cost 1 GP
second cost 2, third costs 3, etc..
 
who cares.... in a SE system with all the specialists that +100% rate is huge! with parthenon (+50%) and national wonder (+100%) and pacifism (+100%) = 350%! cant argue with 38 GP in a game
 
you can now have multiple golden ages

first one cost 1 GP
second cost 2, third costs 3, etc..

It has always been possible to have multiple golden ages. They just cost less GP then they used to. The first Golden age now costs 1 GP, while prior to BTS, the first golden age cost 2 GP.

On how Golden age got better:
- It now doubles GP points for the duration of the golden age
- No anarchy between civic changes

Thirdly: if you manage to get the Mausoleum of Maussollos, the golden age last 50% longer. = even more worthwhile
That is 15 turns on epic speed instead of 10. This means three golden age for the price of two. Which means three golden ages at the cost of three Great people compared to three golden age at the price of 5 Great people...
 
I read that as well, with the basic idea being that the philosophical is a 1/2x multiplier but the GP's get much more expensive over time, so they claimed only about a 50% increase overall. BUT, I just realized reading your comment that early GP's are better than late GP's overall, though I understand there are important later game techs etc., since the early boost can be multiplied over time by growth. Even with "only" +50% GP's, earlier GP's are still a nice bonus. That makes me more interested in trying philosophical again, the Lord willing. I just with there were a Industrious/Philosophical leader. :(

Of course, earlier GPs are better, much better. We should try to find this old article, as I'd really like to know how much more GP you can really get. I was under the impression that it was not much more than 1 or 2 for the philosphical trait. My memory sometimes plays tricks on me.
No matter what, philosophical is still a very good trait, because earlier GP is definitely a great advantage.

Yeah, I'd also like to try a industrious/philosophical leader. With the wet dream of warmongers (Boudica (Agg/Cha)) now in the game, I don't see why builders couldn't have their dream leader as well...
 
who cares.... in a SE system with all the specialists that +100% rate is huge! with parthenon (+50%) and national wonder (+100%) and pacifism (+100%) = 350%! cant argue with 38 GP in a game
Compared to what? That was the purpose of my comment on this. I can't find the article that did the GP math, but the impression I (and others) got was that you don't get that much more GP with this rate because of the ever increasing cap for the next GP. You just get them faster (which is still pretty good).
 
It's definitely not double the the Great Persons, but it's still more. The key is mainly getting them sooner so that your empire benefits sooner. Often on monarch and higher, getting a GP is really key to pop an important tech, either just to trade or for use.

One game a long time ago I played Fredrick, and by end of the game, I settled I believe it was 15 Great Scientists in my capitol, but it was still lower overall :science: than a CE. I think it was like around 400 :science:.
 
Compared to what?


well its a multiplier so depends on how many specialists you are running. obviously mean more the more you run (+100% of 6 is significantly more than of 2 lol). just off the top of my head from that last game id say it made a difference but yes you are right, i do not know how much of a dif.
 
Of course, earlier GPs are better, much better. We should try to find this old article, as I'd really like to know how much more GP you can really get. I was under the impression that it was not much more than 1 or 2 for the philosphical trait. My memory sometimes plays tricks on me.
No matter what, philosophical is still a very good trait, because earlier GP is definitely a great advantage.

Yeah, I'd also like to try a industrious/philosophical leader. With the wet dream of warmongers (Boudica (Agg/Cha)) now in the game, I don't see why builders couldn't have their dream leader as well...

If we assume that Phi does nothing but double your GP points (which is slightly biased in favor of Phi considering the Parthenon, National Epic and Pacifism but easy to understand), the effect is basically the same as if you'd get the GP for half the price.
Therefore, since each GP costs 100 more than the previous (i.e. a fixed difference), we can handle Phi as if it'd only cost 50 more. So under those simple assumptions you do get twice as many GP than normally (unless I'm doing some strange mistake).

If we didn't have a fixed difference but one that depends on how many GP you already had, you wouldn't get many more but since it's a fixed width you do.

Edit: Just got me a pen and paper and calced it through. Assuming n is the number of GP points divided by 100 (since we get a GP at every 100), the question is how many GP did we get in total at n?
Mathematically, we define this as an inequation:
sup (sum i from 1 to k) <= n, i.e. the greatest number k for which 1+2+3+...+(k-1)+k<=n or each GP weighted with their cost is still smaller than our current pool.
Gauß found out a few hundred years ago that the sum equals

k/2 * (k+1)=1/2(k^2+k) <= n
k^2 + k - 2n <= 0

Using the p-q-formula:

k <= -1/2 + sqrt(1/4 + 2n) (second solution omitted because it'd become negative)

If we take the maximum of all whole numbers that satisfy that inequality, we arrive at our total number of GP, k_max
For example plugging in 10 (or 1000 points) we get out k=4, which fits (100+200+300+400=1000)

Under the above assumptions, with philosophical we replace n->2n and get

k2 <= -1/2 + sqrt(1/4 + 4n)

So you were indeed right, we don't get twice as many. Instead, we get roughly sqrt(2) times as many GP than normal (for slightly larger n), so roughly 40%

As mentioned things get worse if we decide on some other function than n->2n, for example if we usually have Pacifism anyways we go for n->1.5n and respectively we get about sqrt(3/2) as many, which is only about 22% more.

However you do get the first one in roughly half the time and we all know that they're most useful at the start...
Still I don't find Phi that strong (although building the Uni cheaper is nice, too).


In case you wonder why my initial thought was wrong: Well it wasn't, I just didn't see that halving the number of points required wouldn't mean that you'd get twice as many GP because yes, you would get them at 50, 100, 150, 200, 250, 300 but by then you'll have a total cost of 1050 whereas with the normal rate you'd get them at 100, 200, 300, 400 where you have a cost of 1000. It just doesn't halve your total points but only the individual points required for each step.
 
If we assume that Phi does nothing but double your GP points (which is slightly biased in favor of Phi considering the Parthenon, National Epic and Pacifism but easy to understand), the effect is basically the same as if you'd get the GP for half the price.
Therefore, since each GP costs 100 more than the previous (i.e. a fixed difference), we can handle Phi as if it'd only cost 50 more. So under those simple assumptions you do get twice as many GP than normally (unless I'm doing some strange mistake).

...It does not strictly do this. An example: We're at our first GP with a wonder and a specialist. that's 5:gp:/turn. It'll take us 20 turns without Phi and 10 with - this is because there are no other multipliers. Say we build National Epic - the :gp: output is now 6 per turn before modifiers. Without Phi that's 9 turns, while with Phi it's 6 turns. Not double as fast any more. Phi is a modifier along same lines as NE, Parthenon, Golden age and Pacifism.
 
mercantilism for me was my biggest shock. i had never used it ever in civ 4 b4 this game for fear of money lost...but it works amazingly as the free specialist much more useful that stupid gold coins :)

They aren't gold coins, they are commerce. If you're running 100% science each trade route will equal more or less a scientist specialist, and you'll get about 4 in each city. In continents maps this bonus is even higher, so I fail to understand your statement, since with Mercantilism you will only get 1 free specialist.
 
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