Selling open borders to AI... yes or no?

[MykC]

Most often I can get 50G for open borders, sometimes its 43, 30, 17...10. I always accepted pretty much whatever they are willing to give me but some suggest this is not good to do, but I don't see why.

I also sell the strategic resources I don't use to the AI as well. Any thoughts?

 

[grdolph]

Well, it seems to me that some stronger neighbour might attack you if you give him open borders and finds out that you're weak.

 

[stormerne]

I habitually refuse mutual open border agreements (but do accept pacts of cooperation with strong civs). This allows me to sell open borders, but I never do. Why not? Because (a) the amount of cash is pifflingly small (even multiplied by the number of civs you've met), and (b) it's not worth the future risk being mapped out. In other words, not good value for money.

Work it out for yourself. Suppose you are playing a standard game and you sell your open borders to all 7 civs for an average of 40 gold each. That's 280 gold total. That's enough to buy you one defensive spearman (240 gold), but not enough to buy you walls for even a single city (500 gold). Is it worth it?

As for the neighbor being stronger and finding out about you, the AI can already look at the same demographic screen that you can. That will tell them whether you're top or bottom of any category, including militarily, but not the shades of grey in between. And if you allow a settler through, do you want a new city springing up on your far borders effectively surrounding you?

In summary, if you're strong enough not to care whether they do reconnaissance and later attack, you're probably also wealthy enough not to care about that paltry level of gold. If that level of gold will make a difference, you're better keeping your doors closed.

 

[wurstburst]

I always sell open borders, even to enemies. I take their gold and do something productive with it.

The other civs are going to eventually attack you anyway. Selling open borders gives a slight improvement to relations (as do all trades) and gives you money that you wouldn't otherwise have. Win-Win situation. There's no downside in my book.

That extra 250 might be the difference between being able to make a CS an ally or not, which can really help your empire. Or it might get you that library rush bought 20 turns earlier, or it might get you that archer you need to hold off an attack. Or it might let you buy a few tiles around your cities, to grab a few luxuries, to sell for even more money.

It's not game breaking, but the little things can make a difference, particularly early on.

 

[Cedbird]

All of the above made great points . It really depends on your personality as a leader both are valid approaches . I don t do open borders unless its mutual . I think I lean to Wursburst side though . That extra cash can come in handy big time to get you thru a tough stretch

 

[JudgeDeath]

On easier difficulties I take the money, because I'm not worried about the AI. On Deity I only say yes if they're not in a position to take advantage. Storm is right - give it to the wrong AI and you could regret it.

 

[CharonJr]

I am in the always sell open borders camp, too.

IMO it comes down on how aggressive you want to play. If you expect to be at war with most civs anyway then there is no harm in selling open borders.

If you want to play a peaceful game then selling open borders might be a bad idea unless you have a fairly large army.

CharonJr

 

[Soronery]

I stopped selling open borders. I think you get attacked less often if you don't do it.

 

[avl8]

I use trading open borders mainly to check my attitude with AIs.

50 means they treat me as a partner, definetely worth selling, wont be a trouble during next 20-30 turns. Usually its possible when AI has settled far far away and you got pact of cooperation running. Usually the next step will be setting up PoC, then defensive pact after 2-3 nice trades.

43 means something troubles them, mb borders are too close and they sense some danger. Could be a problem soon, but still worth selling for me.

25 gold or less means trouble, AI will DoW on me pretty soon if some1 wont DoW on him asap with or without my help. I wont resell borders even for a short term income, will get my units on defensive positions.

0 gold or "this stands just as it looks to me" actually could mean different things. Thats often the first reaction of AI on me. Its just havent got any information about my civ, its position and numbers. Wont give a thing for free that way. But i will scan him with qustions about pacts of secrecy against others. If i get at least 1 "Agree" its ok and I expect him to offer 50g during next 10-15 turns. Otherwise see "25 gold and less" section

Sometimes angry AI just wants your borders open to re-map your territory before he DoW. That way they ask for a "fair" change open borders for open borders. The trick is if you ask for a money itll be like 25 gold for your borders instead of 50. Sounds like a cheap trick for me and a easy way to scan his intentions

I dont see any risks being mapped by would be aggressor AI. Closed borders wont help if they settle near me and occasionally wont get DoWed by someone else. If the borders are close, they will hate you and DoW on you sooner or later. Unless they have someone they hate even more. In that case youll be their best friend until they get rid of the enemy.

 

[iggymnrr]

Depends somewhat on where the AI is. Getting some money for virtually nothing is hard to pass up if the AI is far away.

 

[PScirocco]

After I back-fill my land-blocked backdoors, I usually sell open border, especially to ones farther away.

It's practically free if you have an actual choke point, and stuff that choke with units, so they'll never get in with a settler or a potential back stabber

 

[KingMorgan]

I'll always sell open borders early on, never for less than 43g - unless i'm desperate.

~200 gold at a time when you earn 5 per turn is so useful and powerful for buying CS - these days i'm allying early with a couple of culture vultures using that gold and opening professional army around t85 for my Longsword rush.

 

[JudgeDeath]

avl8 makes a good point. I hadn't thought of using it as a check.

The reason I don't sell sometimes is that I block off an area for later development and I don't want them sending a settler through. Now if you can block them it's OK, and if there's nowhere to settle it's OK too.

 

[wurstburst]

I don't build very many of my own cities - usually only 2 on a standard size map - the rest is puppets.

So, there's no reason for me to block off the other civs from settling, in most cases. In fact, I'd rather they settle near me, so that when I attack them and puppet their cities, I get cities near my core empire.

 

[TomW]

I always sell open borders for as much as I can get or I give them away for free. But then, so far, I have only been playing single-city challenges (but having puppets). As a single-city, you are going to be mapped out regardless. I think it must take quite a cluster of cities with good culture to avoid being mapped out, at least in a substantial way. What does avoiding being completely mapped accomplish? Is there a natural wonder in the middle of your empire that is going to give you some huge advantage if you keep it all to yourself?

Regardless of open borders or not, the AI knows your resources. The AI knows your military ranking. Probably the AI has complete knowledge of your army, because the AI probably cheats in this way like most every other strategy game that has ever been made which hopes to provide some challenge. In other game's cheats inculding those of the civ series, the AI knows where your cities are even if it has no map to them. The AI has complete knowledge of your strength. So what is the downside for granting open borders?

What are the upsides? There is money and improved relations. Well I think the analysis of what 280 gold is going to do for you is pretty shallow. A propper investment of 280 gold is going to net you much more in the long term; and you would be getting that 280 gold every 30 turns and then more as you explore to find more civs. The reinvestment of what you make from your initial investments is going to be more also. The difference between a policy of no open borders and always sell open borders is going to be the difference of many thousands of gold by turn 200. Also, relations appear to be improved by open borders as with any trade. A nation that gives nothing for open borders often gives 50 gold for the trade the next time. It does not seem that any other relations are damaged by "trading with our worst enemy."

Okay, I do know of one bad side of open borders and that is that an AI can move troops right up to your city before it declares war. But this has only ever happened to me once because of the never-ending-deal bug. I mean, the open borders deal lasted for over a century before the other civ DoWed. If I could have renewed the deal every 30 years as I should have been able to do, then the AI would probably be pleased enough not to have wanted to DoW. Anyway, I only lost one puppet city for a few turns time because of this blitzkrieg. But the only downside for now is due to a bug, that open borders can remain stuck for the remainder of the game.

Well another downside is that sometimes the AI temporarily blocks your worker's ability to improve a tile. Luckily the AI doesn't exploit this so it only means the loss of a worker turn every now and then.

 

[stormerne]

What are the upsides? There is money and improved relations. Well I think the analysis of what 280 gold is going to do for you is pretty shallow. A propper investment of 280 gold is going to net you much more in the long term; and you would be getting that 280 gold every 30 turns and then more as you explore to find more civs. The reinvestment of what you make from your initial investments is going to be more also. The difference between a policy of no open borders and always sell open borders is going to be the difference of many thousands of gold by turn 200. Also, relations appear to be improved by open borders as with any trade. A nation that gives nothing for open borders often gives 50 gold for the trade the next time. It does not seem that any other relations are damaged by "trading with our worst enemy."

We have different playing styles. I really don't think it scales as you describe - at least it doesn't in my games because I tend to be producing a lot of gold to gift to city states on a regular basis - but no matter. Let's look at some figures...

Selling open borders to all 7 standard map civs, rinsing and repeating every 30 turns will keep just one city state allied with me (approximately, as it varies on the era, whether you're Alex and whether you have Philanthropy). So what will I do for the other 15 city states?

So unless I am going for a domination victory, I will often have a city state economy, meaning I'm replete with food and I am growing gold everywhere. So it's (a) 9 gold per turn from selling open borders to 7 civs plus the risk, or (b) 3 trading posts on a river. Which would you choose?

 

[avl8]

Heh, I choose 3 tradeposts PLUS that 9 gold per turn anyday. Think of open borders as a free nice test (of ai attitude) and free gold. Who doesnt like free gold?

 

[Airey]

Selling open borders to all 7 standard map civs, rinsing and repeating every 30 turns will keep just one city state allied with me (approximately, as it varies on the era, whether you're Alex and whether you have Philanthropy). So what will I do for the other 15 city states?

Just a side note, you can buy AI to war CS for around 300G and when you war that AI and kill 3 units, you'll gain +100 relation with CS.

It's a cheaper alternative to buying CS relation.

 

[avl8]

Just a side note, you can buy AI to war CS for around 300G and when you war that AI and kill 3 units, you'll gain +100 relation with CS.

It's a cheaper alternative to buying CS relation.

Hmm nice one
Do you need to kill those 3 units on CS territory to gain 100 pts with CS?

Tho its a bit tricky since by killing those 3 units you definetely going to lose those +100 relation points towards AI, means trading penalties and risk of getting DoW.

 

[Airey]

No, just kill 3 units anywhere (capture workers counts as well)...I usually take a few cities too... cripple them so they won't be competitive for the reminder of the game...and start signing RA with them.

Of course when the player is planning to war the AI, the target AI would be the player's biggest threat anyways, so positive relation with them is prob not priority number 1.

I use this when I play domination games...
If you want to fix the relation, with more peaceful games, just gift the AI free lux later when you have duplicates.
Early food (pre 100 turns) is usually stronger than later lux (post 100T).