Semantics Involving Cassiel

thewyrm

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So Cassiel was an Angel. He KNOWS that there are in fact Gods. He even claims to his followers that there is in fact an afterlife waiting for them and a "true God" if you will. How does that in any way make him an Agnostic?

An agnostic is somebody who believes that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists. Cassiel claims to know, so why this choice to call him agnostic?

Just curious.
 
The men of lore may correct me on this one, but I think in Erebus there is a higher god;- Luonotar, who will one day return. The other Gods are mere pretenders, each governs only a single sphere and jealously guard and feud over their relative power, either directly or after the compact was signed, through intermediarys. Always to the general detriment and dismay of the mortal races.

Athiest maybe a better word though considering his rejection of the gods, Infidel would be more descriptive.
 
Atheist means you don't believe in a god. Agnostic means that you dont know if god exists or not but either way you doubt he has any influence in your life (most people claiming to be atheists are actually agnostics).

I like the term agnostic for Cassiel because even though he obviously knows the gods he doubts their supreme authority (they are not gods to him, they are powerful petulant children). That is as far as Cassiel's religion goes or he shares with anyone.

Our perfect knowledge allows us to slip into Cassiels head and determine that he believes in the One who rules heaven, created the "gods" and seperated himself from creation is the only true god. But Cassiel respects the seperation and doesn't ever speak of the One (though he was good enough to provide shelter to a small sect of people that came upon the same idea).

If you view the "gods" as gods then Cassiel is best described as anti-theist. But that term is confusing to casual players and Agnostic did a much better job of getting across the gameplay mechanic that Cassiel can't adopt a state religion.
 
Atheist means you don't believe in a god. Agnostic means that you dont know if god exists or not but either way you doubt he has any influence in your life (most people claiming to be atheists are actually agnostics).

I thought agnosticism meant that you claim it's impossible to know whether or not god exists and thus there's no point in trying to find out.

Technically, the proper term to describe Cassiel would be "Misotheistic," but since nobody knows what that means (I just guessed the word "misantheism" and Google's spell-checker did the rest), "Agnostic" works fine.
 
Agnosticism means you don't know if there is a god, but many take this further into postulating that one cannot know. Some agnostics just haven't been convinced yet, but many don't think that a valid argument can be made. I'm not sure they would all say that there is no point in trying to find out, but most would rather spend there time doing other things. Many agnostics are "weak-atheists," believing that god's existence is extremely unlikely, or even irrelevant. The distinction between agnostics and atheists is that agnostics believe an absolute declaration of the non-existence of god relies on blind faith as much as theism does. They are skeptical of all views on religion, although not necessarily hostile to any.


I really consider Cassiel to be Deistic. Misotheistic implies that he believes his fellow angels are truly gods (albeit bad ones), and I'm not sure he'd be willing to give them that distinction. That of course depends heavily on how one defines "god" of course. Anyway, agnostic is not a valid description of him. Who cares if if no one knows what misotheism or dystheism mean (I did), this game can use such terms anyway and become more educational.

Auric Ulvin of course (who used to have agnostic but now merely has a -100 weighting to all religions--meaning he rushed to found them all but doesn't adopt them) would better be described as Autotheistic.
 
Atheist means you don't believe in a god. Agnostic means that you dont know if god exists or not but either way you doubt he has any influence in your life (most people claiming to be atheists are actually agnostics).

Not so, I'm afraid. The two terms are not exclusive - one can be an agnostic atheist (essentially one who does not believe in a god, and who does not believe we can ever have knowledge of a god or gods), or a deist agnostic (one who believes in the existence of a divine entity or higher power, but that we cannot know of their existence, or even a theist agnostic - plenty of people believe in god and agree that their position is one solely of faith, and that they cannot ever know whether they are right.
If you're not sure, you're either an atheist (one who does not believe in god - not necessarily one who, like myself, rejects the idea of the existence of a god altogether. We're frequently called strong atheists.) or a deist (basically, if you believe there's 'something bigger' but have no name for it, or believe in a specific non-interfering entity or entities. The Founding Fathers were almost all deists, rather than theists.).

See http://www.rationalresponders.com/am_i_agnostic_or_atheist.

Misotheistic is indeed a more accurate term for Cassiel's position - sureity that there are indeed gods, but a rejection and hatred of them - but I don't think it really matters. Plus, that doesn't really cover the Grigori :)
 
I figured it had to do with "agnostic" just being easy to use option to the convey the game mechanic. I was just curious if maybe there was more to it than that.

I've had the Athiest/Agnostic/Deist/Theist debate with my friends for years so I was interested in Kael's reasoning.
 
a deist (basically, if you believe there's 'something bigger' but have no name for it, or believe in a specific non-interfering entity or entities. The Founding Fathers were almost all deists, rather than theists.).
That doesn't follow from their writings, speeches, or behavior, by and large. A God that orders nations, that endows us with rights, etc. is not a non-interfering one. Most of them attended Christian churches regularly; Franklin writes of giving money to a travelling evangelist; further he was the one who suggested that they open the constitutional convention with prayer. A verse from the old testament is on the liberty bell. But the God that they concieved of was one who granted men liberty to believe or not, and to act on that belief, or not. Government has no right to limit that liberty; indeed, has a duty to protect it.

a theist agnostic - plenty of people believe in god and agree that their position is one solely of faith, and that they cannot ever know whether they are right.
I'd wager most religious people would say that they can't know for sure in this life of the existance of God (there is evidence, but not proof). I think the term agnostic carries a little more weight than that, at least in common connotations.
 
Benjamin Franklin is usually considered Deist, although when he was young he wanted to be a minister like Cotton Mather, was close friends with several evangelists and gave them lots of money. He was not convinced that they were right about god, but respected them and believed that acting as if they were right was better for society. As a young adult he had fallen away from Christianity and became practically an atheist for a while, but as he aged he came closer and closer to theism.

Thomas Jefferson was often considered a Deist, but from what I've heard he was really more of a Unitarian. He called himself a Christian on several occasions, but did not believe that Jesus was divine. He actually had his own version of the Bible published, removing most of the miracles and claims of Christ's divinity. When he was elected president many people feared that he was an atheist, and many even buried their bibles in fear that he would ban them.

Apart from these two though, essentially all of them were were strongly Christian (of various denominations, a majority were Anglican but there were Congregationalists, Presbyterians, Methodists, and a Quaker among them too). Almost all of them considered the term Deist to he highly offensive, but believed that he was the author of liberty, and that the state had a responsibility to protect, not infringe upon, that liberty (as Nikis-Knight said)


The definition of "Proof" is a problem here. Originally the word only meant defense (c.f., Fireproof, waterproof), not an "absolute proof." One can come up with several possible defenses of god's existence, but it is impossible to fully "prove" anything. All proofs must rely on assumptions. Descartes famously claimed that no one can logically prove god exists because without the a priori assumption that he exists and created us with the capacity of reason, the validity of logic itself cannot be established.
 
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