settler factories

[lordmacroer]

this probably belongs in the strategy section but it doesnt look like too many people look there anymore...

i have a bunch of questions regarding where and when to build settlers/workers

-if you designate a city to be a settler factory but it has no significant food bonuses, should you let it grow to a certain level (beyond 3) before you start making settlers, or is it ok to let its population just drop to one or two over and over again?
-should all cities be producing settlers/wokers in order to expand the fastest or should you let the population of some cities stay high so they can produce extra units an/or commernce?
-in a multiplayer game, is it still wise to make your first city a settler factory? or should you wait until you have a couple of cities and a defence before designating any cities purley for creating settlers?
-what cities should be building workers? should you aim for 1.5 workers per city right away or does that rule apply only once your have a bunch of cities down first?


i read the "babylon settlers" artical on the war academy but it only covers one specific single player scenario. Ive also read cracker's opening play aritcal that was linked to on the war academy, which was helpful but mostly covers worker action optimization which is not what i am concerned about right now.

 

[lordmacroer]

you dont have to answer everything at once, even if you can only help me out with one or two of the bullets that would be nice

 

[Cyc]

There are people who play this game to be number-crunchers, and those who just play to have fun. What kind of game do you want? You can squeeze every last drop of efficiency out of your game or you can just enjoy your strategies and watch them develop (if they do). What are you looking for?

 

[MPK]

Me...if I want a Settler Factory I look for a City with an extra high surplus intake of food. Build a Granary in it, and your off. ,,,, later on you will have cities that are up to date with all the building requirements... Settler Factory these.

=A different way to gain settlers:
You could build a Priest unit that enslaves. (or similar, there are many Priest/Monk units available.).. with producing a settler through "religious conversion" when winning a battle. Then go hunting those Barbarian Units.

 

[Puppeteer]

I think MPK is talking about a Civ other than III.

When you say "settler factory" I presume you mean a specialized granary/food-bonus city as in this article.

I know pretty much nothing about multiplayer, so you might need to ignore everything I say if you only play multiplayer.

Come to think of it, ignore everything I say, anyway. I'm far from the best player. But I'm a good typist and proficient babbler.

In the early game I try to get settlers as quickly as possible. Ignoring movement costs and food bonuses (and hut-popped settlers and cities), I want a settler at turn 20, two more settlers at turn 40, and ideally four more at turn 60. Of course walking the settlers to their places and food bonuses affect the timing, and terrain, barbs and opponent placement may dictate building military sooner. But the earlier I get those cities started, the more effective they are the entire game, and the faster my population and production capability grows.

During this rapid expansion phase you only need two workable tiles per city, and I'm starting to wonder if my starting worker would be better off roading ahead of the settlers instead of mining tiles if I have enough shields to build a settler before as I hit pop 3.

Food bonuses can help you grow every 7 or 5 turns, and with a granary every 3 or 2 turns. If you can build a granary quickly enough (chopping forests helps a lot, especially in Conquests where chopping is faster) and improve the surrounding tiles enough to get a 6-turn or 4-turn settler factory going then definitely grow until you have the size right to work the settler pump.

But for non-pump cities in the early game, I see no reason to build up population before making a settler.

I haven't quite figured out an optimal time to get the granary and pump going, but I think you generally want at least two cities before setting one up as a pump.

If I have a food-bonus-rich start I may start sneaking in worker builds early, but currently I find myself expanding as quickly as possible and then popping workers out of the corrupt cities that can't collect enough shields for a settler by pop 3 until I have a food-rich city designated for settlers and/or workers.

You almost cannot have too many workers. I sometimes I think I have too many, then I get out of despotism and don't have all my needed hills improved yet, or I get into a war and have them spread out too thin in the conquered lands.

In the start of the game expansion is more important than improvement, however workers can speed expansion with roads and some city sites will need some irrigation to have enough food to remain 2fpt at size 1 and 2, and some cities will need mines to collect enough shields to build a settler in 20 turns. And the military needs to come from somewhere, although usually the inner cities can pop out enough warriors for MP duty while still finishing settlers as soon as they hit size 3. Like I say my early workers often come from outer cities that can't get 2spt at size 2 and therefore can't build a settler by size 3, so they might as well build a worker instead of grow and be unhappy. But if I have a food bonus city or am agricultural and have one or more cities on fresh water I'll find ways to get workers from there without slowing down settling too much.

I guess in summary, in the early game aim to pop out a settler as soon as possible from each city while eyeing the defense situation. After that try to leverage core city food bonuses with a granary and ideally push settlers and workers out of those kinds of cities. In Despotism it's hard to get a 6-turn or especially 4-turn factory going outside the first ring of cities, but keep an eye out for post-Despotism settler/worker pump cities, too.

Edit: If you have "no significant food bonuses" I would aim for settler-by-size-3 until you have a food bonus city, have run out of room or have to start building up military. 3fpt or 4fpt can be leveraged, but at 2fpt I think the better bet is getting that settler out and planted somewhere else, because in essence each city is free 2fpt.

 

[MPK]

I think MPK is talking about a Civ other than III.

I only play civ3= Just make one up in the editor. Any unit could be used. First time I did this I just converted my King unit for this purpose. But it looked a bit silly him just waving his hand about. Looked more like he was doing a Jedi mind trick.

 

[lordmacroer]

thanks puppet, your insight was very helpfull it covered pretty much everything i asked about.

does anybody designate cities as like non-settler cities where they try to get the population up as much as possible in order to produce maxium shields and commernce?

 

[Puppeteer]

You're welcome.

does anybody designate cities as like non-settler cities where they try to get the population up as much as possible in order to produce maxium shields and commernce?

Sure. With waste/corruption, the core cities will be the most productive, gain the most commerce and consequently be easier to keep happy with the luxury slider when they grow, so the capital or first-ring city on fresh water (so they can grow past size 6 without an aqueduct) with average 2fpt tiles and some shields are early targets for shield production. A similar city with river tiles, commerce bonuses or a coastal city with coast tiles is a good target for early income, but really any high-pop core city with roaded tiles are going to be in your top-5 income earning cities.

But these are the earliest-settled cities, and aside from any settler/worker pump cities they are the first to quit making settlers and start on barracks and military and thus grow bigger organically as the outer cities are still slow-building settlers or workers. So I don't generally build a granary in one unless I'm really food poor and need a fresh water city to go big more quickly. After they hit size 7, if I have a good worker pump or two I may join workers to increase their size if I have improved tiles ready to work and can keep the extra population happy.

If your cities are close enough and you micromanage you can take double-advantage of a food bonus and build two or sometimes even three cities more quickly, but it's a lot of work to avoid wasting 1 or 2 wasted food each growth cycle.

Also, when growing shield-producing cities notice how much build waste you have. 4spt and 5spt have no waste for archers and spears, but 6spt wastes 4 shields building the same. So if you're not building swords or horsemen yet, don't put too much effort into 6spt unless you can quickly get to 7spt. But don't intentionally slow growth, either, unless one city is getting too big to keep happy reasonably or there is an urgent need for military. (I periodically end up with 0fpt and 10spt in early wars in one or two cities because 9spt really sucks for AA military builds.)

 

[Fiddlin Nero]

does anybody designate cities as like non-settler cities where they try to get the population up as much as possible in order to produce maxium shields and commernce?

I don't care for the pollution of cities over 12 so I keep my hospital building to my capital and forbidden palace city, and if I have the opportunity to build the IronWorks in a core city. I cap the population at 20 for these to maximize production.

There's no right answer to most of your questions. I liked someone's comment about playing a cold calculated game versus playing for the fun of it. I would go a step further and say there is a play style where you develop a timing that puts you in a groove for reaching your goal. Not a single rigid perfect way to play, which doesn't exist, but a flexible style that can maximize enjoyment, at least for me anyway.

 

[lordmacroer]

the adivce i have been given so far is helpfull. If you just want to have fun and play SimCivilization then yea who gives a play on regent and start off the game by building a wonder if you want to. But if you want to have fun at the higher difficulties and in multiplayer, which ususally means winning, then you do have to have to know what the plan is going into the game. Then you can look at the situation and make adjustments, rather than playing one turn at a time.

 

[Cyc]

There you, that's it. Each situation is different. Sure, your starting location will vary slightly each time. Does the capital have cattle, does it have a lux? Are these items close by and is fresh water available? Did you start on the Plains, are there flood plains close? Should you build a Granary first? There are a lot of questions for each start. And those questions can change depending on which level you play?

Without a second thought, I will make the town with the Cattle my Settler Factory. But I will normally build Settlers in my capital (especially if I've built a Granary first) until at least my core is complete. I don't build any military units (other than scouts) until I see a Barb. I just expand until I need to change something or somehow. For me, the most critical part of the game is how quickly you can get your second, third and fourth cities planted. My Worker is building roads to where those cities will be located. And one of those cities will be a Settler Factory/Worker pump. If I'm lucky, maybe I'll get a secondary Settler Factory in those first cities. By that time, maybe I'll have CB and can build a Temple in my capital. But that's only if I feel I have the time and the need. But my main goal is too expand as quickly as possible.

Some people tell you a Settler Factory needs to be size 4 or 5 to be optimal. That's fine for them. I don't agree. The sooner the Settlers pop out, the happier I am. The people who want size 4 or 5 SFs are probably building military units. That's the way they play. Develop your own style. Find your groove as Fiddlin Nero said.

If you do let a city grow to size 12 ( or as high as it will grow) for Commerce/Science, make it your capital to secure all the gold. Make sure you have a road in every tile worked by a citizen. And keep its citizens happy. You do this to get a tech lead, if that's possible. By this time, it's OK to build Warriors in your capital for Military Police work.

 

[AnorakTel]

I only play single player. One thing I've carried over from Civs I and II is the investment concept. If I play for an hour or more then I've invested sufficient time that I want to win at all costs. But for the first hour I don't care. If I lose then I haven't wasted any effort.

Consequently at the start, I play to expand. One warrior to waste enough time to get big enough to start a settler. The warrior is searching for a place to found city two so the new settler goes straight there. Thereafter I'm trying to get as many settlers up and running as quickly as possible. Often it is necessary build a phalanx to give the city time to recover from the settler. Sometimes you have to build something (temple may be) just to avoid boiling off the population. Nevertheless expansion and settler production is everything.

Then comes a time when I've invested too much time to want to risk losing. By this time I should be the largest civ and although impoverished, I should be the most advanced. At that point defence and consolidation start to become important.

(Please note I'm total pants at the game but enjoy winning )

 

[splunge the 2nd]

A narrow answer;
If you have an uncorrupt city with lots of gold producing tiels, a settler factory that ocillates from population 5-7 for example will produce the settlers you want for expansion and produce gold for research. Letting it run popuation 1-3 gets settlers earlier but you lose potential income.

 

[lordmacroer]

A narrow answer;
If you have an uncorrupt city with lots of gold producing tiels, a settler factory that ocillates from population 5-7 for example will produce the settlers you want for expansion and produce gold for research. Letting it run popuation 1-3 gets settlers earlier but you lose potential income.

makes sense

 

[bigFRANK]

my none scientific thoughts would say start to build settlers when pop=3.

 

[Lanzelot]

Letting it run popuation 1-3 gets settlers earlier

Not necessarily. At size 1-3 the town usually has only 2-3 shields per turn. So building the settler takes 10-15 turns. At size 5-7 the town usually has enough shields to build the settler in 4-5 turns. And also a size 5 town can grow faster than a size 1 town, so the necessary two pop points will also be produced faster in a bigger town.

Perhaps the very first settler will be earlier, when building it at size 1-3, but I would say starting with the second or third settler, the 5-7 approach has caught up and all following settlers will appear earlier.

Of course it also depends on circumstances. E.g. on a small Sid, where you will run out of space after 3-4 towns, it does not make sense to wait until the settler-producing town has reached the optimal size, if by that time no more spots for new towns are left... Then you need to spit out that settler at size 3, even if this is "bad" from a game-mechanical point of view, because it's your only chance to get another town before you are hemmed in...

 

[splunge the 2nd]

regarding "should all cities produce settlers?":
I let terraine determine mainly. If I have a food poor but shield rich city nestled in hills, I'll let it build my military while a flood plain town with a forest or 2 can pop out settlers. Admittedly, this is after an initial push to expand.
At lower levels (I play at emporer, and only rearely higher) and with a little luck, I'll expand by conquest, not just by settling.