SGFN-07: The stars my destination

[TheOverseer714]

As an experienced high level player, you are a welcome addition to our lurker pool, Buce. I have tried one of the maybe starts I rolled and am doing decently, it might become my first solo DG victory. I have to stop and get back to rolling starts, I just wish I remembered everything I did to get Mapmaker rolling.

 

[Bucephalus]

lurker's comment:

The slingshot is quite doable on DG, even when starting without Alphabet, particularly if you are playing a continents map with it's slower tech pace. A high commerce start (plenty of rivers) would probably be a prerequisite, though.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I think I can get Mapfinder going, anyone that uses it have a good ruleset around that I can use? My current ruleset hasn't generated any saves....maybe I'm too picky?

 

[ThinkTank]

lurker's comment:
The slingshot is quite doable on DG, even when starting without Alphabet, particularly if you are playing a continents map with it's slower tech pace. A high commerce start (plenty of rivers) would probably be a prerequisite, though.

It's very well possible to get the slingshot on DG.

I played a game as the Celts and started with tribes not having Alphabet at the beginning and got the slingshot to Republic eventually...

I just ran a test game with the settings of this SG and failed to get philosophy first. I'll guess I'll run some more then.

 

[jeffred1111]

I hadn't thought about the Rep slingshot either. Korea then ? If we go for a military induced GA, it would be around the same time frame as the Sipahi or even later if we choose to since we can somewhat overlook canons and have trebs stick around longer if need be. But does the Hwach'a (sp?) need to kill a unit to trigger the GA or simply register a hit ? This can get tricky/messy fast WW wise if the RNG goes loopy on us and the AI has few units out of his cities when we're ready to go for it.

Anyway, I don't see us fighting all that much barring some skirmishes to get luxes/space semi-early on if we're cramped, so a weak UU and the need for wonder building to trigger our GA > no Alphabet, at least for me, especially on a great map where we'll be able to devote some production to wonders. Continents also usually mean a bit less cascade, altough I've yet to play DG so my opinion might very well be worthless.

Greece is another no-brainer, but Hoplites are dangerous: we'll need to have border towns not defended by them, especially if the AI seems to want to get frisky very early, or even in the MA if we want our GA to be later.

I'd be happy to play as either Greece, Korea or Otto (or any other scientific civs really) though, since the fate of the slingshot will probably be decided long before I get the game

PS: One other quirky way to go would be the Byz. Seafaring is quite powerful moneywise if you can get great coastal starts, but we'd need a lot more water than this and launch would thus be quite later plus it screws with city placements somewhat. Military triggered GA would NOT be in a good spot either. Ill let you guys choose and roll with the punches since I don't have all that much experience with space launches. I usually want to slow tech pace to avoid my MI become obsolete, not feed it to get to the Modern Age as fast as possible.

 

[Elear]

The slingshot is very quirky. In the game Spoonwood and I are currently doing, we managed to comfortably get it on Deity, even before some civs had Writing. The tendency to be drawn towards Mathematics, Map Making, or Polytheism/Monarchy is very great.

It is, of course, more difficult with an increased number of civilizations (7 here, instead of 4 in the game I outlined). Still, since it's Demigod and not Deity, it should be possible.

As for civilization, I don't care at all. I prefer to be scientific or commercial, with as many scientific opponents as possible. That's all. If we are hellbent on the Republic slingshot, perhaps non-Alphabet starting civs are more important than scientific.

 

[Optional]

Lurker's comment: In my opinion the Republic slingshot is overrated. On average it's not that beneficial to be a Republic that early. But it's difficult to get it anyway when some of your opponants start with alphabet and you don't have fast growth opportunities yourself.
I would go for the Philosophy slingshot. Regularly I managed the Republic slingshot by going for Philosophy first, and then discovering that a couple of civs already were up Code of Laws, and an easy trade was possible. But I believe this was always with civs that started with alphabet (and yeah, I'm purely talking about Demigod here).
The Ottomans are scientific, so the first techs in the medieval age should come easy. You can always keep the possibility open to trade for Republic that way.
So what I'm saying is: don't be that hung up on the Republic slingshot; in an 'ideal' game (think HoF), you'll really want it, but in an average game it's really not such a crucial thing.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I'm 50/50 on the sling so far in test games. I think it is worth shooting for, and if you miss, CoL and Philo are very useful trade-bait. If we have some hot real estate, it will probably be ours with max runs/fast REX and lucky placement. When I added Russia and dropped Greece, we end up on the small continent shared with Russia and Babylon. The other continent gets a wrestling match between France, the Maya and Sumeria for dominance with Persia and the Aztecs being very quiet. Once I get everything ready, I will post 4 starting spots and we can choose our start.

 

[krakedhalo]

I know you got a lot of sign ups very fast, but as I mentioned in the other thread I'd like to join in. I haven't played a DG game, but win Emporer regularly and I have won 1 Deity game (of maybe 4 attempts). Have room?

 

[Spoonwood]

In my proud opinion, once the AIs can do serious research, The Republic slingshot only becomes helpful when you either will irrigate a lot early (like a histographic game), or have a slew of hills you want to work (like a 20k game). For a game like this, that pretty much means it doesn't matter too much, I think. I don't know how many Deity games with Sumeria I've played where I didn't get the slingshot, and still ended up fine since the AIs pushed the tech pace until the end of the middle ages and keeping up came as more of the problem than anything else. You can always go Philosophy-Code of Laws freebie, then research The Republic. Tone said he would do that a lot in his Sumeria upper level SS games.

The Ottomans make an excellent choice. Archphoenix had a superb SS game with them. Faster workers for earlier commerce and production, and Siphai for a fairly easy industrial or modern golden age... whichever you want.

Strategy-wise... do you guys plan on an ancient swords/horseman/archer rush? Warring with knights? Or play more builder and then kill with Sipahi? Do you guys want Sanitation and then to water your core for more science specialists? Things to think about.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I think in the Middle Ages you can buy techs and trade them around by generating cash, but by the Modern Age they cost too much to buy, you either steal them or research them yourself. In a previous outing, at Emperor, Fission cost around 10,000 gold and a ton of gpt. A safe steal is about 1/3 of that, so there may be some stealing involved. I feel that there will be some warring in each era, some for space to grow, some for resources, and some for War Happiness, and some for fending off attackers. War is generally bad for research if it involves grudge matches, so we need to fight short, focused wars. Anyway, I have posted some nice looking starts on page 1, so please take a look.

Edit: Sure, Krakedhalo, there will be many many turns to play, a big roster to start out will help keep things rolling with liberal skipping and swaps. Welcome aboard!

 

[Spoonwood]

Artillery proper may work as the best way to minimize war weariness problems. Sipahi should help here also.

 

[Elear]

Of the four starts you posted:

I'm against A due to the amount of plains.

I like the other three just fine.

The only issue I have with B is that wheat and game is slightly less straightforward to manage than cattle, at least for me. Cattle are basically perfect.

edit: I just noticed that you live in Ohio, Overseer. I was actually just over there on business. The weather was pretty nice, except for the first night (18 degrees with snow).

 

[Elephantium]

I'll play or lurk, whichever seems more appropriate. I like playing with you though; I'll never forget the old Rat EmpAW game we did, as well as that horrific Deity game.

edit: And if we found Elephantium maybe it would be some sort of old-time group revival

Did someone just take my name in vain?

 

[Bucephalus]

lurker's comment:

Lurker's comment: In my opinion the Republic slingshot is overrated. On average it's not that beneficial to be a Republic that early.

Well, it's not just about being a Republic earlier, Optional; apart from the turns saved by not having to research it, having it gives you the edge when trading for the 'Change of Age' techs.

But does the Hwach'a (sp?) need to kill a unit to trigger the GA or simply register a hit ?.

It needs to kill a unit.

 

[Optional]

Well, it's not just about being a Republic earlier, Optional; apart from the turns saved by not having to research it, having it gives you the edge when trading for the 'Change of Age' techs

Lurker's comment: True, it's not just about being a Republic, although I have to say in my games I believe I rarely manage to hang on to a monopoly AA tech until the change of age trading. I'll rebuff the first demand for it, but I'm usually still weak at that stage of the game, so I find it wise then to throw my monopoly in the air and grab an alliance and hopefully one or two remaining AA techs, rather than waiting for more demands, as a multiple war against me I wouldn't be able to handle yet, and also it would also make Republic less useful, both as government and trade material.

 

[ThinkTank]

I like start 1. I agree with Elear that the amount of plains is less than nice. But we have 2 cows, sufficient for a settler factory, and looking at the minimap, there's likely noone to the N of us, which looks like good solid grass land. Uncontested space for expanding is vital on this level I think.

2 gives us a settler factory too. 3 does not, as we're not agri, and I dont think 3 visible BGs compensate for this. 4 requires us to move the settler for getting a settler factory.

My preference is 1-2-4-3, and really think 3 is out for not enabling a settler factory.

 

[Elear]

You make a great point about not being agricultural. For some reason, I thought the Ottomans were.

2-1-4-3 is my new order.

 

[Racinante]

One of the things I will need to learn is to manage a settler/worker factory as I tend to build settlers out of pop 2 or 3 towns, but it seems to me that A is faster as irrigation takes less time than mining, while B has more shield production until we start chopping forests, and requires more micro management. Either way, I agree that A and B are the best options of the four and am happy with either.

Hopefully the Mayans are right next door for an early conquest or far enough away that their culture mongering won't be too much of a hindrance.

I will be available to take my turns on Tuesday and Thursday nights, or Saturday or Sundays. With 8 players (so far) are we doing 20, 15 or 10 round turns for the first round? Are we planning on focusing on the Republic slingshot, or using some other starting strategy?

 

[TheOverseer714]

I'll do 20 to start, then the next 3 or 4 players can do 10 or 20 depending on their time available. From there, it'll be 10 turns through to the IA. In the IA we may drop to 5 turns, depending on how busy things are. The Republic Slingshot is how we'll start, I'm a proponent of max science runs but we can decide as a team. We won't trade Alphabet until Writing is researched, and Writing won't be traded until the slingshot succeeds or fails. I'm thinking we probably will research CoL, but that will be a on-the-fly decision. If Writing is widespread when we get it, we'll go Philosophy and hope to get CoL in trade. I'm hoping we get some towns out fast and get growth revved up. In my test game, I had 2 settler factories, so this game might not match that for growth, but a properly managed settler factory should still get us out of the gate fast. I like start A best, but B looks pretty good too.

To Elear: Ohio has 3 seasons: Winter, summer and construction. Our saying is, "If you don't like the weather, wait 5 minutes" Fortunately, I live south of the snow belt. Anyway, born and raised here, probably will always live here. Ohio has its charms, and we like that part and deal with the less charming aspects. Overall, life is pretty safe, a blizzard every 30 years and occasional tornados aside. Glad you liked it.