Got the save. I'll probably play tonight, in about 8/9 hours, so if people could comment on the plan it'd be good. The major decision for my turnset is going to be the city location - as I said, (#115) I don't like the 'new blue' suggestion because it has 2 overlap, 3 tundra, and 6 non-improvable ocean squares. The old suggestion, with 4 plains hills, horses, and a good few floodplains, makes for a production powerhouse. At size 7, we can work 2 farmed floodplains and 4 mines. If people would keep posting their thoughts it would help me out - so far its just me saying one thing and gskur saying another, and as he said it should be a team decision.
SGOTM 01 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Perugia
Prince
BrianS #120
Thanks for the well presented write up, shame not much happened. Did you save the upload log?
Does anyone agree that St Petersburg will have to be razed as those hills should be mined and it can't work the southern horses. Not withstanding that St Petersburg stops the canal city being built if we need it.
AFAIR we will get the carryover production as essentially excess food becomes hammers when you are building a settler or worker. We can always convert one food back to a commerce later by working the lake.
Second City Location
I am still of the opinion that we need those horses as soon as possible and cannot afford the delay caused by waiting for the border expansion. I also prefer fewer, better cities over optimal city placement to make it easier to manage maintenance costs and I still want the second city to be a production power house.
I'm not worried too much about overlap as we are not going to get near maxing out in this game.
Catherine has already built a second city and will continue growing stronger all the while we delay.
If the team think there is merit in squeezing 2 cities in the space can we compromise and settle next to the horses leaving the western fish out of the city radius.
Thanks for the well presented write up, shame not much happened. Did you save the upload log?
Does anyone agree that St Petersburg will have to be razed as those hills should be mined and it can't work the southern horses. Not withstanding that St Petersburg stops the canal city being built if we need it.
AFAIR we will get the carryover production as essentially excess food becomes hammers when you are building a settler or worker. We can always convert one food back to a commerce later by working the lake.
Second City Location
I am still of the opinion that we need those horses as soon as possible and cannot afford the delay caused by waiting for the border expansion. I also prefer fewer, better cities over optimal city placement to make it easier to manage maintenance costs and I still want the second city to be a production power house.
I'm not worried too much about overlap as we are not going to get near maxing out in this game.
Catherine has already built a second city and will continue growing stronger all the while we delay.
If the team think there is merit in squeezing 2 cities in the space can we compromise and settle next to the horses leaving the western fish out of the city radius.
@Dolphan #121
It's 3 tundra (4H2F with lumbermill, 6H2F with railroad) vs. 2 tundra (3H1F-with a mine, 4H1F with railroad) and 1 desert (000)--tundra wins hands down.
And with the new blue we get fish, for what it's worth.
So you do not like the water tiles? I do not like them either.
==============================
I agree with Perugia: StPete should be razed.
Carryovers are always used on the next buld, whatever it is.
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@BrianS # 120
Re: Turn 10 comments
When you stop working a floodplain by a citizen, you lose 3F (production) and 1C. Settler’s production rate drops from 5F5H to 2F6H (1H comes from the idle citizen) and time from 7 turns to 9 turns. Put this citizen on the rice square and you production rate becomes 6F5H and time from 9 turns to 7 turns. So the settler will not come out earlier, true, but you will have larger excess production applied to the worker. And even if that will not gain a turn, then the next build (maybe a chariot) will benefit from the excess we will have accumulated that far. We will benefit from this without fail.
The issue here is that if we continue working flood, not rice, we will keep making 1C every turn we work it, which goes to research. This is the crux of the dilemma we face: +1 production or +1 research.
It's 3 tundra (4H2F with lumbermill, 6H2F with railroad) vs. 2 tundra (3H1F-with a mine, 4H1F with railroad) and 1 desert (000)--tundra wins hands down.
And with the new blue we get fish, for what it's worth.So you do not like the water tiles? I do not like them either.
==============================
I agree with Perugia: StPete should be razed.
Carryovers are always used on the next buld, whatever it is.
================================
@BrianS # 120
Re: Turn 10 comments
When you stop working a floodplain by a citizen, you lose 3F (production) and 1C. Settler’s production rate drops from 5F5H to 2F6H (1H comes from the idle citizen) and time from 7 turns to 9 turns. Put this citizen on the rice square and you production rate becomes 6F5H and time from 9 turns to 7 turns. So the settler will not come out earlier, true, but you will have larger excess production applied to the worker. And even if that will not gain a turn, then the next build (maybe a chariot) will benefit from the excess we will have accumulated that far. We will benefit from this without fail.
The issue here is that if we continue working flood, not rice, we will keep making 1C every turn we work it, which goes to research. This is the crux of the dilemma we face: +1 production or +1 research.
@Gskur #124
We know the Incas because we were set to by the GOTM team. It doesn't mean anything about their location. We're locked in war with them because of the game setup. We knew this already.
We aren't locked at peace with Catherine - someone checked earlier. She has no opinion because nothings happened between us. Locked in peace Civs still have relations modifiers and everything, you just can't declare war on them.
We know the Incas because we were set to by the GOTM team. It doesn't mean anything about their location. We're locked in war with them because of the game setup. We knew this already.
We aren't locked at peace with Catherine - someone checked earlier. She has no opinion because nothings happened between us. Locked in peace Civs still have relations modifiers and everything, you just can't declare war on them.
Doom Train
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2002
- Messages
- 204
@gskur: #102
I read all posts before playing including your suggestions. I didn t wanted to waste extra turn so i builded the mine o grassland hill . I thought that perugia said mine the hill closest to Moscow at least thats what left in my mind when i was playing.
And about 2nd city location i prefer blue area but city must be directly on horses. We don't need to build pasture if do that right?
I read all posts before playing including your suggestions. I didn t wanted to waste extra turn so i builded the mine o grassland hill . I thought that perugia said mine the hill closest to Moscow at least thats what left in my mind when i was playing.
And about 2nd city location i prefer blue area but city must be directly on horses. We don't need to build pasture if do that right?
@BrianS: is it 1S or 1SE?
=========================
@Doom Train: You are absolutely correct, yes! We'd lose the production from the tile, and it is not as good a location as 1S1E, but we would have the horses right away. A brilliant thought, if we indeed want the horses ASAP, above all.
As for the mine--we will still finish building it where you started, just a bit later, is all. Thank you for responding.
=========================
@Doom Train: You are absolutely correct, yes! We'd lose the production from the tile, and it is not as good a location as 1S1E, but we would have the horses right away. A brilliant thought, if we indeed want the horses ASAP, above all.
As for the mine--we will still finish building it where you started, just a bit later, is all. Thank you for responding.
Goodenuf
Warlord
I'm all for razing St. Petes as well when the time comes; we can come up with a better location, and also we don't need to leave a chariot or 2 behind to defend it while we're taking out Moscow.
Originally, I would place city #2 by the water (blue location), but that's the builder in me. Given what we need to do here, we can't afford to wait on the horses. So 1SE of horses would be my choice, and get those horsies hooked up ASAP.
One last thing... It would be interesting/helpful to know where everyone is located (time-zone wise)? It seems that during the day here, there's not too much activity on the forum, but when I check first thing in the morning there's a ton of messages. I'm on Canada's west coast (Pacific time, GMT -8). I'm guessing that most of you are GMT time zone (or within an hour or two of it), or on NA east coast someplace (or you're all my neighbours playing at 2am). Knowing this would give an indication as to when responses to queries etc. would be expected from others.
Originally, I would place city #2 by the water (blue location), but that's the builder in me. Given what we need to do here, we can't afford to wait on the horses. So 1SE of horses would be my choice, and get those horsies hooked up ASAP.
One last thing... It would be interesting/helpful to know where everyone is located (time-zone wise)? It seems that during the day here, there's not too much activity on the forum, but when I check first thing in the morning there's a ton of messages. I'm on Canada's west coast (Pacific time, GMT -8). I'm guessing that most of you are GMT time zone (or within an hour or two of it), or on NA east coast someplace (or you're all my neighbours playing at 2am). Knowing this would give an indication as to when responses to queries etc. would be expected from others.
I'm afraid I played my turns before the last two posts. As Perugia, Doom_Train and I all expressed support for the location 1SE of horses, I founded there.
Turn 1 (2530): The people of Thebes begin the anicent work of rice farming, believing that extra food will aid the building of their empire. Their workers are sent towards the Western mountain to construct a quarry. The warrior Tefnut is sent to spy on the Russian city of St. Petersburg from high in the mountains.
Turn 3 (2470): Work on the great quarry is begun, and shall last for 9 turns. Catherine declared the most powerful of all leaders, with Huayna Capac close behind. Hatsheput comes last.
Turn 4 (2440): Rumours of the founding of a heretical new religion, known as 'Hinduism', reach the ears of the Priests of Ra.
Turn 7 (2350): A pioneering group of settlers leave Thebes and head NE. The people of Thebes begin to train a new worker.
Turn 8 (2320): A barbarian warrior appears out of the fog to the West. Tefnut is sent 1N to intercept him. The barb attacks first and is destroyed. Tefnut has a promotion, I've left it to the next player to decide. She's healing just now.
Turn 9 (2290): The fledgling city of Memphis is founded, on the original blue site. Rivers miraculously allow an instantaneous trade link with Thebes (not sure exactly how, but its nice anyway). Science down to 90 to get rid of the -1 gold, gets us +2.
Turn 10 (2260): The people of Memphis are happily building a warrior for a garrison. I've left the turn unfinished so decisions can be made on Memphis BO and which squares to work.
EDIT - apparently we're only one point behind HC now.
Gskur, you're up.
Turn 1 (2530): The people of Thebes begin the anicent work of rice farming, believing that extra food will aid the building of their empire. Their workers are sent towards the Western mountain to construct a quarry. The warrior Tefnut is sent to spy on the Russian city of St. Petersburg from high in the mountains.
Turn 3 (2470): Work on the great quarry is begun, and shall last for 9 turns. Catherine declared the most powerful of all leaders, with Huayna Capac close behind. Hatsheput comes last.
Turn 4 (2440): Rumours of the founding of a heretical new religion, known as 'Hinduism', reach the ears of the Priests of Ra.
Turn 7 (2350): A pioneering group of settlers leave Thebes and head NE. The people of Thebes begin to train a new worker.
Turn 8 (2320): A barbarian warrior appears out of the fog to the West. Tefnut is sent 1N to intercept him. The barb attacks first and is destroyed. Tefnut has a promotion, I've left it to the next player to decide. She's healing just now.
Turn 9 (2290): The fledgling city of Memphis is founded, on the original blue site. Rivers miraculously allow an instantaneous trade link with Thebes (not sure exactly how, but its nice anyway). Science down to 90 to get rid of the -1 gold, gets us +2.
Turn 10 (2260): The people of Memphis are happily building a warrior for a garrison. I've left the turn unfinished so decisions can be made on Memphis BO and which squares to work.
EDIT - apparently we're only one point behind HC now.
Gskur, you're up.
Doom Train
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2002
- Messages
- 204
I am in Cyprus GMT +02:00(Athens, Beirut, Istanbul, Minsk).
Nice report Dolphan. Now we have to concentrate on getting those horses and unleashing the power of War Chariots.
Nice report Dolphan. Now we have to concentrate on getting those horses and unleashing the power of War Chariots.
@Goodenuf #130
I am in Chicago, GMT-06.
============================
@Fifth Element Team
Got the saved game (Fifth_Element_SG001_BC2260_01.Civ4SavedGame), opened it without any problems, and closed right away. I will start playing my 10 game turns about 10 hours from now, which will be 9 p.m. GMT-06. Post all your comments by that time, please! I will play 10 turns straight unless there is a problem or a critical decision is to be made. I will stop playing in this case, post the issue(s), and give up to 24 hours for your comments and suggestions.
I am in Chicago, GMT-06.
============================
@Fifth Element Team
Got the saved game (Fifth_Element_SG001_BC2260_01.Civ4SavedGame), opened it without any problems, and closed right away. I will start playing my 10 game turns about 10 hours from now, which will be 9 p.m. GMT-06. Post all your comments by that time, please! I will play 10 turns straight unless there is a problem or a critical decision is to be made. I will stop playing in this case, post the issue(s), and give up to 24 hours for your comments and suggestions.
Thebes, pop 3
Growth: 11 turns (6 turns after the Worker is built) – the next watch
Working: rice, cows, floodplain; manually add quarry at the next increase in population (in 11 turns) – the next watch
Building: Worker in 5 turns; Barracks in 17; after that we will Alt-Chariot
Leonardo can be done with the quarry in 2. I will interrupt this and move him to building pasture on horses and the road there (horses will not connect automatically because they are not on a river bank--no fresh water, no commerce). The reason we can do this (interrupting quarry construction) is that we will work the quarry only when Thebes grows to size 4, in 11 turns; if we switch immediately, the growth of the capital will be very-very slow—we work rice until size 5!
The second worker will continue development of the capital: finish the quarry and mine the two hills 1S and 2S of the capital for increased military production capacity to be at its max at population 5, which is our growth limit so far.
Memphis, pop 1
Growth: 10 turns
Working: floodplain, add horses in ten (even without the pasture completed?), then add cows, then add a mine – the next watch and up.
Building: presently a Warrior, just 1 hammer invested. I would drop this and start on barracks. As soon as the horses are connected, we should build pasture on cows. The city will grow quickly from there. The barrack are 90H. Between horses and cows and the center we will have 7H, so barracks will come along fast and we can start Alt-Chariot here as well. After horses and cows, Leonardo should mine one of the plain hills, say the 1N from Memphis, to boost military production.
I will move Tefnut 1N to get rid of the dark spot 2N1W of her—the last thing we want now to interfere with our plans are barb archers.
Shu might be doing some light travel for the same reason (dark tiles west of him and on Silver in the north). Memphis will expand in 8 turns, at which point only the silver tile in the north will be dark, so Shu will go in that direction eventually.
That’s the plan from here on. Comments, suggestions, criticism?
Growth: 11 turns (6 turns after the Worker is built) – the next watch
Working: rice, cows, floodplain; manually add quarry at the next increase in population (in 11 turns) – the next watch
Building: Worker in 5 turns; Barracks in 17; after that we will Alt-Chariot
Leonardo can be done with the quarry in 2. I will interrupt this and move him to building pasture on horses and the road there (horses will not connect automatically because they are not on a river bank--no fresh water, no commerce). The reason we can do this (interrupting quarry construction) is that we will work the quarry only when Thebes grows to size 4, in 11 turns; if we switch immediately, the growth of the capital will be very-very slow—we work rice until size 5!
The second worker will continue development of the capital: finish the quarry and mine the two hills 1S and 2S of the capital for increased military production capacity to be at its max at population 5, which is our growth limit so far.
Memphis, pop 1
Growth: 10 turns
Working: floodplain, add horses in ten (even without the pasture completed?), then add cows, then add a mine – the next watch and up.
Building: presently a Warrior, just 1 hammer invested. I would drop this and start on barracks. As soon as the horses are connected, we should build pasture on cows. The city will grow quickly from there. The barrack are 90H. Between horses and cows and the center we will have 7H, so barracks will come along fast and we can start Alt-Chariot here as well. After horses and cows, Leonardo should mine one of the plain hills, say the 1N from Memphis, to boost military production.
I will move Tefnut 1N to get rid of the dark spot 2N1W of her—the last thing we want now to interfere with our plans are barb archers.
Shu might be doing some light travel for the same reason (dark tiles west of him and on Silver in the north). Memphis will expand in 8 turns, at which point only the silver tile in the north will be dark, so Shu will go in that direction eventually.
That’s the plan from here on. Comments, suggestions, criticism?
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
Dallas, Texas, GMT -6. You'll hear me grumbling about the heat soon enough...
Why do we want to work the horse before the cow? What's the benefit from that?
Agreed on the barracks, veteran troops will be useful when we go after Catherine.
2440 is LONG for hinduism! Maybe we're the only spiritual civ on the map... But religion is not our goal here, so I guess it's not a big deal.
Why do we want to work the horse before the cow? What's the benefit from that?
Agreed on the barracks, veteran troops will be useful when we go after Catherine.
2440 is LONG for hinduism! Maybe we're the only spiritual civ on the map... But religion is not our goal here, so I guess it's not a big deal.
Sorted by time zone:
Doom Train: Cyprus -- GMT+02
Dolphan: UK (on BST) -- GMT+01 in summer, GMT in winter
Perugia: (on BST) -- GMT+01 in summer, GMT in winter
Groin Apologist: Lansing, Michigan -- GMT-05
Merum: Dallas, Texas -- GMT-06
gskur: Chicago, Illinois -- GMT-06
Goodenuf: Canada -- GMT-08
BrianS: California -- GMT-08
Doom Train: Cyprus -- GMT+02
Dolphan: UK (on BST) -- GMT+01 in summer, GMT in winter
Perugia: (on BST) -- GMT+01 in summer, GMT in winter
Groin Apologist: Lansing, Michigan -- GMT-05
Merum: Dallas, Texas -- GMT-06
gskur: Chicago, Illinois -- GMT-06
Goodenuf: Canada -- GMT-08
BrianS: California -- GMT-08
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
I'm OK with either decision, I just wanted to understand the benefit of working the horse better.
The horse tile, unmodified, gives us 2F1H. The cows give us 2F1H1C.
When the horse tile gets the pasture, it will give us +2H1C, so 2F3H1C, right?
Seems like we're definitely better off on the horses, if the pasture is done. If not, then cow until the horses are corralled.
I'm not sure how those rivers connect and we don't have coastal trading, but I'll take it...
St. Petersburg is on a hill, too. We're going to need a buttload of chariots. Pray that Catherine has no copper...
Do we want to spend the turns on a settler over accepting the less than optimal placement of St. Pete? I think that needs a little consideration...
The horse tile, unmodified, gives us 2F1H. The cows give us 2F1H1C.
When the horse tile gets the pasture, it will give us +2H1C, so 2F3H1C, right?
Seems like we're definitely better off on the horses, if the pasture is done. If not, then cow until the horses are corralled.
I'm not sure how those rivers connect and we don't have coastal trading, but I'll take it...
St. Petersburg is on a hill, too. We're going to need a buttload of chariots. Pray that Catherine has no copper...
Do we want to spend the turns on a settler over accepting the less than optimal placement of St. Pete? I think that needs a little consideration...
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