Yes, FDR being Saladin's worst enemy doesn't help. But the theocracy thing is still worth a shot because he likes us more than he likes Gandhi - make enough of a difference and he might vote for us anyway. Him being friends with HC doesn't make a difference because we never declare on HC - we don't have a negatvie with him for that.
SGOTM 01 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Perugia
Prince
I looked at the save. It is going to be tight out there.
Counting on our friend FDRs votes we have 50% of world population, Gandhi has 25% so we have the necessary 2/3 majority over Gandhi.
We just need to check onFDRs food vs Gandhis to ensure he can't overtake as Gandhi will vote for him if he becomes the rival.
We also need to ensure we have 2/3 of the remaining votes of both Saladin & HC. We need to either get Saladin to vote for us and maul HC or we need to severely maul both Saladin and HC. Clearly getting Saladin to vote for us will be far easier so we should try Dolphans idea of switching Theocracy.
I looked at the religious advisor and see we are in No State Religion. Is this really true or just temporary due to running the Free Religion Civic?
I am asking as we need to know whether when we change religious civics we will stay in No State Religion or return to Buddhism. This matters as diplomacy will be affected.
# FDR is giving us +1 diplo points for "You have shared your technological discoveries with us". What is this for and can we get the same from Saladin.
# HC has founded 2 cities on islands. I suggest we kindly ask FDR to attack Andahuaylas. There is a very good chance he can win and hold it as that island is only 7 tiles from America.
# Roosevelt has a spare 1gpt we can add to the sugar trade.
As we need to fight HC ourselves, it will be easier to win buy growing our own population as much as we can so now I think we should not chop the forests around Persepolis after all to retain as much health potential as possible.
We also need to try and push Gandhis culture border back to obtain food for the border cities. The Stupa in Persepolis is a good start but I would put a harbor in the queue first..
We should also immediately stop trading rice with Gandhi so his cities are more unhealthy though we can continue trading strategic resources like horses. We can either sell him our horses for 14 gpt or take dye from him. The 14gpt would probably be best. (This is 12gpt we are currently getting for rice plus a spare 2gpt he has now).
This also means we may have to think about using Li Po the artist on culture bomb after all as there is no point rushing Mass Media if we can't win the vote.
# The tile E of Susa is now 59% India but only dropped 4% in 18 turns. That is not fast enough!
# Merum you are right to comment on Gordium and 8% flip chance is a problem we need more troops to cope and maybe should culture bomb it.
# The 2 forests 3 tiles S of Susa still have not been chopped, this should be a priority to rush cultural buildings in Susa or Gordium.
# Persepolis and Alexandria have some hefty trade route income and could benefit from harbours.
Counting on our friend FDRs votes we have 50% of world population, Gandhi has 25% so we have the necessary 2/3 majority over Gandhi.
We just need to check onFDRs food vs Gandhis to ensure he can't overtake as Gandhi will vote for him if he becomes the rival.
We also need to ensure we have 2/3 of the remaining votes of both Saladin & HC. We need to either get Saladin to vote for us and maul HC or we need to severely maul both Saladin and HC. Clearly getting Saladin to vote for us will be far easier so we should try Dolphans idea of switching Theocracy.
I looked at the religious advisor and see we are in No State Religion. Is this really true or just temporary due to running the Free Religion Civic?
I am asking as we need to know whether when we change religious civics we will stay in No State Religion or return to Buddhism. This matters as diplomacy will be affected.
# FDR is giving us +1 diplo points for "You have shared your technological discoveries with us". What is this for and can we get the same from Saladin.
# HC has founded 2 cities on islands. I suggest we kindly ask FDR to attack Andahuaylas. There is a very good chance he can win and hold it as that island is only 7 tiles from America.
# Roosevelt has a spare 1gpt we can add to the sugar trade.
As we need to fight HC ourselves, it will be easier to win buy growing our own population as much as we can so now I think we should not chop the forests around Persepolis after all to retain as much health potential as possible.
We also need to try and push Gandhis culture border back to obtain food for the border cities. The Stupa in Persepolis is a good start but I would put a harbor in the queue first..
We should also immediately stop trading rice with Gandhi so his cities are more unhealthy though we can continue trading strategic resources like horses. We can either sell him our horses for 14 gpt or take dye from him. The 14gpt would probably be best. (This is 12gpt we are currently getting for rice plus a spare 2gpt he has now).
This also means we may have to think about using Li Po the artist on culture bomb after all as there is no point rushing Mass Media if we can't win the vote.
# The tile E of Susa is now 59% India but only dropped 4% in 18 turns. That is not fast enough!
# Merum you are right to comment on Gordium and 8% flip chance is a problem we need more troops to cope and maybe should culture bomb it.
# The 2 forests 3 tiles S of Susa still have not been chopped, this should be a priority to rush cultural buildings in Susa or Gordium.
# Persepolis and Alexandria have some hefty trade route income and could benefit from harbours.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
Given the tight population race between Ghandi and FDR, I'm not convinced it's a good idea to ask FDR to attack anything. Any cities he gets are a negative for us at this point. It will suffice if we can keep FDR at war with HC without having him actually take any territory.
Perugia
Prince
I suppose you are right as when HC is broken it will be a race between us and FDR to grab the Incan territory. FDR must not be allowed to get more than 1/3 of HCs territory.Merum said:
BTW I saw Infantry in Hyderabad so Gandhi already has Assembly Line.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
I'm just starting to look about. First thing I did was to load an old save of another egypt game I played and checked what happened when switching out of free religion. I went back to Judaism. Because of the religion change, we would end up with negative relationship points with the other nations.
More later as I come across it.
Just had a tour of our Home continent and in particular the eastern front. We are begging to be pwned by a few caravels of crazed Incans.
15 turns to MM at this point.
Ghandi is Cautious?
I'm a little under the weather. playing the first turns is going to have to wait until tomorrow. Sorry, guys.
More later as I come across it.
Just had a tour of our Home continent and in particular the eastern front. We are begging to be pwned by a few caravels of crazed Incans.
15 turns to MM at this point.
Ghandi is Cautious?
I'm a little under the weather. playing the first turns is going to have to wait until tomorrow. Sorry, guys.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
Dolphan said:
If there is, I'm unaware of it. However, Ghandi has 16 cities to FDR's 12, and Ghandi's are much larger. Ghandi also has a sizable food advantage over FDR, and so I would assume that Ghandi has a good sized lead on FDR when it comes to population.
argh. I just posted my pre-turn activites here, and hit save. Then, Civfanatics told me I wasn't logged in (I was) and threw away half an hour's worth of typing.
Perugia
Prince
In your old save, after you switch from Free religion, how long does it take for the negative relationship points for being Jewish disappear if you go to the religious advisor screen and change religion to No State Religion and is it more than just the time delay to hold another revolution?Merum said:
There is a way which will provide a very very good estimate, just compare crop yield (food) which we get for all Civs on the info screen.Dolphan said:
According to the info screen Gandhi has a Crop Yield of 146 nominal units and FDR 119. Since 2 food can support one citizen of all Civs, it is reasonable to assume that the proportion of population is the same as the proportion of food so:
FDR has 25%*119/146 = 20.4% of the world population.
On the same basis we have 25%*174/146 = 29.8%. Actually we currently have 28.9% of the population so our estimate is accurate to within <1%.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
I'll try to re-construct my pre-turn stuff here:
Renegotiate the sugar deal with FDR
Renegotiate the rice deal with Ghandi for 14gpt plus he throws in Marble. He won't give us pig or wheat, instead, bastard.
Enqueue harbor before stupa in Persepolis
Change Thebes and Memphis to Rifles. We're practically defenseless and it's really bothering me. No impact on research.
Set Giza to pop a GP in 7. This causes slight starvation, but we won't lose pop before the GP comes along.
Renegotiate the sugar deal with FDR
Renegotiate the rice deal with Ghandi for 14gpt plus he throws in Marble. He won't give us pig or wheat, instead, bastard.
Enqueue harbor before stupa in Persepolis
Change Thebes and Memphis to Rifles. We're practically defenseless and it's really bothering me. No impact on research.
Set Giza to pop a GP in 7. This causes slight starvation, but we won't lose pop before the GP comes along.
Perugia
Prince
Elephantine will complete University in 3 after which it can start a Rifleman which will finish before Memphis & Thebes due to the Heroic Epic.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
Back from the grocery store, I hit the turn button and see what happens.
Turn 1 1670
Chemistry to Saladin for Corporation, WM, and 30g.
Ghandi will trade us steel for Electricity, but it's a ripoff beaker-wise. I decide to wait a turn and see.
Not much else to do. Hit Enter.
Turn 2 1673
Ghandi offers steel + 160g for electricity. I decline, wanting to shop first.
I decide that Ghandi can wait a bit for electricity. Radio in 3.
I wish Ghandi would get up off of Communism. He's probably building the Kremlin.
Quick check of the cities, press enter.
Turn 3 1676
Elephantine builds university. Now Rifleman.
Gordium Revolts. Is this the first revolt? I suppose it is, or it would have just flipped. Rather than disbanding all those troops we should have used them as MP here. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.
Ghandi will now give us Steam Power, WM and 160g for Electricity. I'm sure he wants to build Broadway.
Turn 4 1679
Nothing to do. Hit Enter.
Turn 5 1682
We learn Radio and enter the Modern Era. Mass Media due in 8.
I stop here, and upload the save for discussion.
Turn log spoiler:
Back to my old save. I revolt out of free religion to judaism. Immediately get -3 from all other civs running religions. I was able to immediately convert to "No State Religion" and the negatives go away. Question is, will we get ANY benefit out of the civic if a city HAS a religion and we have no state religion. This is confusing.
Turn 1 1670
Chemistry to Saladin for Corporation, WM, and 30g.
Ghandi will trade us steel for Electricity, but it's a ripoff beaker-wise. I decide to wait a turn and see.
Not much else to do. Hit Enter.
Turn 2 1673
Ghandi offers steel + 160g for electricity. I decline, wanting to shop first.
I decide that Ghandi can wait a bit for electricity. Radio in 3.
I wish Ghandi would get up off of Communism. He's probably building the Kremlin.
Quick check of the cities, press enter.
Turn 3 1676
Elephantine builds university. Now Rifleman.
Gordium Revolts. Is this the first revolt? I suppose it is, or it would have just flipped. Rather than disbanding all those troops we should have used them as MP here. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.
Ghandi will now give us Steam Power, WM and 160g for Electricity. I'm sure he wants to build Broadway.
Turn 4 1679
Nothing to do. Hit Enter.
Turn 5 1682
We learn Radio and enter the Modern Era. Mass Media due in 8.
I stop here, and upload the save for discussion.
Turn log spoiler:
Spoiler :
Back to my old save. I revolt out of free religion to judaism. Immediately get -3 from all other civs running religions. I was able to immediately convert to "No State Religion" and the negatives go away. Question is, will we get ANY benefit out of the civic if a city HAS a religion and we have no state religion. This is confusing.
Perugia
Prince
@Merum. The benefit from running Theocracy would be to get positive relationship points with Saladin #614 for adopting his favorite civic. Our cities would not gain any benefit under no state religion but we would not get negative heathen religion modifiers.
Is it possible to find out what religions the AIs are running at the moment to see if this matters.
Is it possible to find out what religions the AIs are running at the moment to see if this matters.
Can't see the save at the moment, but when I played the only civ running a religion was HC, and any negative with him is irrelevant. EDIT - Merum, if I remember correctly Gandhi already built the Kremlin. Sorry, that should have been in the report, if I'm not imagining it.
Perugia
Prince
Gandhi's culture is about twice ours and climbing rapidly. We should do something about this to help the border cities.
With Mass Media due in 8 I think we should use Li Po the Great Artist for a culture bomb at Susa. This should capture some better tiles for Susa and Bactra to use.
With a grocer completing in Heliopolis in 2 turns removing the health cap, the city it should be MM for a faster growth rate, +1fpt is just too sloooooow.
Did you notice our old units we gave to Gandhi - Serket I and Dani have been upgraded to cavalry.
With Mass Media due in 8 I think we should use Li Po the Great Artist for a culture bomb at Susa. This should capture some better tiles for Susa and Bactra to use.
With a grocer completing in Heliopolis in 2 turns removing the health cap, the city it should be MM for a faster growth rate, +1fpt is just too sloooooow.
Did you notice our old units we gave to Gandhi - Serket I and Dani have been upgraded to cavalry.
Perugia
Prince
Gandhi has the Kremlin.
@Dolphan. So only HC has religion, that is good. I can see Gandhi & FDR are running Free religion but
Saladin is running Theocracy (of course as its his favourite). So how do we know he is not running a religion?
I hope you are right because as long as Saladin has no religion then we can remain Buddhist to benefit from Theocracy and get +2XP per unit built and get +1 happy per city.
@Dolphan. So only HC has religion, that is good. I can see Gandhi & FDR are running Free religion but
Saladin is running Theocracy (of course as its his favourite). So how do we know he is not running a religion?
I hope you are right because as long as Saladin has no religion then we can remain Buddhist to benefit from Theocracy and get +2XP per unit built and get +1 happy per city.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
Yeah, I understand about the civics bonus. I was just wondering if we would get any other benefit from running it in our cities.
Will a culture bomb atBactra Susa help us with Gordium? I'm not sure.
Will a culture bomb at
Perugia
Prince
I am stupid. I can see that HC is running religion on the score display and no one else is.Perugia said:
So, if nothing changes prior to the vote at the UN we can switch to Theocracy to get the +1 You have chosen your civics wisely on diplomacy with saladin while not upsetting FDR.
Perugia
Prince
Thanks to discussion with Dolphan I can see, we can get the +2XP benefit from Theocracy (unless the situation changes).Merum said:
The culture bomb should be at Susa or Gordium but the risk is that we bomb Gordium but it flips anyway. Previously we had considered Gordium expendable. On the plus side we should soon get a Great Person at Giza that might be an artist, we should also be able to get an artist from Moscow quite soon if we change to caste system once Mass Media is in.
I think we should soon cancel the rice deal with Gandhi to limit his cities growth potential. We can also cancel the dye/horse deal and sell him our horse for 14gpt.
Perugia
Prince
We should be able to win the game in about 20 turns from now. So what are we going to do by way of economic and science policy to accelerate this.
Right now we should maximise the chances of each city growing as many times as it can within those 20 turns, later on we can turn off excess food at each city that cannot grow again before the game ends.
Right now we should ban the use of specialists and non-food producing tiles in most cities until the cities are unable to grow (The exceptions would be cities that can pop a great person or ones where every hammer really matters right now).
Likewise we should ban pop rushing except in very exceptional circumstances (such as rushing the UN) as we need every pop point to vote for victory and not die cruelly from overuse of the whip.
Many new buildings will never repay the hammers invested in them so cities should be moving to constructing culture and units soon. Some cities should actually abandon the buildings under construction right now that are unlikely to help our victory especially any that do not produce culture or growth eg there are some Observatories being built now that I don’t think can help us win. Those cities should switch to units or something cultural (see below).
We also need to start thinking about running the rest of the economy for short-term gain as well. Quite soon we should turn off science alltogether as we will not get any payback from many more new technologies and we will get better use of our commerce by increasing culture and gold sliders at the expense of science.
Eventually some of our cities will start to run out of food ie will not have enough surplus food to grow before the game ends. We should start setters in those places to make use of this food. These settlers can found new cities that each will give us one extra pop point. The settlers should be gold rushed so they complete in perfect time to found the turn before the second UN vote (this delay minimises city maintenance costs).
After researching Mass Media I think we should quickly learn Democracy which should take just a handful of turns to research. We can then switch to the Universal Suffrage civic. We will then be able to gold rush the things we really need when we need them. We should also be able to use some gold to promote high XP units just before we invade HC.
I think we will benefit from increasing the culture slider in 3 ways: this will 1) increase the culture of our border cities by a small amount, 2) increase our overall culture and 3) add happy faces from our cities. More culture will help us hold the Indian border while more happiness will offset switching out of Free Religion and cancelling the deal that gets us Dye from India. These details form part of our tactics for victory as mentioned elsewhere.
Conclusion
In the above plan we only research techs we need to win and only build things we need to win, nothing else matters.
If there are any technologies that you believe we should research after Mass Media and Democracy please post your ideas.
Similarly if there any any buildings that you believe are a must for any particular city please post your ideas.
Note on City Specialisation
Later in the plan I will advise my recommendations for what each city should be building but there are 4 general categories.
1) Settler – build in cities on our home continent that will not grow before the predicted victory date. Don’t build more than there are open sites for.
2) Military units - Build in cities on our home continent with large production.
3) Culture – Build in cities on our home continent with plenty of food but small production. These cities do not have enough production to complete units or anything useful before the game ends so may as well help prevent our border cities flipping.
4) Cultural Buildings/Culture – All the cities on the Indian continent should be building cultural buildings or culture. Cultural buildings that we can complete quickly should be chopped where we can (where health is not an issue) and/or gold rushed. Then these cities can switch to just building culture.
5) Great Person - for a short while one or two cities will try to pop a great person as quickly as they can. The food shortage this brings does not automatically move them into settler construction but that might be good as if they are not growing why not put the hammers into a settler.
All cities are allowed essential health or other buildings and to complete anything in the queue that will assist in victory.
Right now we should maximise the chances of each city growing as many times as it can within those 20 turns, later on we can turn off excess food at each city that cannot grow again before the game ends.
Right now we should ban the use of specialists and non-food producing tiles in most cities until the cities are unable to grow (The exceptions would be cities that can pop a great person or ones where every hammer really matters right now).
Likewise we should ban pop rushing except in very exceptional circumstances (such as rushing the UN) as we need every pop point to vote for victory and not die cruelly from overuse of the whip.
Many new buildings will never repay the hammers invested in them so cities should be moving to constructing culture and units soon. Some cities should actually abandon the buildings under construction right now that are unlikely to help our victory especially any that do not produce culture or growth eg there are some Observatories being built now that I don’t think can help us win. Those cities should switch to units or something cultural (see below).
We also need to start thinking about running the rest of the economy for short-term gain as well. Quite soon we should turn off science alltogether as we will not get any payback from many more new technologies and we will get better use of our commerce by increasing culture and gold sliders at the expense of science.
Eventually some of our cities will start to run out of food ie will not have enough surplus food to grow before the game ends. We should start setters in those places to make use of this food. These settlers can found new cities that each will give us one extra pop point. The settlers should be gold rushed so they complete in perfect time to found the turn before the second UN vote (this delay minimises city maintenance costs).
After researching Mass Media I think we should quickly learn Democracy which should take just a handful of turns to research. We can then switch to the Universal Suffrage civic. We will then be able to gold rush the things we really need when we need them. We should also be able to use some gold to promote high XP units just before we invade HC.
I think we will benefit from increasing the culture slider in 3 ways: this will 1) increase the culture of our border cities by a small amount, 2) increase our overall culture and 3) add happy faces from our cities. More culture will help us hold the Indian border while more happiness will offset switching out of Free Religion and cancelling the deal that gets us Dye from India. These details form part of our tactics for victory as mentioned elsewhere.
Conclusion
In the above plan we only research techs we need to win and only build things we need to win, nothing else matters.
If there are any technologies that you believe we should research after Mass Media and Democracy please post your ideas.
Similarly if there any any buildings that you believe are a must for any particular city please post your ideas.
Note on City Specialisation
Later in the plan I will advise my recommendations for what each city should be building but there are 4 general categories.
1) Settler – build in cities on our home continent that will not grow before the predicted victory date. Don’t build more than there are open sites for.
2) Military units - Build in cities on our home continent with large production.
3) Culture – Build in cities on our home continent with plenty of food but small production. These cities do not have enough production to complete units or anything useful before the game ends so may as well help prevent our border cities flipping.
4) Cultural Buildings/Culture – All the cities on the Indian continent should be building cultural buildings or culture. Cultural buildings that we can complete quickly should be chopped where we can (where health is not an issue) and/or gold rushed. Then these cities can switch to just building culture.
5) Great Person - for a short while one or two cities will try to pop a great person as quickly as they can. The food shortage this brings does not automatically move them into settler construction but that might be good as if they are not growing why not put the hammers into a settler.
All cities are allowed essential health or other buildings and to complete anything in the queue that will assist in victory.
Perugia
Prince
This is a collation of earlier posts with some new material.
Gandhi will be our rival with approx 25% of the vote.
FDR is friendly (+11) and we are expecting his 20% of the vote. This includes +4 Mutual Military Struggle. He has No State Religion from Free Religion.
FDR made peace with HC before so it is essential we retain a monopoly on Radio so we can get FDR to redeclare on HC if he makes peace again. This should ensure we have FDR's support in the vote for Secretary General of the UN.
Later on we can use our monopoly on Mass Media to ensure FDR redeclares on HC just before the crucial victory vote is he makes peace once again.
Saladin is pleased with us (+6) and has 13% of the vote. We can move this to (+7) by adopting Theocracy/Buddhism. He has No State Religion. If he adopts one then we will need to adopt No State Religion ourselves and will lose the Theocracy bonuses.
Saladin is best buddies with HC so we will not be able to persuade him to declare on HC to get the +4 Mutual Military Struggle. When the vote for Secretary General of the UN is held we will see if Saladin will vote for us or just abstain.
At (+7) it is not certain if he will vote for us. If he does we should be able to win by maxing out our population and razing a few HC cities.
Conclusion
If Saladin abstains then we will need to capture most of HC and may need to attack Saladin as well. This will add many turns to the game and may mean we need to switch research back on to improve the military.
We should scout one or two Incan cities to see what the defenses are.
We also really need to max out food and get the Secretary General vote going to see which way things will pan out.
Folks - do you buy into this? Can we win in 20 turns or will it be more like 40? I'm not an expert at Diplo wins so have no idea if Saladin is likely to help us out?
Gandhi will be our rival with approx 25% of the vote.
FDR is friendly (+11) and we are expecting his 20% of the vote. This includes +4 Mutual Military Struggle. He has No State Religion from Free Religion.
FDR made peace with HC before so it is essential we retain a monopoly on Radio so we can get FDR to redeclare on HC if he makes peace again. This should ensure we have FDR's support in the vote for Secretary General of the UN.
Later on we can use our monopoly on Mass Media to ensure FDR redeclares on HC just before the crucial victory vote is he makes peace once again.
Saladin is pleased with us (+6) and has 13% of the vote. We can move this to (+7) by adopting Theocracy/Buddhism. He has No State Religion. If he adopts one then we will need to adopt No State Religion ourselves and will lose the Theocracy bonuses.
Saladin is best buddies with HC so we will not be able to persuade him to declare on HC to get the +4 Mutual Military Struggle. When the vote for Secretary General of the UN is held we will see if Saladin will vote for us or just abstain.
At (+7) it is not certain if he will vote for us. If he does we should be able to win by maxing out our population and razing a few HC cities.
Conclusion
If Saladin abstains then we will need to capture most of HC and may need to attack Saladin as well. This will add many turns to the game and may mean we need to switch research back on to improve the military.
We should scout one or two Incan cities to see what the defenses are.
We also really need to max out food and get the Secretary General vote going to see which way things will pan out.
Folks - do you buy into this? Can we win in 20 turns or will it be more like 40? I'm not an expert at Diplo wins so have no idea if Saladin is likely to help us out?
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