SGOTM 01 - Fifth Element

[Perugia]

@Goodenuf. Shame about the crash, who cares about the logfile as long as the save is OK! I hope you have a good time with your unexpected visitors.

I feel better now we have some ivory due to to the trade with Saladin. Elephants have a significant edge over pikemen when facing knights and are often better in other situations. We should add some to the next queue.

Yuk! The Culture situation at Susa is worse that I expected. I knew culture bombs were supposed to be not very effective against mature borders but this is ridiculous. Looks like we will have to use the second GA here.

The main problem could be distance from our capital, maybe we should build a palace somewhere in Persia instead of the FP?

Doom_train (up)
gskur (on deck)
Dolphan (skipped)
Merum
groin_apologist (skipped)
Perugia
BrianS
goodenuf (resting)

@Doomtrain. You are up. Look at the save and report in asap. We can't afford to forget any aspect of the game at the moment so the team will help you get through your turns, like we did with the last few turnsets.........

 

[Doom Train]

Got the save, opened it with no problems...

I ll play 20 turns since i have lots of free time.

Since we will use second GA on Susa there is no point to keep Libyan. But lets discuss this after i capture it...

Planining to build Forbidden Palace in Persepolis after Cyrus is defeated what do you think about it?

I ll switch to Free Speech(+2 commerce from towns and %100 culture) and Free Religion(No state religion and +%10 science in all cities) after our queue of units is complete. This would help our research.

 

[Perugia]

Got the save, opened it with no problems...

I ll play 20 turns since i have lots of free time

. OK but you me and Dolphan are all about the same time zone so please keep in touch - you can load the save to the server at any time so we can look at it too.

Since we will use second GA on Susa there is no point to keep Libyan. But lets discuss this after i capture it...

. Yes. Definitely capture it rather than raze as we do not want the negative diplomacy impact of razing.

Planning to build Forbidden Palace in Persepolis after Cyrus is defeated what do you think about it?

. We need the Forbidden Palace but I'm not sure about Persepolis as it's not central enough. Pasargadae would be better in my opinion.

I also think we should consider moving the Palace to Persia instead of building the Forbidden Palace in Persia. We can sumultaneously build the Forbidden Palace back on our home continent at Elephantine say or afte the Palace has moved back in Thebes.

Moving the Capital to Persia will help keep back Gandhi's cultural influence on our Persian holdings as this has a dependence on distance to the capitals. The distance from Susa to Dehli is much much less than Susa to Thebes. What do you think?

I ll switch to Free Speech(+2 commerce from towns and %100 culture) and Free Religion(No state religion and +%10 science in all cities) after our queue of units is complete. This would help our research.

I think this will not help research enough. I would adopt Free Speech and Caste System (unlimited Scientists and later artists) and adopt Pacifism (+100% great person points in all cities). You should put many scientists to work in Moscow & Giza and anywhere else with lots of Great People points already queued up. The idea is to pop out the first Great Scientist or two quickly as possible and then see how many beakers it is worth to sacrifice towards Physics. Then let us know.

We can then work out if a second or even third great scientist should be produced rather than using Free Religion. Then we should start building Great Artist points again as we can use these guys on both Radio and Mass Media.

Once we have popped all the great people we want we should indeed go to Free Religion and we can drop Caste System.

Must go out now but will be back later.

 

[Doom Train]

I also think we should consider moving the Palace to Persia instead of building the Forbidden Palace in Persia. We can sumultaneously build the Forbidden Palace back on our home continent at Elephantine say or afte the Palace has moved back in Thebes.

Moving the Capital to Persia will help keep back Gandhi's cultural influence on our Persian holdings as this has a dependence on distance to the capitals. The distance from Susa to Dehli is much much less than Susa to Thebes. What do you think?

Hmm interesting idea, I like it. But the critical questions are where? and when?.

Persepolis can finish the palace quicker since it produce highest amonut of hammer in Persia also there are several forests around Persepolis that can help. But geographically best location would be Pasargadae.

Should we start this project now or after the war?. I say we should wait for the effects of second GA in Susa...

 

[Perugia]

I am about to post a plan

 

[Perugia]

Research
Physics > Electricity > Radio > Mass Media
Physics due in 21 @ 50%
Use 2 or more Great Scientists to help research Physics & Electricity (one free with Physics)
Use some Great Artists to help research Radio & Mass Media

Key Stats
Treasury 552 -11/Turn @ %50%
Unit Cost 22 (will rise when we leave Vassalage)
Unit Supply 0

Part A - Important Points

I changed my mind a little on the Civics. I think we should go with Free Religion for 5 or 10 turns then switch to Caste System & Pacifism to try and pop a scientist from Giza just at the very moment we learn Physics. With the free GS from Physics we will rush to Electricity and can trade away both Sci Meth and Physics.

I'm also assuming we want to drop slavery and go for Serfdom if not then the Palace & Forbidden palace whipping (see 5 below) could be delayed a turn or two to save population.

1. Capture Libyan, do not raze the city. We certainly have the forces for this now... it's just a matter of getting them there. Until this is done, our Persian cities will have lots of unhappy faces.

The current turn has moves left to execute...

Units are being healed in Susa and Gordium. These, along with some additional units in other cities on this continent, a Cat on the 'ferry' galley by Tarsus, and a Knight that just landed south of Tarsus are available to attack Libyan.

2. When Libyan is ours, check the score to ensure Cyrus has not escaped. Then gift Libyan to FDR (if he will not take it to Saladin or as a last resort Gandhi).

3. I had a look at the save. Pasargadae looks the best place to relocate the capital. This will bring both Susa and Bactra closer to our capital than Delhi. Gordium will be equal distance and Tarsus will be a little closer to Dehli but OK as it will be protected by Bactra's culture. This should stabilise the cultural war allowing us to get the Persian cities on stream properly.

4. Pasargadae looks the best place for the Palace. You should start building the Palace now to maximise the number of hammers invested in it. Get rid of the specialist there now and work a farmed plains instead to speed up growth.

Elephantine looks the best place for the Forbidden Palace, this too should be started right now - it will get a nice 68 hammer head start due to overflow.

5. We have 2 turns remaining in the current civics and we are in slavery now, so just before we change civics we should rush both the Palace in Pasargadae and the Forbidden Palace in Elephantine to get the most out of our spell in slavery.

6. Gordium has 2 turns of revolt to go. After that we should have access to the marble.

7. Elephantine has enough food stored that when it is rushed it will regrow almost immediately. When the FP completes, start the Heroic Epic if the marble from Gordium is connected.

8. Do not worry if miltary get left on the queue eg at Elephantine, due to more important builds - we can’t afford that much larger a military (-22 gpt at the moment and rising significantly when we leave Vassalage).

9. Susa is under VERY heavy cultural pressure; it's population is down to 1. We might need to use our 2nd GA to help out here. The GA (Li Po) just landed on the Persian island S of Tarsus (with the Knight). However, with the Palace moving to Persia in 3 turns, Li Po should be held in reserve until the Palace completes as we may not need him at Susa once the capital is in Pasargadae.

10. We can then use the GA at Gordium or keep him to research Radio or Mass Media.

11. We are in Vass/Theo right now while we're building units on the mainland. We should get back to something more 'science friendly' after our queue of units is complete. We are building in anticipation of an HC attack (either from him or from us).

12. Giza, Moscow & Memphis can't get a lot of GP production going until we get back to Caste system. Caste is great for GP, but its expensive. The GPs should be used for researching down the Mass Media path. A GE should be held for the UN build (there's a GE in Thebes already).

13. Switch to Free Religion and Serfdom (or Emancipation if available).

Keep 2 scientists running in Giza so it will pop a Great Scientist when we need it.

Run only artists in Moscow so it will hopefully pop one when we are researching Radio or Mass Media.

14. After 5-10 turns in Free religion, switch to Free Speech, Caste System and Pacifism.

Put 5 scientists to work in Giza (564 GPPs at the moment)

Put more artists to work in Moscow so we can persuade a Great Artist to pop out when we are researcing Radio or Mass media.

15. Persepolis has 6 unhappy citizens so now is the time to crack the whip immediately to rush the Globe Theatre which will solve the problem for ever. It can then turn in to a gold town and go for grocer and bank while maximising use of food tiles (votes, votes and more votes). Don't chop any more forests as it will need the health bonus. Don't run specialists there. Once it goes unhealthy add a aqueduct to the queue.

16. When Giza pops its great scientist, see how many beakers it will contribute towards Physics but do not go through without consultation as it might be better to keep it for electricity.

17. Keep checking if Saladin will DoW on HC for Tech.

18. Do not sell Scientific Method to Gandhi for Replaceable Parts, WM & 50 gold without discussing with the team. We need to be closer to physics.

Part B - Details

1. The settler is ready in the North to grow votes in the area 5W of Thebes for city build. This will reduce our military cost but add a little to maintenance.

2. We have a chariot Zzzzing on the Horses near Tarsus. This is not necesarry now they are in our borders. The chariot should be redeployed.

3. In 7 turns, check if we can renegotiate with FDR, Saladin and Ghandi to get more gpt for our resources.

4. HC has not moved at all. No more units in the galleons. Not sure what he's up to. FDR will go back to war with him for SciMethod, but we are not far enough along with Physics to make this viable.

5. Unit support is now getting expensive (22 gold per turn now) so once we hold the next revolution we should keep queing military but not build them until we can afford it or until we are ready to invade HC. We should build economic buildings in places with decent commerce such as Alexandria, Heliopolis & Pi-Ramesses.

6. Giza is unhealthy now and Elephantine nearly. Eventually they will need grocer or aqueduct. We could instead sell gems to gandhi for his wheat. With luck we will get the pigs at Bactra when the Palace moves to Pasargadae.

7. Sidon should work the mine is shares with Moscow instead of one of the coast tiles as Moscow has another mine it is not even using!

 

[Doom Train]

Wow great plan. I am starting my turnset now...

 

[Doom Train]

Played 4 turns(including one left from last turnset)

1553 AD Turn 0: Amarna founded 5W o Thebes. Forbidden Palace started in Elephantine and Palace started in Pasargadae. Arranged specialists as stated in plan. Whipped globe Theatre in Persepolis. Bank started in Pi-Rameses and Memphis...

1556 AD Turn 1: Started bank in Persepolis. Colluseum started in Thebes. Grocer started in Alex .Cyrus apeared with knight and maceman near Bactra. HC caravel appeared near giza.

1559 AD Turn 2: Cyrus knight attacked Bactra but ur maceman defated him. Later his maceman moved to pillage the resource near bactra but i commanded a knigt from Susa to attack him. He lost depite %75 odds. Late another maceman from bactra finished him. HC caravel attacked galley near giza we lost galley 7. Later i commanded one of our caravel to engage it but we lost again. Galleon finished the job. Whipped forbidden Palace. Started Budhist temple in Gordia.

1562 AD Turn 3: It seems we need 10 pop to rush Palace in Pasargadae. Heroic epic started in Elephantine. Observatory started in Moscow.

I am starting to move on Libyan is it okay?.

I think it ll better to adopt Free Religion and serfdom now because then switch to slavery again to rush palace when Pasargadae grows to 10.

Should i use GA in Susa?or wait for the palace?

 

[Perugia]

Great Turn so far. Good idea to change civics now to Free Religion & Free Speech (+ Serfdom to speed worker performance by 50%) then report back when the whip is possible (you can still mouse over to see how much pop it will cost even when its greyed out).

In the first screenie I expect the worker in the blue circle is going to farm that plains tile and then the grassland 1NE. This will allow water onto the rice paddy just out of shot.

Amarna shold build a granary first to double its growth rate, every new pop point is more votes to our UN victory condition - it does not need culture so scrap the theatre.

In the second screenie the citizen working the coast for 2f2c could move to the plains farm shared with Arbela to get one more hammer towards the Palace which will help.

I would hold your nerve with the Great Artist, unless there's a revolt at Susa. All could change once you destroy Cyrus at Libyan which you should go ahead with as planned.

Make sure you are replacing the losses by moving units forward from our centre area - don't worry too much though as it will reduce maintenance.

If there are spare obsolete units in the areas far from HC a few could be moved nearer Thebes so they can be used as bait should he land.

Good luck. I'll check again later tonight.

 

[Doom Train]

Intended to play until the capture of Libyan but important event occured. Read my report.

1562 AD Turn 4: Starting to move towards Libyan. Changed civics to FS,FR,Serfdom.(505 g +15gpt) amarna started granary.

1565AD Turn 5: Jewish temple completed in arbela started Granary.

1568Ad Turn 6: GANDHI NOW HAS SCIETIFIC METHOD. We are 13 turns away from Physics.

Stopped here because I think we should do something to speed up our research. Gandhi surely has faster research speed compared to us. I have uploaded the save please take look at it...

 

[Perugia]

Intended to play until the capture of Libyan but important event occured. Read my report.

1562 AD Turn 4: Starting to move towards Libyan. Changed civics to FS,FR,Serfdom.(505 g +15gpt) amarna started granary.

1565AD Turn 5: Jewish temple completed in arbela started Granary.

1568Ad Turn 6: GANDHI NOW HAS SCIETIFIC METHOD. We are 13 turns away from Physics.

Stopped here because I think we should do something to speed up our research. Gandhi surely has faster research speed compared to us. I have uploaded the save please take look at it...

You are right, science is now top priority. I can't look at the save right now but hopefully someone else can. In general we should try any or all of the following:

# MM every city to maximise commerce production. Get every last commerce you can.

This means working hamlets, coast, cottages, windmills, rivers etc in preference to forest, mines, stone, farms and so forth.

# Make sure cities not able to use all the commerce tiles available to them are not using a commerce tile shared with another city if the other city is short of commerce tiles.

# Run scientists or merchants in preference to any tile producing 0 or 1 commerce (unless the city is about to grow) [In some cases even in preference to 2 commerce].

# Switch all cities producing 2 or more hammers to research, unless they are about to pop an economic building. The only exception is the Palace in Pasargadae.

# Do not build any new units as these will cost support (won't happen if nearly every city is building research).

# Sell Sci Method to FDR for whatever we can, hopefully including gold.

# Sell tech to Saladin for his treasury (20-50 gold I expect)

# Increase the science slider until we -ve gpt that will use up all our treasury in the time it takes to learn Physics.

# We can use Hereditry Rule and MPs so all our citizens remain happy.
See if we can rearrange our mp's so all cities have excess luxuries.

If we can arrange this then cancel some luxury for luxury deal with Gandhi so hopefully some of his citizens become unhappy which will reduce his science rate. This will slow gandhi a bit on top of the loss of his monastery 10% bonus when he learned Sci Meth.

# Double check we have OB with Gandhi, FDR & Saladin

 

[Doom Train]

Bad news read report...

1568AD Turn 6:Memphis, Thebes, Persepolis, elephantine producing research. I ve done everything i could do to maximize research in other cities.

Sold Scientific Method to Roosevelt for economics world map and 10 gold.
No deal with Saladin because he has only 10 gold.

Current situation is 593g(-69gpt) Physics 9 turns away.

1571 AD turn 7: Nothing interesting

1574 AD turn 8: Hc caravel spotted near Giza our galleon destroyed it. INDIAN REVOLT in SUSA. I am gonna send a unit from persepolis. Physics 6 turns away...

1577 AD turn 9: Nothing

1580 AD turn 10 : Defences of Liyan reduced to %40. Physics 4 turns away.

Got Replaceaple parts +30 gold + World map from saladin for liberalism and economics...

Gandhi spared me 1gpt

1583 AD turn 11: Revolt in Susa ended. Susa cultural borders expanded but stil no improvement over Indian culture...

1586 AD turn 12: Bad news Gandhi won Physics race. We have 2 turns left for it.

Libyan fallen 7 turns to restore order...

I think it is good place to stop and make plan for remaining moves. My suggestions are:

1- Palace will be moved to Pasargadae in 5 turns. Since Cyrus is destroyed I think we can wait 5 more turns for Susa.

2- I ll switch back this Research build to get some economic buildings after we got physics.

3- FDR has good relations with Gandhi because he is running free reliogion. We should reconsider gifting Libyan

I ve uploaded the save...

 

[Merum]

Ghandi is going to rush to the UN, just like we are. We must improve our research capacity. He's already two turns ahead of us on this path, and likely to widen that gap.

 

[Jastrow]

Lurker question...

Where do you and Ghandi rank in terms of population? Does it matter who builds the UN?

 

[BrianS]

Has the extra GA been moved to Susa to create a great work? That should be done immediately.

 

[gskur]

@ Perugia
@ Fifth Element Team

I am very sorry I have to do this, but I will not be able to actively participate in this game till the end of this SGOM--something came up that I cannot refuse or delay. It would not be fair for me to assume a turn and botch it up because of a hurried approach. I will be looking in and commenting on occasionally, but must ask not to be scheduled for the turns. I hope you will continue count me as team member. I will certainly continue feeling and behaving this way, anyhow.

We can still win it, I think!

 

[Perugia]

Has the extra GA been moved to Susa to create a great work? That should be done immediately.

The Artist is in place but I think the cultural situation will improve after the Palace moves to Pasargadae. Susa was only 7% Egyptian in 1547AD now it's up to 18%, if
Susa should work the 4 hammer mine hill at the moment. It will stagnate but theatre due in 2 turns rather than 6. It can then go back to the Hamlet when the Theatre is built.

With the Theatre there and closer palace, I believe the situation will drastically improve.

This will allow the Artist to be kept back to rush Radio which we need if we are to stand any chance getting to the UN ahead of Gandhi. Are you convinced?

Where do you and Ghandi rank in terms of population? Does it matter who builds the UN?

We are 2nd in Pop but need to control the UN to ensure we are one of the candidates and the vote goes ahead and not silly civics resolutions.

Ghandi is going to rush to the UN, just like we are. We must improve our research capacity. He's already two turns ahead of us on this path, and likely to widen that gap.

we are going to have to ruthlessly focus on science. Here are some ideas

# We learned Economics from Saladin2 turns back but forgot to switch to Free Market for the extra trade route. We should do so immediately and drop into slavery ready for the Palace rush.

# We have unit cost of 29 so should disband some of the obsolete units.

# We have unit supply of 1 so should move one unit inside our borders. Perhaps the Galley 4 to the SE of Sidon.

# We can renegotiate our fish deal with Saladin from 6gpt to 7gpt

FDR & Saladin are not interested in Libyan. It will have to go to Gandhi before it comes out of revolt so we don't have to pay maintenance.


Not all our cities are maximising research & growth.....

# Elephantine is not optimised at all. There is a town not being worked and the 2f2c coasts whould be worked in preference to the hills.

# Persepolis is not set up correctly either. As it has the Globe Theatre, it should be set up to maximise in priority 1) food, 2) commerce, 3) hammers. It should not be using any specialists. It should be working ALL the water tiles except the ocean and the grassland forests. Doing this will make it grow in 1.

Actually you can achive pretty much this by activating the govenor and emphasising food and commerce.

With a huge pop in Persepolis and a forge, we can build the UN in 2 turns by, change to organised religion and putting 1 turn of normal hammers in then on the second turn, sacrifice our GE, chop the 4 forests and pop rush the rest so we can beat Gandhi to UN even if he learns Mass Media first.

# If we have a spare worker we could cottage a grassland at Bactra

# Gordium is 100% egyptian and won't revolt at the moment.
#Thebes is working a plains mine for 4 hammers but could work the lake which will provide 2 commerce and 2 food.

#Likewise Memphis can swap one of its 4 hammer plains mines for a coast tile.

# Heliopolis should work 3 2f2c coasts instead of plains hill, and 2 forests.

# I'm not sure if the Artist in Giza is helping or should work the coast.

# Once Sidon completes its Library in 4 it should give the mine back to Alexandria, ignore the workshop and concentrate on working the coast only perhaps even the incense.

# Moscow can grow in 2 if it swaps from a grass hill to the plantation.

 

[Perugia]

@ Perugia
@ Fifth Element Team

I am very sorry I have to do this, but I will not be able to actively participate in this game till the end of this SGOM--something came up that I cannot refuse or delay. It would not be fair for me to assume a turn and botch it up because of a hurried approach. I will be looking in and commenting on occasionally, but must ask not to be scheduled for the turns. I hope you will continue count me as team member. I will certainly continue feeling and behaving this way, anyhow.

OK Thanks for letting us know. Rest assured you will always be welcome in the team and on this thread when you can comment. As requested, I'll put you on permanent skip - it will say (on secondment) in the turn order.

We can still win it, I think!

That's the spirit!

 

[Doom Train]

I ve completed my turnset. I tried to complete banks so we can move science slider to %70. I did it succesfully read the report...

1586 AD turn 12: Implemented the suggestions...

1589 AD turn 13: Budhist temple completed in bactra started granary. HC galleon destroyed fishing boats near giza. Caravel weakened it before our injured galleon destroyed it.

1592 AD turn 14: Theatre completed in Susa started Budhist Temple. Phsysics completed started electricity (18 turns away)

1595 AD turn 15: Nothing

1598 AD turn 16: Sidon completed library couthouse started. Whipped palace in pasargadae also whipped bank in persepolis.

1601 AD turn 17: Started library iin persepolis. Heroic epic completed in Elephantine Observatory started...

1604 AD turn 18: Library started in Pasargadae.

1607 AD turn 19: Bank completed in Pi-Ramases started library.

1610 AD turn 20: Bank completed in memphis and giza.

Electricity is now due 9 turns...

Next player will be Merum with recent skips...

 

[Doom Train]

I think SGOTM site is down again. I ve uploaded the save to rapidshare.

http://rapidshare.de/files/26175239/Fifth_Element_AD-1610.Civ4SavedGame.html