SGOTM 01 - Memphis Blues

[KingdomBrunel]

I like the pink one, good defense, and captures more land squares.
Do we want Open Borders with Cathy if she offers - we can always cancel later if we see a settler coming? Personally I vote yes, it could be our only way of finding other civs soon.

 

[Syntherio]

Radiopills new pink dot looks perfect and he is right with pointing out the importance of copper. Maybe it is necessary to found another city to control a source of copper, but it is also possible, that we must grab it from Cathy... We´ll see.

For the worker... we need horses now, they must be hooked right after this mining, thebes cannot support atm all its hill mined...

Quoted for the importance

And to the open-borders: As long as we don´t have free units for scouting, we should wait. Normally I don´t care much for this kind of "late exploration" and accept an open-border-agreement just for the traderoutes, but KingdomBrunel is right: We must find other civs, especially the incans.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I like the pink one, good defense, and captures more land squares.
Do we want Open Borders with Cathy if she offers - we can always cancel later if we see a settler coming? Personally I vote yes, it could be our only way of finding other civs soon.

Im also in favor of this. It would give us an opportunity to scout the Russian Empire and locate strategic ressources like bronze and horses. It would also tell us what kind of units we were facing (Big difference between archers and axemen!). We shouldn't start a war if we are not confident that we can capture enough cities to cripple the Russians. We might even consider offering open borders ourselves when we have researched Writing. Anyway we shouldn't go to war before the Pyramids are done.

As long as we don´t have free units for scouting, we should wait.

Agree!

 

[KingdomBrunel]

OK – I’ve completed my turns. Summary and end of turn screenshots below:

• 2140BC (Turn 0): Save loaded. Production in Thebes & Memphis changed to warrior.
• 2110BC (Turn 1): Meditation researched. Bronze Working started (19 turns). Worker sent to the horse. Catherine’s scout is stuck the wrong side of our borders.
• 2080BC (Turn 2): Judaism founded (unknown land)
• 2050BC (Turn 3): Thebes builds Warrior, and goes back to the Pyramids. Science back up to 100% as gold had built slightly.
• 2020BC (Turn 4): Worker starts pasturising?!? the horse. Going to take a while as roads need to be built too.
• 1990BC (Turn 5): -
• 1960BC (Turn 6): -
• 1930BC (Turn 7): Stonehenge built (unknown land)
• 1900BC (Turn 8): -
• 1870BC (Turn 9): Catherine makes contact and wants Open Borders. I agree. Thebes & Memphis both expand population.
• 1840BC (Turn 10): Warrior built in Memphis. Worker started until we can build a War Chariot.
• 1810BC (Turn 11): Another barb appears – two are now sat between Catherine and us.
• 1780BC (Turn 12): Out of gold so science back to 90%
• 1750BC (Turn 13): The Memphis warrior (who was going to explore Catherine’s borders) ends his turn next to a barb hidden in the fog.
• 1720BC (Turn 14): The barb attacks, but our warrior clubs him to death. I reward him with a woodsman promotion
• 1690BC (Turn 15): Warrior healing. We get horse! Memphis switches to a War Chariot, leaving a half built worker.
• 1660BC (Turn 16): Worker starts on the cow next to the horse. Catherine’s scout (which has now wandered across our lands) looks like it must meet the other barb warrior.
• 1630BC (Turn 17): Bronze Working discovered. Preisthood started. Catherine has copper, NE of her cows. We…don’t. Hmm, not sure what to do now. Considered Iron Working, but it’s 30 turns, and I think that’s too much. Also consider fishing, in case there’s some on the other side of the mountains. In the end decide we’ll just have to live without it, and rely on our chariots. Adopt Slavery as there’s no anarchy and it’s no extra cost.
• 1600BC (Turn 18): -
• 1570BC (Turn 19): -
• 1540BC (Turn 20): Catherine appears to the SW of Thebes, with a settler and an archer. Looks like we could have a very close city soon.

At the end then the mighty Egyptian Empire is doing well. Thebes & Memphis have populations of 4 & 3 respectively, and are set to reach their happiness limits in 3 & 7 turns. Thebes has undertaken the mighty Great Pyramids project, which will be complete in another 17 turns, and Memphis will have built a War Chariot in 3 turns. Memphis has also started work on another worker.

I think we need to churn out one or two extra War Chariots after the current one is built, and then get another Settler built too (maybe WC, Settler, WC in Memphis). We are also going to need to get the worker to link up Memphis & Thebes, as we currently only have the horse in Memphis. Thebes is obviously going to be tied up for a little while, but after that, I think a couple more WCs, and then we may have to look at taking out Catherine. Whether we need archery or iron to help us do this, I don’t know; we probably can’t decide this until she's settled her latest city.

 

[radiopill]

We are going to have some trouble to take her copper city... She had founded it on a hill... She really starts to me... this b#%&$... She needs a good and we must do that before she have spearmen in all her cities...

 

[Frederiksberg]

Well played I was a little worried that those barbs would really bother us. Now we will soon have our first War Charriot and a little later the Pyramids and from then on we are in the drivers seat

Regarding the Pyramids I think it is worth to do a little micro management of Thebes. Right now food surplus is 3 and missing 9 food units before city grows. Lets leave Thebes as it is for one more turn. Then we stop working the stone tile and start working a flood plain instead. This gives 6 surplus food so city grows after second turn. Now Thebes is at maximum size of 5 (due to happyness) so we optimize for production and work the following tiles: stone, plains/forrest, hills/grassland, cow and flood plain. I think this will shave around 5 turns off the production time of Pyramids. In the mean time we could use the worker (after finishing pasture) to build a road down to the stone tile thus connecting Memphis and Thebes. After that the worker could go to the forrest tile 1N of Thebes and chop if we need it. We would have the pyramids in 11 turns or so

Catherine could definitely be a problem! I think, however, that she might be playing into our hands right now. She will probably settle a new city near the sugar which will be easy to capture if we don't wait too long. The main objective of an attack would be to get hold of the copper ressource. Right now we need more intelligence regarding the Russian city in the south west. We can deduce (see Radiopills map posted earlier) that it is located on a hill so it will be hard to capture. It could even go from hard to almost impossible if we allow the Russians to hook up the bronze and build spearmen. This means that speed is definitely a factor. KingdomBrunel has already sent a warrior down in the direction of the Russian city (good thinking!) and it will be extremely interesting to see what kind of defenses he finds. Hopefully we will have the time to build an Army of War Charriots and capture the city. We might consider chopping some WC's in Thebes when the Pyramids are done. Maybe with Police State civic for 25% military production bonus

Poor, poor Catherine

 

[BSouder]

I've got the save. I won't be able to play for 12 hours or so so give me your suggestions.

 

[Hyfrydle]

Well played if it's agreed by all when we have all completed one round we will try 10 turns a piece if this doesn't work we can always revert back. This will mean we take things more slowly and can analyze more thoroughly between rounds.

We definitely need to take that copper if we don't we could be in real trouble. We need the next player to scout the Russian city so we know exactly what where up against so we can plan accordingly. Also keep an eye on that settler we don't want it messing up our plans.

Turn Order

Hyfrydle
Frederiksberg
Mad Professor
KingdomBrunel (Just Played)
BSouder (Up Next)
Drogear
radiopill
Syntherio

Keep up the good work guys

 

[KingdomBrunel]

I was thinking that when we get the Pyramids we should adopt Hereditary Rule until we need the extra happiness or war production bonus of Representation or Police State as it's a cheaper civic.

Otherwise send a warrior off to explore the wild west - there should be one that has just finished healing.

Let's research fishing too - as far as we know there may be copper on the other side of the mountains. Could be a good way to meet other civs too.

 

[Drogear]

IMO Hereditay rule isnt as good as rep, cuz youll need 2 units to get the same effect and that will start to cost maintainance and take up hammers to build em. We might need alot of units but not stationed in every city but in the upcoming front vs russia.

 

[Syntherio]

I see a little problem for the next turnsets:
If I remember correctly we want to build the Oracle with the Great Engineer from the Pyramids. The Oracle should give us CoL, so we found Confucianism.
The Pyramids are finished in 17 rounds, maybe a few turns earlier, according to Frederiksberg. Then it will take 50 (?!) rounds, till we get a Great Engineer in Thebes. 67 Rounds are a long time...
5 turns till Priesthood, then we need Fishing and Writing. We can even research Ironworking, before the Great Engineer pops up. Isn´t that too late for the Oracle or Confucianism? I fear another Civ will make the race..

I agree with Drogear, HR is not a good idea. Rep is better then PS, because of the larger pop-limit we can produce as fast as in a PS - but not only military units.

Hyfrydle is right: The copper is most importent. Memphis must be connected with Thebes and then we need War Chariots from both cities. Meanwhile the warrior can scout the russian city. As long as she don´t have axemen or spearmen, we have a good chance to crush Cathy. Maybe MadProf has done very well with finishing the barracks in Thebes.
In addition to the War Chariots we need a fishing boat, a worker and maybe barracks in Memphis, but thats not urgent.

My suggestions:
Research:
After Priesthood Iron Working

Production:
Finishing Pyramids, then a lot of War Chariots

worker duty:
connect Memphis with Thebes

 

[KingdomBrunel]

Drogear wrote: IMO Hereditay rule isnt as good as rep, cuz youll need 2 units to get the same effect and that will start to cost maintainance and take up hammers to build em. We might need alot of units but not stationed in every city but in the upcoming front vs russia.

I agree in the long term. However, to start with we, only need 1 extra happiness, and Hereditary Rule is cheaper than Representation. So we can run Hereditary Rule, let our cities expand by one, and only change to Representation when we're ready to expand again (which may be a little while if we're going to knock out settlers and workers). This makes use of our Spiritual trait and should save us some gold.

Iron working is still a lot of turns off (30 after BW had been researched). Would be useful though.

 

[Frederiksberg]

What we decide to do should probably depend on the information we get by scouting the Russian city near the copper ressource. If it is heavily defended we might be forced to abandon our attack plans for now. On the other hand, if it is defended by 2-3 archers as expected I think we should press on with the mobilisation and start building WC's in both Memphis and Thebes (After Pyramids). We probably need around twice as many attackers as there are defenders.

It's only a matter of time before the Russians hook up bronze. This leaves us probably only a narrow window of opportunity for the WC rush. We simply cannot capture the city with WC's if it is defended by spearmen! Thus, it is very important that we concentrate all efforts on building WC's as fast as possible if we decide to go for the attack now.

My suggestions based on this analysis:

Civics:
Police State first until happyness limit is reached then HR until happyness limit is reached and then Representation. When the war is over we should consider HR again if we have many units left.

Production:
Lots of WC's. Maybe we should finalize the worker in Memphis first though. Both citys should have emphasis on production (Use city governor or micro manage).

Worker duty:
Connect cities. Start chopping some of the forrests. If this is done during Police State we should get the 25% bonus hammers. Build pasture on 2nd cow tile.

Research:
After Priesthood Pottery. When the workers are done chopping they should have somthing sensible to do and I cast my vote for cottages. We need gold for our expansion. If our WC rush is successful IW can wait a little.

 

[Drogear]

its hard to always get a good overview of the game.

Just want to know if the oracle -> code of law jump is still valid?

I read something about using the Great E for rushin oracle, dot think this is necesary.

I prefer having some minor city building orcale

A very early buildstart makes it easy to stear the build finsish to the alpabeth founding time.

That city isnt really needed for the other "hammer" duitys proven other cities are popped out.

That lone city will eventually get a GP and that one will be a great propbhet to build the holy city that is important to get.

The cost for oracle is so very low that a "not-so-super" city can easly make it, thus free thebes for other wonder, unit or other buildning

 

[BSouder]

I think we have 2 possible strategies right now. Catherine is going to settle a city just west of Thebes before we can really do anything about it whether we like it or not. I suspect that as soon as End Turn is hit she is settling where the she is right now. That hems us in.

Our high level choices as I see them right now are:

A. Go to war with her and take at least the newly founded city and the next one (copper city). To do that probably means our 2 existing cities won't have time for either settlers or Oracle though.

B. Ignore her for now and settle one or both of the good city sites were currently have protected by our borders. This would also let us build the Oracle, but it would waste our UU since by the time we finally get around to declaring war she is almost guaranteed to have copper hooked up.

 

[radiopill]

A lot of thing to discuss as I see...

For the civics, I think we should first grab the Pyr before thinking about that... I'm starting to fear that we lost the pyr, as we already know there is at least one other civ with masonry (judaism founded...).

For the production we should chop rush the pyr, so then we can focalise our production on WarC and take asap the copper city at least, and her new city as well, if possible.
So we need to scout the most of her territory with the warrior.

For the tech path... IW is too long, we should go for pottery, fishing, priesthood, writing and CoL. I think we can research CoL "manually", and grab Civil Service with the Oracle in Memphis (if we can still have the orale...).

So in conclusion, IMO we should go for a war very soon, before our UU are obsolete...

 

[KingdomBrunel]

I've nothing against an early war (lucky I've already played my turns as I'm notoriously bad at them). Cathy already has writing, so there's a good chance she doesn't have BW yet.

Our worker needs to build a road between Thebes & Memphis before we can start to build WCs in Thebes though, so I guess that's the priority. If (via Frederiksberg cunning management) we reduce the build time of Pyramids to 11 or 12 turns, we may well be done before we need to chop. That could let us chop a couple of quick WCs, especially under a police state.

Big risk though isn't it?

 

[Frederiksberg]

With the information we have now I'm also in favor of war as I stated earlier. I think we have too little room for expansion only 2-3 good spots left. I also find that crippling your neighbour civ early is a good strategy - you want him to be weak and eventually to be gone.

It is however crucial that we do not attack with insufficient forces. Patience is necessary until we have built enough WC's to capture the bronze city. We may have to post a WC next to the bronze tile in case the russians hook it up. This would enable us to act fast and unhook it almost immediately. That might start the war prematurely, but the alternative would be to abandon our war plans alltogether.

We have to act fast so I recommend that we postpone plans for building settlers and wonders until the outcome of the war is certain (Finalizing the half built worker in Memphis migth still be sensible though).

 

[radiopill]

It is however crucial that we do not attack with insufficient forces. Patience is necessary until we have built enough WC's to capture the bronze city. We may have to post a WC next to the bronze tile in case the russians hook it up. This would enable us to act fast and unhook it almost immediately. That might start the war prematurely, but the alternative would be to abandon our war plans alltogether.

True, only if cathy as one single copper ressources...

We have to act fast so I recommend that we postpone plans for building settlers and wonders until the outcome of the war is certain (Finalizing the half built worker in Memphis migth still be sensible though).

I agree, the war must be our priority, but if we are succesful in this war, it will really hurt our economy... so we need asap pottery and CoL...
And the worker will definitely help to make pretty road to Cathy for our WarC...

 

[Frederiksberg]

True, only if cathy as one single copper ressources...

Good point! We should use our warrior down south to scout the whole Russian empire