SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

[Conquistador 63]

Thanks for the reply, da Vinci. But in fact a change of plans happened, and I'll still be able to open the newest save this weekend. Probably will still need map screenies from future saves next week.

p.s. I just opened the save. If the GP tech spreadsheet I loaded earlier is right, we'll be able to lightbulb Philosophy (founding Taoism) with the GS. Do you think it is a better option than the Academy?

 

[da_Vinci]

p.s. I just opened the save. If the GP tech spreadsheet I loaded earlier is right, we'll be able to lightbulb Philosophy (founding Taoism) with the GS. Do you think it is a better option than the Academy?

Have to look into that, don't have an opinion right off the bat. If it is very good for trading, then maybe we get another tech surge (and before we piss of folks with our war), which might be a really good idea. Off to look at the tech trading advisor.

Philosophy is 1794 flasks. Academy gains 8 flasks per turn now, maybe 10 per turn later on. So with 479 turns, left, the academy earns maybe 4790 flasks over the life of the game to 2050. But we don't plan to play that long, do we?

Also, the economic principle of discounting would say that future flasks are not worth as much as present flasks.

Phil seems better than academy if the current utility of Phil is high. Is it? Not sure that founding Tao is usefull except keeping others from doing it. But Phil is on path to cossacks, allowing us to bypass divine right. So that is useful. Will phil coax our neighbors to trade with us, or will we just get demands for it as tribute? If I was sure we could trade with it, I would say definitely go for it. But if we aren't able to trade it and have to give it away as tribute, I'd rather have the academy (don't have to tribute that )

dV

Addendum: We will be at 50% science next turn. MC is done in 6. I'd say Civil Service next, to get bureacracy up. Then machinery for maces, then compass and optics if we want that circumnav (and for coastal defense). Compass anyway for the cheap harbors. CS is needed for cossacks, so makes sense that way too. Compass and optics are needed for mass media. Then tech to cossacks.

Is it worth starting Colossus? Mao and Julius have both had MC for a while now, so maybe not.

dV

Addendum 2: The Hamlet dilemma: to whip, or not to whip. Think of whipping as a market for swapping food for hammers. Pop is invested food, units are invested hammers. Whipping is just an adjustment to asset allocation: moves invested food into invested hammers.

What is the whipping exchange rate? At size 7, Moscow's next pop take a total of 51 food to produce. Granary saves half, so a pop costs 26 food in Moscow. One pop gives us 45 hammers, right (or did that go up or down when years per turn shifted)? So the exchange rate is 1.7 to 1.

St Pete at pop 6, next takes 48 total. Pop = 24 food there. Exchange rate is 1.9 to 1. Same for Novgorod.

Rostov is at pop 5, next take 45 total. Pop = 23 food there. Exchange rate is 2.0 to 1 (when you round it up). Same for Yaros.

Yekat is at pop 2, next takes 36 total. Pop =18 food there. Exchange rate is 2.5 to 1. (So THAT'S why dV did all that early whipping at low pop! )

There has been a lot of discussion about not poprushing until at the happy cap. But clearly, the smaller the city, the better the hammer-food exchange rate for a whip. It makes sense to whip away an unhappy pop. It also makes sense to whip away a pop working a marginal tile. Does it ever make sense to whip a pop working a bonus tile?

That depends on situation, what you are building with the whip, and how the whip leverages time. Planning and invasion, or building a wonder, you are racing an AI (to wonder or to troop production), and the gain in time might be worth the loss of commerce and science of whipping a pop on a bonus tile. Also depends how fast you grow back. Or if you are building something that leverages other production in the city (granary, library), might be worth whiping pop off a bonus tile. I am not saying always do it, just saying that never do it should not be a rule either.

I think that whipping galleys and troops to get the India invasion off sooner might justify temporary loss of a bonus tile or two. The galley due in 15 in Yaros should be whipped, then we can deliver 6 units every other turn to Madras (Galley in 4 from Nov plus the one we have). Yaros gets an extra pop in 4, so if we whip for 2 pop now or in 1 or 2 turns, it can get into postion as fast as the Nov galley. Current galley could pick up the axe, then move a warrior to India for last minute recon before the war. Nov galley picks up cats from St Pete and Moscow.

The variation of exchange rate with city size gives us a way to optimize work for a small number of workers. A city with a small number of improved land tiles at present, with a larger food surplus, could be designated a "whipping post". Stop improving tiles in that city, and whip at the bonus tile limit (well below happy cap). This has us whipping at a low pop, for a better exchange rate. It also means that the small number of workers can focus on improving the tiles of the larger cities.

Rostov looks like a good whipping post to me at +7 net food. Whip the lighthouse and it is +8. I might whip a few galleys there even before library, as I worry that Gandhi might recuit Vic or Caesar to his aid. I want to have a coast guard. After the current cottage is built, no more improvements for now unless worker has nothing else to do. Excess pop can work 2/0/2/ coast until next whip.

I would apply whipping post theory to Yekat as well. Might change to lighthouse and whip it ASAP. That makes Yekat +5 net food, then whip library. By not having to use workers in Rostov, we can send one to Yekat to mine and chop. I could see keeping it at low pop and whip ships too, for a while.

With naval construction handled in Rostov and Yekat, land troops come out of Moscow, Novgorod, and Yaros. St Pete could build workers for use in India, unless we capture a bunch there.

A new variation on city specialization, this whipping post thing

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

@ dV and All,
The whipping thing makes sense in most respects, I would just be concerned that as the game progresses, our city sizes start to get dwarfed by the AI's.
London is already size 11 and the #1 city is size 9 with 3 wonders already built. We start to give up our later game advantages if we let our pop fall significantly behind. Also, if we can try to pop rush when we are just under the multiple of 30 thing, we get more overflow for each pop we use. I am still a little confused about the overflow issue, on epic speed, it might be multiples of 45 that we need to evaluate. We can still only whip once every 15 turns or we start to run into cummulative unhappy affects.

If we start to look at specific cities;

Moscow can farm the grass tile on the river and mine the other hill while supporting 1 scientist which will push base production up to 15H/turn.

St Petes is always going to struggle with production, but it is a perfect candidate for consistent pop rushing.

Rostov is a great cottage city, we will want to farm the 1 tile SW of the rice so Civil Service can spread irrigation and we gain a food from the rice. If we cottage the rest, it will become a commerce powerhouse.

Yaroslavl' is a tweener, we can't spread any irrigation past it because of the hills, so it will be a good medium duty production city while producing a decent amount of commerce once we cottage all of the other tiles.

Yekat is kind of the same as Yaros, no irrigation, so cottage everything and mine the hills for production.

Novgorod is already a good production city, but it will be hard for it to get bigger very fast, a good opportunity to pop rush at the "good tile" limit and keep standard production consistently high.

I think it is important to remember that this is not just a Conquest game. We need to pick our spots. Obviously India is the prime immediate target based on the Hindu shrine and its proximity to us.

Also, Philosophy is a great "trader tech", and we can somewhat control how it spreads Taoism, potentially reducing the number religious factions in the game. But an early acadamy has a nice cummulative effect on science and as dV said, we don't have give it away in tribute.

@ Igelkott,
A final thought, I think we need to make sure the first GS comes from Moscow, St Petes will be able to support more scientists overall, so it will get to the 2 GS faster than Moscow can. So I think we nuke both scientists for 1 turn in St Petes to make sure it doesn't get there 1st. You will have to do this before you hit the space bar for the end of the current turn!

 

[da_Vinci]

@ dV and All,
The whipping thing makes sense in most respects, I would just be concerned that as the game progresses, our city sizes start to get dwarfed by the AI's.
London is already size 11 and the #1 city is size 9 with 3 wonders already built.

@ Ronnie1: Fear not, London will be our city eventually !!

I can always count on R1 to point out the cons of what I suggest, which is great!

Did not intend to suggest that we whip like that forever. Just thinking that the faster we can pull off the Gandhi conquest, the better, and to the extent that whipping now speeds that up, it has merit. And while Rostov is an eventual cottage heaven, we can use its +7 food to whip hammers for a while, as the workers beef up Moscow, St. Pete, and Nov. Then they can go cottage up Rostov. That saves us having to spam workers. If we whip a few galleys, we don't have to build a barracks in Rostov, and we get some coastal defense that may deter AI from declaring on us.

And while we whip for a while in Rostov and Yekat, I am fine with Nov, Moscow and St Pete growing. Yaros can grow too, after whipping that galley.

We are 6th in land, 7th in pop. We have 6.9% pop, Mao has 8%; we have 4.83% land, Toku has 7%. Vicky has one less city than we do. Her pop is 24, while our pop is 31. I don't feel we are at a disadvantage in pop or land at this time ...

Is one big city better than two small cities, if they total to the same net pop? I think not, as a city size 10 works 11 tiles (add the city itself), but two cities size 5 work 12 tiles, right? And the two size five cities build next pop for less food. If the large city is out of improved tiles, then the extra pop is not so useful. The one thing a large city gives is the ablitity to concentrate hammers on one item, like a wonder.

Vicky is the logical next target after Gandhi. The army is already there, and after taking the whole island, FP in Bombay is ideal to reduce maintenence. That would give us a nice 16 city empire, and we might not need to take another city after that. Or, go E and SE of Moscow next. We could send out our cossacks to pilage selected enemies for gold, hamstring their growth, PA with Mao, maybe conquer a bunch of cities last minute, and get the diplo win.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

@ All,
dV's last post is right along the lines of what I am thinking. I good size empire, but not too huge to manage.

By dV
Is one big city better than two small cities, if they total to the same net pop? I think not, as a city size 10 works 11 tiles (add the city itself), but two cities size 5 work 12 tiles, right? And the two size five cities build next pop for less food. If the large city is out of improved tiles, then the extra pop is not so useful. The one thing a large city gives is the ablitity to concentrate hammers on one item, like a wonder.

I think more cities add to mainteance costs more than increased pop, but not 100% sure.

I think the most important point of my last post is the micro managing of the GS situation. Igelkott! Please take note! Hopefully before you play!!

 

[igelkott]

Guys, I haven't had time to play and i'll need another day

Ronnie, I'll do as you wish

 

[da_Vinci]

Also, Philosophy is a great "trader tech", and we can somewhat control how it spreads Taoism, potentially reducing the number religious factions in the game. But an early acadamy has a nice cummulative effect on science and as dV said, we don't have give it away in tribute.

Looks like we have a bit more time to discuss this save.

A look at the trade advisor and we see the AI hoarding techs. If phil is in our hands, would that make them loosen up? If we think so, then I'm all for lighbulbing it, as we have more GS on the way, and it is a step toward cossacks. But if they won't trade for it, and all start demanding it, maybe the academy would be better. Anyone have a sense of how these things go?

Seems to me that in 4 turns the Novgorod galley is done, and the Yaros galley could be whipped to arrive at the same time. Two cats come out of St Pete and Moscow in 5 turns, which the Nov galley can collect. So perhaps at turn 8, 9 or 10, we go get Madras? Is there agreement on that as a plan? Land 3 cats and 3 defenders (2 axe, 1 spear?), then bring the swords by the time defenses are down. Sword pillages horses, and we pillage the copper and all he can make are archers.

And do we agree that Civil Service is next tech? Or machinery first as crossbows would really stop Praetorians. And go or no go for Colossus when MC comes in?

dV

PS: Kudos to C63 for placing in the top 40 in GOTM 11 (33 with Diplo win) and GOTM 12 (36 cultural). This adds to a 38 space in GOTM 9 (looks like he skipped GOTM 10) for consistent top 40 performance! Two thumbs up!

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

Agent Tamborine reports that Real Ms and Murky appear to have found a scoring grove similar to ours. It remains to be seen if others behind us in time find an earlier inflection point. footballguys clearly found their burst later than the other three who have inflected.

Murky is building their score on culture, as they are falling off the pace in power. Maybe also building score on pop, if they have whipped less than us.

Real Ms also must have a score built on pop, as they lag in power and their culture slope is now less that ours (so we may catch them in culture).

Perhaps we have traded pop for units and infrastructure. If so, that puts us ahead in timing of conquest. Soon Gandhi falls, and later Victoria. That should provide a nice score boost, that the other contenders may be hard pressed to match!

dV reporting for AT

 

[Ronnie1]

By dV
Seems to me that in 4 turns the Novgorod galley is done, and the Yaros galley could be whipped to arrive at the same time. Two cats come out of St Pete and Moscow in 5 turns, which the Nov galley can collect. So perhaps at turn 8, 9 or 10, we go get Madras? Is there agreement on that as a plan? Land 3 cats and 3 defenders (2 axe, 1 spear?), then bring the swords by the time defenses are down. Sword pillages horses, and we pillage the copper and all he can make are archers.

Sounds like a solid plan! I might take the Horse Archer on the first trip instead of an axe.

By dV
A look at the trade advisor and we see the AI hoarding techs. If phil is in our hands, would that make them loosen up? If we think so, then I'm all for lighbulbing it, as we have more GS on the way, and it is a step toward cossacks. But if they won't trade for it, and all start demanding it, maybe the academy would be better. Anyone have a sense of how these things go?

I don't have a feel for this part. I know I was disappointed when I opened the save and the negotiating screens and got the "WFYABTA" messages. I didn't figure on this coming into play until much later in the game. I suspect it has to do with the "Agressive AI" setting. Founding Taoism still offers us the ability to control the spread of the religion as I said before.

I noticed that HC will trade us Dyes for Spices!

I also don't have a great feel for The Colossus move. I have noticed in past games, wonders that require a pre-req build seem to take the AI longer to get to. Colossus and Hanging Gardens being the 2 that come to mind. I'm also becoming less convinced about the value the wonder itself. We don't seem to be working that many coast/ocean tiles (8 at present count). Can we just cottage spam all the grass tiles for a better effect in the long run? A forge in Moscow will take 180/12 = 15 turns to complete. The Colossus costs 375/2 = 188H/(12*1.25) per turn in Moscow = 13 turns to complete. So we are looking at 28 total turns invested (almost 6 cats or swords). I think I would lean towards cottages and troops.

 

[da_Vinci]

Sounds like a solid plan! I might take the Horse Archer on the first trip instead of an axe.

We are planning to land on and attack Madras from a forested hill, IIRC. An axe will defend at 8.75 while the HA defends at 6. Against melee, the axe defends at 13.1 A spear will defend at 7, against mounted at 14. So I think the HA is the second trip. First wave bombards defenses and defends itself, second wave is the assault force, I would think.

Cottages may turn out to be the better way to go. We could build a forges in Novgorod and Moscow, and if we have not sustained much in losses, and Colossus is not built yet, might give it a run, and take the cash if we miss. Or skip it if we need to build troops. Depends in part on how happy we can be (work enough coast after all the other goody tiles), which may be a reason to have Tao for temples (bulb philosophy).

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

We are planning to land on and attack Madras from a forested hill, IIRC. An axe will defend at 8.75 while the HA defends at 6. Against melee, the axe defends at 13.1 A spear will defend at 7, against mounted at 14. So I think the HA is the second trip. First wave bombards defenses and defends itself, second wave is the assault force, I would think.

Yes, but it may be nice to have an early counter attacker, just in case we can pick off a traveling unit or something!

Also, the turn we declare, the axe will get kicked out of Indian territory, but it will have it's movement turn if it has not already moved. We should have it sitting on the landing site the turn we declare for last minute recon and to assure that the site is not occupied.

 

[da_Vinci]

Yes, but it may be nice to have an early counter attacker, just in case we can pick off a traveling unit or something!

Also, the turn we declare, the axe will get kicked out of Indian territory, but it will have it's movement turn if it has not already moved. We should have it sitting on the landing site the turn we declare for last minute recon and to assure that the site is not occupied.

Different strokes ... I'd rather be sure the cats are safe, and not worry about wandering units.

We have a few turns to pull the axe out of India, and land a warrior for the final recon, before the galleys are ready. That way we can control where the axe is at the time the war begins.

Under open borders, our units can share the same tile, right? So being on the hill won't prevent Gandhi from being there himself. Do you think too much recon will tip him off (how smart is the AI?). Maybe less recon is better?

dv

 

[Joemama]

Yes, but it may be nice to have an early counter attacker, just in case we can pick off a traveling unit or something!

Also, the turn we declare, the axe will get kicked out of Indian territory, but it will have it's movement turn if it has not already moved. We should have it sitting on the landing site the turn we declare for last minute recon and to assure that the site is not occupied.

If we want a last minute scout for the invasion, do we have time to swap out the axeman on the Indian island for the old fog-busting warrior sitting on our island? This would give us our recon without displacing one of our valuble axes.

I did notice we could trade for dye. When I noticed it, our cities were all under their happines caps so I figured we could go a few turns without helping a rival and also wait to see if we could find a better offer elsewhere.

 

[Conquistador 63]

Lots of interesting thoughts posted here since I last checked. I just wish I knew how to get this multi-quote button to work. Since I don't, I'll just try to focus on the main points:

1. Upon further thinking, I like getting Philo from GS. We will have another GS soon who can also build the academy, but we don't know which tech would he offer for us. Also, Philo offers Pacifism for us. If we manage to get a religion acceptable for our diplo block, getting 2x GPpoints (plus the 2x from our leader) would not be too shabby. Besides, I think the AI is less likely to demand tech if our power score is high.
2. I agree CS is a good tech option right now. Not sure we'll get all the required beakers for Philo from GS, though. If not, we should obviously complete it first.
3. As we're in a (mostly) diplo/space game, I say trade every non-strategic resource we can, it helps us boost relations with the AI. So spices x dyes is a go, IMO.
4. Until that western island is ours, I think we shouldn't bother with wonder building. Btw, I am ok with some selected whipping to invade before those AIs get feudalism.

@da Vinci: thanks for your kind words. However, I don't value the score rankings as much as I value the GOTM speed rankings. Not only because I rank higher on them , it's because I am always bored with the end games, so I try to finish them as soon as I can. Btw, I did start GOTM10 but I was upset with some stupid mistakes I made (using the optional HoF Mod being one of them) and didn't care to finish/submit it.

 

[igelkott]

not much time to sum things up, sorry.. I played ca 15 turns, not sure how many exactly.. I played to the plan and took madras losing one suicidal catapult. I pillaged the horses, killing a scout, a horse archer and an archer with a single swordsman (had to upgrade him to woodsman2 for that).

i lightbulbed philosophy (yekaterinburg becoming the sacred city)

i didnt trade it for anything, only MC and monotheism for monarchy and literature with cyrus

i also traded spices for dyes with HC

another GS built an academy in moscow

see you later, kings

 

[da_Vinci]

Super job, igelkott!

The score and power curves continue to rise unabated. An we have enough power in our own game to hopefully make the AI think twice.

We have a trading bonanza before us at this time, before we hit the next turn key.

We can get probably get 100 gold from Mao and 120 from Capac for Monotheism. We can probably get 100 gold from Monte for Monarchy.

Musa has 120 gold and currency he is willing to trade. Might have to give him metal casting or Philos for currency, can probably get the gold for monarchy.

Only trick is that Musa and Capac are at odds. We have already stopped trading with Musa, or so he says, so if we trade first with Capac, that should not affect Musa, then trade with Musa (which might bother Capac, but that trade is already done). Then I might use the gold to upgrade our warriors to axes. Four at 110 each is 440, and we got 460 in the trades. After all, Vicky has an axe in Cantebury.

YIKES! Have you seen the SOD Caesar has in Rome? At least no cats in it. Definitely upgrade warriors to axes, I'd consider pop rushing the galley in Rostov and getting it between Rome and us. Also, consider pop rushing the Barracks in Yaros, and then an axe. Time to reinforce Yekat!!

Maybe we should convert to Hindu, to appease Caesar? Can always switch later to Judaism for Mao. Hindu might get open borders with Toku? Maybe give Caesar a gift?

The battlefield: Be mindful that the coast gives the galley a 10% combat bonus on defense. Don't move a galley with troops to where his galley can attack until the troops can get of in the same turn, so if we are sunk we don't lose them.

Looks like we are assaulting Calcutta. Be sure we don't get stretched too thin in India and invite Caesar to attack. At least until we have a navy to make that difficult. I think I would make pillaging the copper a higher priority than taking Calcutta.

By city...

Moscow: I know R1 wants to grow the pop, so if we move the scientist to the grassland, next pop is in 4 turns, then move him back. Which gives us the option of poprushing the forge if Caesar comes for us. Just want the option available, as we would need axes in a hurry!

St Pete: Doing its thing: scientists and workers.

Novgorod: After this sword, we will have 4, and I would then make axes and a few spears. Let's mine that hill ... we are chopping jungle in Yaros, and perhaps given the Roman stack, more hammers in Nov is more important.

Rostov: I think poprush the galley, overflow to finish the lighthouse, then another galley (wall off Rome in the sea). The pop we lose is only working a coast tile.

Yaros: I would poprush the barracks, then make an axe. Gives up the scientist for a few turns, but that lessens food consumption and pop grows back quickly.

Yekat: I would poprush the lighthouse and overflow into an axe. Yes, even before a barracks. Yekat is an easy target for Caesar.

Madras: if maint is horrible, I might start by poprushing a courthouse.

I think that the threat from Caesar could derail our progress. So we should prepare now as if his attack is coming, so if it does we can repel it with realtive ease.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

@ All,
First things first, we need to keep pumping troops into India. I know dV has a concern about Caesar, but he only has 3 galleys in Rome, and 1 of those is loaded with a settler. The Praetorians are promoted Combat I not CR I. Yekat could probably use another axe and maybe a defensive cat. I would also build walls there! I personally think we need not worry so much about Caesar right now. We are pushing towards maces which will negate his advantage soon.

About trading, working from the bottom up;
Frederick is worthless
Mansa Musa won't speak because we stopped trading witn him
Alex has nothing to offer
Monty will give 100G for Horseback Riding which would also gain us +1 diplo
HC has 120G (Monotheism) and Currency but WFYABTA
Gandhi
Cyrus nothing of value
Victoria 0G, Feud, Music, Curr, but won't trade yet
Hatty see Mans Musa
Caesar has Compass, but WFYABTA
Toku no value
Mao 110G for Monotheism

I agree 100% that pillaging the copper should be a top priority!

By City

Moscow, we need to mine the other hill so we can put it to use after the pop grows in 7t, then it will be base production of 19H/t after forge. Either axes every 3 or HA every 4 turns.

St Petes doing great!

Rostov needs some serious jungle clearing and cottage spamming!

Yaroslavl' is doing fine, I think it needs to produce troops while we are at war.

Novgorod is also the star we predicted, keep pumping troops. I think we need more cats.

Yekaterinburg, Walls might be a nice addition this lonely city after the Lighthouse is complete!

Madras, we will obviously want to pop rush below the starvation limit the turn it comes out of resistence. What to pop rush though? Courthouse, Library, Barracks seem to be the choices, I know there will be enough pop for the Barracks, I think there might be enough pop for the Library, unfortunately I don't think there will be enough pop for the Courthouse, , which would probably be my first choice.

I don't think we should adopt a religion yet, I think the culture we are getting from all of the religions is more important right now. We also don't need to stir up any religious emotions at this point.

We can push the science slider up and run some deficit in the treasury while we are taking cities from Gandhi and trading lower techs to backwards civs for gold.

More troops! More troops! More troops! More troops! More troops!

There's my 2 cents worth,

The current roster order is;

Igelkott - just played
Scout214 - UP NOW
Ronnie1 - on deck
da_Vinci - in the hole
C63 - waiting
Joemama - waiting

Confusion - Injured Reserve until further notice

 

[Scout214]

Coaches,

I have the saved game and am ready to proceed. I won't do so until tomorrow evening to give everyong a chance to weigh in about strategy and direction before I start. Ingelkott left us at turn 197.

 

[igelkott]

no need to worry about that copper, you have an axeman + a spearman in a jungle nearby. the horse archer will be healed next turn in madras. I think that's enough.

 

[Conquistador 63]

Good job, Igelkott!
This week I won't have access to my Civ4 computer, so not much input from me. Just don't forget to keep pumping the cats, we might have a few tough indian nuts to crack!
Also, please don't waste our hard-earned gold upgrading warriors! It is the worst deal we can get in terms of gold*hammers! Much better to produce new troops, disband the older ones if we can't afford them.