SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

[da_Vinci]

Still working on finishing GOTM 13 so have not looked close at the current save.

I think a major choice is whether to fight first, or get the PA first. I think the PA first is a priority. After that, won't Mao just be our stooge, and do anything we ask? Research what we want, fight whom we want, etc.? That has been my experince with team play. Seems that any expansion plan will be that much easier to do in a PA with Mao.

Unless we find a common war to have with Mao, a Defensive Pact will be critical to getting the PA. But declaring war cancels a DP. So we need to decide if we are happy being peacful until we secure the PA, then unleash hell !!! That is my thought at the time, as I think we don't want to risk not getting the PA, and once we get it, anything else we want to do will be that much more accelerated !!

What does everyone think about the choice, DP to PA as job 1, or some warring before we go for that? I guess we have some time to go to war while we are converting Mao, but once he converts and we convert, then I would say we focus on the PA.

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

@all, I just checked the power graph from last save. Mao is #1 by a large margin. Caesar is #2. Under these circumstances, we won't be able to sign a PA with Mao, no matter how friendly we are. His answer will be "we're doing fine on our own".
We'll have to think outside the box on this issue. Maybe bribing him to war when we can (now he has enough on his hands, he says) so he could spend some troops. Maybe giving away troops/techs to a 3rd civ in the future.

With that in mind, now I think we could continue on the path to cossacks and start a war when we are prepared, as Joe has suggested.

Happy new year all!

 

[Joemama]

New save is uploaded.

A quick turn recap:
0. Renegotiate some trades for 7 extra GPT
3. Izzy demands Feudalism, I say No
4. Great Scientist born (I saved him for the next person, couldn't decide to build another acadamy or research part of printing press. Change a few civics.
6. KK asks me to cancel deals with England...NO.
8. Izzy founds Islam in York on our Border. I guess it could have been worse and been Canterberry.
9. A very eventful turnset. Toku asks us to declare war on Spain. I think a bit and decide to go for it. WE ARE IN A FAKE WAR AGAINST SPAIN. It helped relations with a future voting buddy. Mao converts to Hindu!!! It only took one of his cities to be converted. We also convert soon after.
10. Our explorer got to a hut for 39 freakin gold.

With a bit of anarcy my turnset, I did not get much built. There is still some gold left for upgrades (Galleons anyone?) or for more deficit research. I am looking forward to more discussion later. My vote is to build up for a war on Egypt. You will notice I redeployed some of our troops to move in that direction.

 

[Ronnie1]

Nice Job Joemama!

It seems like I've been away for a long time, I'm looking at the save, and feel like I have no idea what's happening. My first thought is that Victoria needs to let the impoverished English peasants join the illustrious Russian Empire! 6-7 Cats and 6-7 Maces would make her life very difficult. I also see that Caesar is sitting on 3 world wonders including The Colossus. Of course both of those civs share our religion and don't seem to be logical targets at this point. If Vicky changes to Islam, I think we should take her out. Are we going to head for Democracy and then change to US and go for a cottage spam strategy? Are we heading for Cossacks and military push? It seems like we don't have a solid plan at this point, maybe it's just me.

The current roster order is;

Joemama - just played
Igelkott - UP NOW
Scout214 - on deck
Ronnie1 - in the hole
da_Vinci - waiting
C63 - waiting

Confusion - Injured Reserve until further notice

 

[igelkott]

hi all and a happy new year, GKs

I'd like to play next weekend, I won't have time until then. Ronnie, can I switch places or do you want to discuss the strategy? I guess I'd like some more guidance from the team

 

[da_Vinci]

I am wrestling with a video freeze up problem in GOTM 13 (wants to freeze every 10 turns now ) so have not kept up much with the SGOTM.

(Same problem that I had in GOTM 11 that got me a "warning" message. Might potentially mean that I'd have to sit out the 1900's in this SGOTM if I can't get it solved, as it seems to occur on big maps when there are hundreds of units in play.)

But a few thoughts ...

Are we sure that Mao won't make a PA if he is score leader? In the famous paired test game with Scout214, Frederick was score leader (not sure about power) and he paired up with Musa. Or is it just that he won't pair with a human if he is score leader?

If we are not completely sure the PA is off the table, maybe we should pursue it and test it out?

Do we have a national wonder strategy? Might be time to start thinking about how to put them to use. In GOTM 13, I did not pay attention to that soon enough. One of them doubles GP points in the city. Add that to caste system (unlim art, sci merch), and the civic that give each city a free specialist, and representation (extra science per specialist) and the effects are synergistic. I am just begining to see these synergies of civic combinations. We should have a plan regarding that.

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

I have just looked at the last save, and here are my 7¢:
- let's get open borders with Toku, he's willing. He is also #3 in power, so maybe with our help he could take Mao's lead in the future.
- on the PA topic, from what I read, it is the power rating that matters, not the score.
- unless Vic goes Islam, I'd leave her alone. Instead I'd go for Hattie's pyramids. Our friends also dislike her. Even then I might wait for those cossacks, not sure.
- let's convert (main) our non-hindu cities so they can enjoy whatever religious civic benefit we run.
- let's go meet the American leader if the caravel has nothing better to do.
- don't forget to build the courthouses in the cities still missing it.
- I agree with Ronnie1. We have to discuss and review our grand strategy. I'm in for it.

p.s. @ da Vinci: wish you luck with the hardware issue. I am an almost complete dummy in these matters but let me know if you think I can help you.

 

[Scout214]

Coach Ronnie,

You want me to jump in and take the next set or wait for strategic discussion? I am ready to go if you want.

I'm in Colorado, with all the snow. Wreaked havoc with schedules lately but the smoke is clearing (roads are getting plowed, airport is open again).

An alternative to PA with Mao that we should keep in mind is one with Caesar. Also Hindu, also near the top.

dV, have you gone to the lower right corner of our screen and turned off all the memory consuming stuff it loads at startup that you don't need? If not, do that before you jump into Civ. How much memory do you have in the box? A gig? Should be enough but max it out if you can do however big it can get on your motherboard.

 

[da_Vinci]

dV, have you gone to the lower right corner of our screen and turned off all the memory consuming stuff it loads at startup that you don't need? If not, do that before you jump into Civ. How much memory do you have in the box? A gig? Should be enough but max it out if you can do however big it can get on your motherboard.

I have 2 Gig of RAM and 256 of dedicated video memory in addition. I think this thread stuck in device drive problem is purely a video thing, not a system RAM thing.

I have dialed back to the lowest video settings on the Civ 4 options, and played 12 turns ok (after a video freeze at 1914 and again at 1922 ). In 1922 I had 234 units, and I am sure that 3 other AI had similar, for about 1000 units in the game. It is insane !

I have almost twice the base score as nearest AI, but am 3% short of the domination total I need for land. If the low settings solve the crash issue, I may go for the cow .

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

@ Scout,
Go ahead and swap positions with Igelkott if you want to. I think we still need to have a little more strategy discussion before we get ahead of ourselves though. I'm thinking I like the beeline to Mass Media and trading for everything else. The techs on that path are worth boatloads in trade value.
I have also become a believer in the Universal Sufferage civic matched with the cottage spam strat. But, there are a lot of options at this stage of the game.

 

[Scout214]

@ Ronnie
I'll bet the download presently but await further discussion before I proceed. Thanks.

@dV
Go to your Start menu and select Run. In the run box type 'dxdiag' and run it. Select the tab for Display. Then run the two tests, Test DirectDraw and Test Direct3D. Just a precaution to eliminate possibilities. I sent an email to Carl to ask his input about your memory problem. While the surface issue may be video memory it could be a RAM memory overload. Stay tuned.

 

[Conquistador 63]

@ Scout,
Go ahead and swap positions with Igelkott if you want to. I think we still need to have a little more strategy discussion before we get ahead of ourselves though. I'm thinking I like the beeline to Mass Media and trading for everything else. The techs on that path are worth boatloads in trade value.
I have also become a believer in the Universal Sufferage civic matched with the cottage spam strat. But, there are a lot of options at this stage of the game.

I'm a cottage-spam lover too. But in this game I think we've taken the farm+specialist approach. And quite frankly, it seems to be working well for our goals. The next few GS's shall be used to lightbulb (partially) techs in the beeline to Mass Media: Printing Press, Sci Meth, Physics.

I am also for a beeline to Mass Media. But I think a decision was made to detour to get cossacks. We're a few turns away from Nationalism. The logical step is to go for MilTrad after that (it also allows DP), and maybe Gunpowder, if it is needed to build Cossacks (I think it is but not sure).

Unless someone strongly disagrees with the points above, I am ok with Scout214 playing his turnset.

 

[da_Vinci]

Before we rush ahead with more turns, do we have a strategy and the corresponding tactical detail? Or do we have consensus only on vague generalities? We are not behind in turns completed, and we are in a great position to move forward, so lets plan this in detail before we proceed?

Mao Toku and Caesar are all hindu. Vicky and Capac too, but less attractive. Toku is even pleased. Any of the first 3 would be a reaonable PA. So getting one should be a priority.

Are we the sole owners of astronomy and education? We get a university building bonus. Observatories are available. We have a chance to beef up science in frastructure. Have we got clear plans for city specialization?

Also, do we trade these? We could get 250 gold from Mao for educ, and theol from Vicky for it I think (which might be trade bait for others).

We might want our neighbors to keep up in tech, as than makes trading ops. The winner of the competition (rather than the game) may be the one whose world as a whole teched the fastest. To that end, maybe gift some techs to Toku, especially if that makes him friendly and a PA candidate? Or at least trade when he gets cash (better idea).

Cossacks require gunpowder, so also would need guilds. So I think we beeline to sci meth (on path to mass media and tells us where the oil is) so printing press next, then decide if we detour to communism and if needed for DP, mil trad. It is four more (expensive) techs to mass media after sci meth, and that will go faster if we have a PA. Maybe physics first for the free GS, then go for the PA? Or do we think that we can trade for Mil Trad later? I'd like us to be the first to have PA ability, so we don't get scooped on the best partners.

Wonders ... any interst in Angkor Wat? I never build it. National Epic for +100% GP points should go somewhere. Hermitage is avail after Nationlism, and we might save that for the FP city if it needs cultural protection. No level 4 unit so no Heroic epic or West Point (after Mil Trad) yet.

Wars ... Hatty is a good target. Vicky is a potential second tier PA, and on good terms with other PA candidates.

We may be closer to consesus than I first thought ... do we agree on

War with hatty?
Print press / Sci meth next techs?
trade educ for gold and theology?

If so, then we should get a consensus on city specialization, to know where to build universities and observatories, and the national wonders.

Once that is done, we can play on.

dV

 

[Joemama]

I think some time for coming to a consensus on strategy is warranted this week. In my single player games, this is the time I usually start to wander, so I am looking forward to implementing a plan.

Wars –Don’t forget we are currently at war. I would hate for a Spanish Armada to sneak up on us. Hopefully we can sue for peace soon. I am up for a war with Hatty as soon as possible. We don’t have open borders, so recon will be difficult. Anyone have an idea of a stack needed? I believe 6-7 cats and 6-7 maces was mentioned for a war with Vicky. Sprinkle in a couple of longbows for city defense and a pike or two and I think that should give us the pyramids at least. We will also need at least 2, probably 3 or 4 Galleons. I have one under construction and we could upgrade several of our galleys. If we are not going to upgrade them, I would consider disbanding some to save on maintenance.

Tech – I am a bit hazy on the exact tech path, but I think going for cossacks first, then UN would be a way to go. I have saved a scientist for lightbulbing. I would start trading away techs for whatever we can get for them. We need our buddies to help fill in our gaps.

Cities – I don’t have the save in front of me, but I started the Heroic Epic in one of our cities. I think the National Epic will go in St. Petersburg. Should we try to generate a great engineer for the U.N.? Maybe start running one or two engineer specialists in a hammer city.

Diplomacy – I think cultivating relationships with our Hindu friends is the way to go. From there we can see where the P.A. chips fall. It looks like we have several possibilities. A couple of Holy Wars can only help this cause.

 

[Conquistador 63]

I agree with Joe on all his ideas - maybe with the exception of upgrading galleys to galleons. If we can plan ahead, build new units/disband older ones.

I might be repeating myself, but on the micro level:
. we should get those Courthouses up on every city, which should be converted to Hindu for the bonus, and the Universities and Observatories in the best commerce ones.
. the exception is the shrine city: let's build a market in it ASAP (and later bank/grocer), it's our cash cow. As we can't raze cities, if we enter another war our maintenance costs will soar and the research rate will have to be lowered.
. we shouldn't bother to build any world wonders at this point. National wonders: HE (is already in progress) and maybe NE and Oxford (when available). After HE built, that city should produce troops nonstop, for maximum efficiency.

@ da Vinci: nice ideas too, especially on the point of leveraging world research rate. I am also for trading tech. Only point I might add: Guilds is nice (for Banking), but not needed for gunpowder, as we already have Education.

 

[da_Vinci]

I might be repeating myself, but on the micro level:
. we should get those Courthouses up on every city, which should be converted to Hindu for the bonus, and the Universities and Observatories in the best commerce ones.

Do we put a monastery in RINdia (Russian India) or keep ferrying them in from the Motherland?

Agree that we max cash buildings with the shrine.

we shouldn't bother to build any world wonders at this point. National wonders: HE (is already in progress) and maybe NE and Oxford (when available). After HE built, that city should produce troops nonstop, for maximum efficiency.

If we want a GE for the UN, maybe put NE somewhere that can build the GE? GE points seem to be hard to come by, so what other national wonders give them (I think West Point does) and what other buildings do? Any world wonders that do, that we might be intersted in (like ... Pyramids? Save NE for the Pyramid city when we get it? This is why the detailed plan is critical) Any techs give a free GE?

We can build the FP in Egypt to reduce maint cost eventually. In GOTM 13 I did not pay attention to culture and a lot of cities I took on the borders of established empires have revolted, and my FP city is now on the border of my next (and last) war to come. If we think that culture conversion is a risk for the FP city, Hermitage might go there as well. Although I think in this game that won't be an issue.

Where is HE started? I usually put Oxford in capital and run Bureacracy to leverage that. Any other ideas for Oxford?

@ da Vinci: nice ideas too, especially on the point of leveraging world research rate. I am also for trading tech. Only point I might add: Guilds is nice (for Banking), but not needed for gunpowder, as we already have Education.

Don't need guilds for Gunpowder? Won't be the first or last time that I have misread the tech tree. I think it is less than intuitive. If I knew that, I would have gone for education much sooner in my solo games! Something new for GOTM 14.

After nationalism, then we are just two techs away from Cossacks? Which is more important, the huge advantage that unit would give us, or a faster route to PA and UN? I am guessing we can whack Hatty without Cossacks, and unless there is additional prey (and perhaps not if no razing), maybe no need to rush to Cossacks (oh, why isn't this a domination or conquest game !!! ) It would be fun to watch Cossacks blow away macemen!

Do we have a monopoly on Astronomy? If so, then we have the most powerful vessel on the sea (for now), and we can make some to scout Hatty (or even send missionaries as scouts?). So while we wait to make peace with Izzy, we can build the strike force for Hatty. If we think that cossacks would be available before we wipe her out, then if that accelerates the conquest maybe that is worth while. So maybe get Mil Trad (I bet we need that DP eventually) and Gunpowder after all, then go for Sci Meth, Communism and the UN? Cossacks would make us pretty invincible for a long time. Decisions, decisions ...

dV

 

[Scout214]

I think that we may need Cossacks to conquer some of the non-Hindu nations in order to secure enough votes to win in the UN.

If there is a premium on getting to UN before anyone else in our game, then maybe that should be the highest priority. If we can do at least one conquest (Hatty) without Cossacks, then we can go for UN in the meantime and follow with Cossacks later. The risk there is that other nations will build sufficient military technology to mitigate against the value of Cossacks because it took us so long to get them.

It's probably good to concentrate our trading with other Hindu powers and focus our ire against 'Hindon'ts.' We can probably count on Hindus to vote for us in the UN and not the Hindon'ts.

If Toku is the path of least resistance to PA then we need to consider that. Is it possible to get PA w/o DP? If not, there's another reason to get Cossacks first. If we need to have a DP in place for a while (or shared war) before one of them will PA with us, then there's a priority on getting Mil Trad early.

 

[da_Vinci]

Scout214 makes me think about the right time sequence for events. If we can't engineer a shared war, then a DP is required for a PA. So the sequence might be

Make peace with Izzy while researching Mil Trad and gunpowder

Conquer Hatty with maces cats and maybe Cossacks at the end.

Try to establish DP with a PA candidate (no more wars can be declared once we do that, or it breaks the pact).

Tech to communism, and set up the PA.

Tech to UN (aided by PA parter) and kill anyone who won't vote for us.

How easy is that?

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

Heroic Epic is under construction in Novgorod and should produce nothing but troops as C63 already said. If we are building new galleons, we can send the galleys towards Spain to pillage some sea resources and make sure we don't miss any incoming Spanish troops. We need to contact the Americans and determine if they might be a possible PA also. My thoughts on the cottage spam strat is that we already have many cottages because of the lack of fesh water early in the game. I don't think we should alter St Petes as it is a good science center as is. Oxford in Moscow makes sense as it has the most commerce and probably always will. I think we need to build a few more defensive units for the homeland, no need to press our luck to much. I like the idea of trading techs to speed up the "world" as a whole, but we need to be careful about trading away military techs to potential targets. They need to earn those if possible. And on the same note, if we can gain any military techs through trade, much better for us! I'm still holding a grudge against Vicky for plopping that city on our shores. I hope she converts to Islam so can give her a slap!! Courthouses as C63 said are a must as well. If we whip some CH's and overflow the hammers into Universities, we get the double hammer bonus from our leader trait. Universities in all high commerce cities of course. The free scientist from SM makes that seem like another reason to head down that path earlier rather than later. As someone else said, we can't sign defensive pacts while we are at war, and all pacts are cancelled if "we" declare, so we need to plan a little if we are going after someone else right away. My thoughts for now!!

 

[Joemama]

First, great discussion so far!

As far as spreading our religion, since we have organized religion now, I don't think we need monastaries to span missionaries. We can and should create missionaries in Rindia without bothering the home island.

If we can destroy Hatty without Cossacks, and then plan a time for peace, what is the rush to tech to Cossacks? It seems to me that other techs may be more beneficial. (Note: A problem I usually have when I start warring is I have a hard time stopping. If this were my single player game, I would tech to Cossacks and after finishing off Hatty would have a bunch of units on that continent with nothing to do except declare on Saladin. After whacking Saladin, I would move on to the next target. This method would ensure us lots of votes and hopefully a few shared wars, but without being able to raise bad cities, it could cripple our economy.) Anyway to conclude my ramble, I think if we beeline to Cossacks, we need to plan to use them. If we see peace as the Cossacks would come online, I think we may want to throw in some U.N. techs first.