SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

[Ronnie1]

Reason #1
Toku will mass uprgrade all of his troops once he has the right techs. It only costs the AI something like 15% of a human to upgrade units. I think we just need to focus on getting the right techs to give to Toku.

Reason #2
We are 1 turn from Biology, we will start to see an increase in our pop numbers. We can also trade Biology to whoever is voting for us to increase their pop as well.

I think Joemama should play thru T348 and then pause to see what Dipomacy options are available.

I also think we may want to keep going with about 5 turns per set as much is happening in shorter intervals this late in the game.

 

[da_Vinci]

Reason #1
Toku will mass uprgrade all of his troops once he has the right techs. It only costs the AI something like 15% of a human to upgrade units. I think we just need to focus on getting the right techs to give to Toku.

That would explain how Mao could find the cash for his mass upgrade. 30 gold instead of 200 gold to upgrade makes a huge difference!

I still think we might want to spam pikes and turn research to 0 in case we need some troops to gift to Toku (if he is slow on the upgrade). If we don't need to gift them, we upgrade them to grens which get 50% vs rifleman (and a redcoat is a British rifleman, right?). 18 for a gren vs rifle, Redcoat is 20 vs gren or cossack. So grens and cannons in enough numbers could get Vicky, and once a city or two of hers falls, she is out of places to make reinforcements.

In fact Toku has chemistry, so why hasn't he upgraded to grens? Is he waiting for rifling? Or is he waiting for cash (only has 40 gold). Maybe we need to gift him some cash and see what he does with it. We could get replacable parts from Cyrus, for chemistry perhaps, then get rifling from Mao for anything other than chemistry (chem would raise Mao's power).

Then next turn (with research at 0) give cash to Toku, see if he upgrades. If he does to gren, then just feed him cash. If he won't upgrade to gren, then give him rep parts and rifling to see if he will upgrade to rifles.

If he won't upgrade even to rifles, then we either feed him troops or abandon PA with Mao it would seem.

Reason #2
We are 1 turn from Biology, we will start to see an increase in our pop numbers. We can also trade Biology to whoever is voting for us to increase their pop as well.

World pop is just under 1000, so it takes 10 pop to gain 1% (more than that, as 10/1010 is just under 1%). Need some conquest to get this done fast.

Interesting twist is whether to declare on Toku if we get the PA with Mao, to make our voting rival smaller. Or, we could let him eat Izzy, then to war with Toku and that might be the only war we need. But war with Toku does risk negatives with some of our Hindu friends.

I think Joemama should play thru T348 and then pause to see what Dipomacy options are available.

I also think we may want to keep going with about 5 turns per set as much is happening in shorter intervals this late in the game.

I think that frequent consultations makes sense at this juncture.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

One of my favorite late game wonders is The Eiffel Tower. It puts broadcast towers in all cities. This is really helpful when you are warring late in the game. The broadcast towers allow 2 artist specialists, which if combined with any other "culture" device or civic or the culture slider, allows the city to expand its cultural boundaries the same turn it comes out of resistance. This is helpful in that the native population won't starve because they can't work all available tiles. In this particular game, keeping our pop as high as possible is one of our keys.

When we are able to get our PA, we will be able to reduce science for massive amounts of gold per turn. At 10% science right now, we would be making about 450G/T. With the effects of The Kremlin in play (-33% gold) to rush, we will be able to buy a number of wonders before the AI's can get to them.

As I said before, we really need to build the National Epic soon to maximize our Philosophical trait. And we will want to build Ironworks when it becomes available.

I know we are really focused on a Diplo win, but I think we need to keep the option of the spaceship open. I still believe that we can "fight" our way to Diplomatic vctory. If our attempt fails however, it would be nice to have a fall back plan.

Looking at our top production cities!! Base production #'s look like this
Moscow - 20 Gets a bonus for running Bureaucracy (50%)
Memphis - 18
Thebes - 17
Novgorod - 16 Bonus for troops (100%)
Yekat - 14

Only Thebes has alot of room to boost production with many unused mines. I would like to see Thebes begin on The Eiffel Tower after the current Cossack.

If we are lucky enough to get another GE, I think it should be used to build Ironworks in Novgorod. A big boost for troop production and a future Spaceship part builder.

Edit:

I see there is a CR3 Mace in a galley off Delhi. That is one unit that we will want to upgrade and try to protect. CR3 Genadiers will be about 90% against a Rifleman with CG1. We still need to get a unit to level 5 for West Point!

 

[da_Vinci]

As I said before, we really need to build the National Epic soon to maximize our Philosophical trait. And we will want to build Ironworks when it becomes available.

Only Thebes has alot of room to boost production with many unused mines. I would like to see Thebes begin on The Eiffel Tower after the current Cossack.

If we are lucky enough to get another GE, I think it should be used to build Ironworks in Novgorod. A big boost for troop production and a future Spaceship part builder.

Edit:

I see there is a CR3 Mace in a galley off Delhi. That is one unit that we will want to upgrade and try to protect. CR3 Genadiers will be about 90% against a Rifleman with CG1. We still need to get a unit to level 5 for West Point!

Ok, Eiffel in Thebes, but do we prefer Ironworks or West Point in Novgorod? Already has Heroic Epic, so can only fit one more Nat Wonder. Might want ironworks in a city that can pump out ships after a drydock, so Nov spams the land troops and the other city spams battlehips. Don't forget that ships can take down the defenses of coastal cities! Reduces the number of cannon/artillery needed.

Nat Epic seems to make sense in St. Pete if we can figure out how to get it built in that hammer poor place.

Back to getting Toku's power above Mao, do we agree with the idea I floated of 0% sci for the next 6 turns, send cash to Toku and see if he upgrades to grens, if not, get rep parts (Cyrus ... or Musa but more diplo negatives trading with him) and rifling (Mao) and give to Toku. We might as well execute the trades right now, as both Capac and Caesar are giving us the "fear you are too powerful" line, and others might adopt that stance soon.

And do we agree as a backup to spam some pikes (to upgrade and give to Toku if needed)? Dehli could make one in 6 if we work two priests; Bombay in 7 if we work the engineer; Madras can make a gren (working on it now) in 6 if we work the engineer; Yaros is working a gren in 13 but a pike takes 9, 7 if we work a couple of citizen specialists for the hammer for a short while. Pikes in Nov come out every 3, longbows every 2 (but only upgrade to rifles at more gold consumed).

Caesar's power is climbing, looks like he has been upgrading to rifles as well. Caesar has chem, but has not upgraded to grens. So it seems that the AI only likes to mass upgrade to rifles, so maybe we just put rifling in Toku's hands even before we hit end turn? Then feed him cash and watch him climb past Mao? I need my vindication! (of the decision not to PA with Capac, which may have been a mistake )

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

It will take a 2 turns to get Rifling. You can only trade 1 tech "level" per turn. If we get Replaceable Parts now, we can get Rifling next turn. It will work the same way going to Toku. He will have to have all of the pre-reqs for 1 turn before we can give him Rifling.

Looking back, I think our big mistake may have been not realizing that Liberalism and Free Religion would cause that many issues. I still think we are in pretty good shape. If we can get Toku Rifling and/or we are wrong about Mao not doing a PA while in the #1 position, all is good.

I just hope we don't have to go to space, that will be a long endeavor!

My question right now is, where are all of Toku's troops? I hope he has many headed for Izzy, because you can't see very many on the map.

Back to getting Toku's power above Mao, do we agree with the idea I floated of 0% sci for the next 6 turns, send cash to Toku and see if he upgrades to grens, if not, get rep parts (Cyrus ... or Musa but more diplo negatives trading with him) and rifling (Mao) and give to Toku. We might as well execute the trades right now, as both Capac and Caesar are giving us the "fear you are too powerful" line, and others might adopt that stance soon.

I think we trade with Cyrus as you said and give to Toku this same turn.
Then we can trade with Mao for Rifling next turn and give to Toku same turn.
I hate to run 0% Sci and give away all the cash but it seems like the fastest way to get what we want in the short run.
We may still want to run 10% Sci, as this little bit will still keep all of research buildings working with a small amount of commerce. Also it may not take Toku that much gold to upgrade all of his troops.

Nat Epic seems to make sense in St. Pete if we can figure out how to get it built in that hammer poor place.

NE is a 54T build in St Petes. I think Moscow is a more viable location. It has the most GPP's without working any specialists, so when you add in the specialists that can be worked, it is already the top GPP producer.

Ok, Eiffel in Thebes, but do we prefer Ironworks or West Point in Novgorod? Already has Heroic Epic, so can only fit one more Nat Wonder. Might want ironworks in a city that can pump out ships after a drydock, so Nov spams the land troops and the other city spams battlehips. Don't forget that ships can take down the defenses of coastal cities! Reduces the number of cannon/artillery needed.

The only other good choice for IW is Thebes. The other option would be West Point in Thebes, or maybe both IW and WP in Thebes. Thebes is in a great location, I wish it had been ours sooner.

I haven't forgotten about Vicky either, I still have my eyes on her as well!!!

 

[da_Vinci]

It will take a 2 turns to get Rifling. You can only trade 1 tech "level" per turn. If we get Replaceable Parts now, we can get Rifling next turn. It will work the same way going to Toku. He will have to have all of the pre-reqs for 1 turn before we can give him Rifling.

I think we trade with Cyrus as you said and give to Toku this same turn. Then we can trade with Mao for Rifling next turn and give to Toku same turn.

Maybe can't trade two levels with same AI in the same turn? I would still check after the Cyrus trade for rep parts to see if Mao will trade Rifling in the same turn. Maybe not, but no harm in looking. Even if we have to wait until second turn to give Toku rifling, I'd get it in our hands if we can before Mao tells us we are too powerful.

My question right now is, where are all of Toku's troops? I hope he has many headed for Izzy, because you can't see very many on the map. !!!

That would be a problem, because they have to be in his cultural border to upgrade, don't they? All the more reason to move our low level maces toward Toku, and pump out the pikes, in case we have to gift him a handful of troops to put him over the top.

Of course, if all of his troops have left home, then he could be a target to consider after the PA!

NE is a 54T build in St Petes. I think Moscow is a more viable location. It has the most GPP's without working any specialists, so when you add in the specialists that can be worked, it is already the top GPP producer.

Good point. We could make a temple in 3, and running a priest will add hammer, if that speeds thing us a bit.

The only other good choice for IW is Thebes. The other option would be West Point in Thebes, or maybe both IW and WP in Thebes. Thebes is in a great location, I wish it had been ours sooner.

If Thebes will make more hammers than Nov, then maybe IW there, so Nov can make troops uninterupted. Then WP can go in Nov. And with a drydock in Thebes, well, hello naval supremacy! Could be very useful on this map. Thebes will be helped by biology, but may need one more grass farm to support all those hills. Maybe on that NW cottage, before it grows too big and painful to replace!

I haven't forgotten about Vicky either, I still have my eyes on her as well!!!

I am all for going for her once we conclude the PA. I am not scared of her redcoats: soften them up with collat damage cannons, and our grens and cossacks can still take them. No way she can replace her losses fast enough (unless she drafts, I suppose, but AI does not seem to do that much IMHO).

It won't come to space. Since I am weak in the middle game, I have a lot of experience now in 20th century warfare since I seem to always be playing that long in GOTM! Airlifting troops to other continents, fighter and bomber attacks, and the ideal striker brigade (one gunship, one tank, two SAM infantry to minimize collateral damage and use up enemy artillery). Give me artillery and railroads and I can defend against anything. Give me artillery and infantry (and later, tanks and gunships) and I can capture anything!

And we must not forget to give Toku the money to do his upgrades. He is pretty broke at the moment.

dV

 

[Joemama]

Sorry guys, I am going to need a skip this turn. I thought I could squeze it in tonight, but RL will not allow that to happen.

 

[Ronnie1]

Per Joemama's request to skip this turn,

The current roster order is

Joemama -skipped
Scout214 - UP NOW
Ronnie1 - on deck
da_Vinci -in the hole
Conquistador63 - waiting

Igelkott - Temporary leave of absence

Confussion - Injured reserve until further notice

@ Scout214,
Hope you have been keeping up with the thread! The main thing for your turn is to get Replaceable Parts from Cyrus and GIVE it Toku before you go to the next turn. If you can get Rifling from Mao this same turn, GIVE it to Toku as well. As soon as you can get Rifling from Mao, give it to Toku. IIRC you should be able to trade for Democracy from Mao as well. Also reduce the Sci slider to 10% and be ready to give cash to Toku after we have given him Rifling. Keep checking the Power Graph and the Diplo screen with Mao for the availability of the PA.

da_Vinci says the PA should be available at T348, why don't you play to that and pause for further discussion!

If something goes awry with the Rifling deal with Mao, you may want to pause earlier for a quick consult.

Good Luck!!!

 

[da_Vinci]

Agree with Ronnie1's advice for the next set of turns! Especially givng the gold after Toku has rifling. No point letting him spend it on something else.

I would add making some pikemen in a few cities in case we need to gift them to Toku after upgrades (in case he doesn't upgrade enough on his own). We can always upgrade them and use them on Vicky!

If it is true that he can upgrade for 15% of what we can (30 for an upgrade from pikes to grens vs our 200), then do we want to give him money in smaller increments (if we get 400 to 500 a turn with slider at 10%, maybe still just give him 300 (ten upgrades) and see what he does with it)?

Everyone is holding their breath for turn 348 and the 40th turn of the DP with Mao ... will the not long enough excuse go away, only to be replaced with "I am doing fine on my own"? We will see if I get a stay of execution, or if the lever gets pulled on my trap door?

dV

 

[Scout214]

Have read threads, will proceed to Turn 348.

I feel like the team rookie being sent up to the plate in the bottom of the 9th with two out in the seventh game of the World Series...

K-nock K-need

 

[Scout214]

Have a look at the UN Vote guys. Odd that so many with whom we are +11 voted for Mao...

Still 2 turns from the first chance to get Mao into PA. Plan is working re Toku so far. He spent initial money to upgrade to Frigates but is now getting Riflemen. Is about halfway to catching Mao in Power.

 

[Scout214]

Have a look at our relations relative to Mao's. Ones who are Friendly with him voted for him when our relations with the same nation are only Pleased. There are other subtle nuances, such as with Saladin. This ain't working the way we anticipated.

 

[Scout214]

By pumping money (and no troops so far) into Toku, he upgraded enough troops to pass Mao (barely) on the power graph by the beginning of Turn 348.

[/B]MAO AGREED TO A PERMANENT ALLIANCE!!!![/B]

Planning to run a couple more turns until we get the next UN vote to see what happens.

 

[Scout214]

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Gypsy_Kings_SG003_AD1640_01.Civ4SavedGame

Ready for the next player to go at Turn 350.

Turn 342:
Traded Communism to Cyrus for Replaceable Parts

343:
Got Biology, Started to Research Steel
Traded Electricity to Mao for Rifling
Gave Repl Parts to Toku

344:
Gave Rifling to Toku

349:
Asked Mao to research Artillery with us.

350: Toku a little ahead of us on UN Vote

 

[Scout214]

1. Kill Vicky.
2. Kill nations who either voted for Toku or abstained.
3. Head research generally in the direction of a Space Victory.
4. Upgrade catapults to Cannons.
5. Create more Russian cities and conquer more cities of other nations but be careful to avoid inadvertantly winning a Domination Victory. We are close (with Mao) on population but not land. Making more of our own cities will get us more votes in the UN, in addition to taking away cities from others.

 

[Ronnie1]

NICE!!!

da_Vinci is vindicated!!

All there is to do now is WIN!!

Logistics

The current roster order is

Scout214 - just played
Ronnie1 - UP NOW
da_Vinci -on deck
Conquistador63 - in the hole
Joemama -waiting

Igelkott - Temporary leave of absence

Confussion - Injured reserve until further notice

I'll have a look at the save and post my thoughts. Let's make sure we have solid plan before rushing into anything silly, like KILLING VICKY!!

 

[Ronnie1]

I'm looking at the 2 votes that scout214 posted. Apparently, AI's don't care about much when voting for Sec. Gen.. The results don't seem to follow much of a pattern IMO. In the 2nd vote, Capac is +12w/us, +4w/Mao and +7w/Toku, and voted for Toku. Alex is +11w/Mao, +12w/us and +11w/Toko and voted Toku. Monty is +6w/Mao, +12w/us, and +9w/Toku and voted for Toku. Louis and Kahn I can sort of understand, but the others??

I'm a little confused about which direction to head at this point. It looks like we can go beat up on who ever we want. Is there a target that makes Diplomatic sense? Do we just consolidate our advantage in techs and race for a spaceship?

I'm waiting for some feedback before I move on!!

 

[da_Vinci]

NICE!!!

da_Vinci is vindicated!!

All there is to do now is WIN!!

Thanks to R1 for the feed Toku techs and cash plan, that got him above Mao in power! Kudos to Scout214 for its flawless execution, that stayed MY execution!

Does space make sense ... look at how many turns it takes just to get to robotics for the space elevator and docking bay ... 8 techs, at about 20 apiece. Maybe half that with Mao, or even only 1/3 ... 8x7=56 turns ... need to know what Mao knocks of research ... 1/2 or 2/3?

Steam power 11, Railroad 15, Combustion 14, Assembly line 19, Industrialism 25, Plastics 27, Computers 21, Robotics 30.

The Fusion 18, Ecology 21.

Then Artillery 3, Rocketry 19, Sattelites 23, Fiber Optics 29, Fusion 30.

300 turns, 150 if Mao cuts in half, 100 if cuts by 1/3. Less as we get more science techs and buildings. Can we launch in 100 turns? Is that the fastest we can do?

How fast can we conquer? We could declare on both Vicky and Musa and get no significant negatives. Several of the techs we need for space get us advanced units, so lets focus on those.

Let's fill our land with cities. A city could be place 3 W on Bombay (in REngland), as well as the two I mentioned earlier. We need 60% of pop with only 50% of land.

And then there is the nuclear option. We are only three techs from satellites, which allows SDI after Manhattan. That is also the short route to Apollo. We could conquer with artillery and Cossacks, build SDI and Manhattan, then nuke the world until our pop is 60%.

Plan: Research artillery, then rocketry (allows gunships, Apollo program), then satellites (SDI after Manhattan). Take out Vicky and Musa (minimal diplo hits). See if we can make a few friends for the votes. At that time, consider conquest vs space vs nukes. This path keeps all options open, and does not lose any time to space. Might ignore wonders for now in exchange for spamming troops.

Voting logic in the next post.

da_Vindicated

 

[da_Vinci]

I am attaching a spreadsheet of the last vote, color coded as to category (friendly, ... furious) with the same colors as the glance screen.

A logic emerges ... Those friendly with you vote for you regardless of number, unless also friendly with the rival. Then higher number wins. See Saladin, and all the green cells.

If someone is annoyed with you, they may vote for a rival that they are only pleased with (maybe a two category gap is the trigger, or maybe it is if worse than cautious will vote for a better than cautious rival). See Louis.

Could be that pleased and +11 will vote for you if rival is not also pleased, but not proven in this vote.

Hope that helps.

I think we add land and cities, max pop per city and city density, research the military techs that are also on the way to space (detour to flight if we go backdoor diplo, as airports to airlift units is critical). Take Vicky and Musa. See how fast we can get to space, vs how fast we can conquer, and think about the nuclear option.

We have a great prophet and two GS ... go for our first Golden Age? Or wait until we have conquered a few more cities?

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

@ dV,
Do you think how they feel about Mao has any impact on the voting?
It seemed that some (Alex and Monty) who voted for Mao over us did not vote for Mao/US over Toku. Does the AI treat other AI differently than the human player?