SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

[Joemama]

I understand we're now set to a super fast research rate. And the fact a few GSs (besides the free one from Physics) might be on their way (I haven't checked) might push us even forward. Dream scenario for a spacerace win.

But if we agreed that a diplo win would be achievable faster than a spacerace win, how far would we need to tech? Have we given up our idea of getting a PA ASAP (basically doubling our research rate) and just beelining to the UN? And while on our way there, work towards pop growth (either by farming and conquest )?

I don't know the stats, but I think the U.N. (Mass Media) will still be able to be researched faster than all of the space race techs. I think the reward of an early diplo vicory outweighs the risk of having to then change gears towards space. However, because of this risk, I think we should not gear all of our cities for max pop (farming and windmilling cottages and mines). We may need those mines and cottages for our cosmonauts.

Wow DV, I am glad you are not my boss with all that whipping. Although it is something I would probably not have done, the whole point of this game is to see other styles of play. Your justification for whipping seemed OK to me.

It looks like you figured out the trade negotiaions. One thing to be aware of is that the GPT available is sometimes misleading. For example, I have had a 4 GPT trade to a rival and saw on the screen they had an additional 1 GPT available to trade. After canceling my existing deal, they only had 3 GPT available. I don't know if this was fixed on a patch, but I know it has been discussed on this site before. Anyway, that is why I usually don't renegotiate for less than 2 or 3 GPT.

Good luck to C63. Try to leave a few Egyptians for me to bash!

 

[da_Vinci]

It looks like I got to play the "bad guy" role this time.

Now seriously, excellent job, da Vinci! Special thanks for the detailed log, I might even forgive you for the ruthless handling of our beloved people!

I knew I would have to justify losing 18 citizens to ... uh ... industrial accidents. Once you think of whipping as a commodities exchange, and the lost pop as industrial accidents, the stigma goes away.

I understand we're now set to a super fast research rate. And the fact a few GSs (besides the free one from Physics) might be on their way (I haven't checked) might push us even forward. Dream scenario for a spacerace win.

But if we agreed that a diplo win would be achievable faster than a spacerace win, how far would we need to tech? Have we given up our idea of getting a PA ASAP (basically doubling our research rate) and just beelining to the UN? And while on our way there, work towards pop growth (either by farming and conquest )?

Physics 11, elec 23, radio 31, mass med 19 (before Oxford, faster after, but remember Oxford only boosts Moscow's science, right? Don't overestimate our research speed).

17 techs to get to robotics !!! (needed for docking bay). 14 techs to fusion (for engine). No question that diplo wins will get the laurels.

GS coming? Not so many. One result of the whipping is that a lot of former specialists are now farmers! There is a method here ... when we take Thebes, we might be able to make is a pure engineer city, add a nat wonder for engineer (West point I think, an odd use of it but think about it), and nat epic for +100% GP points, run pacifism for another +100% GP points, and can we have a GE when we get to MM? Have to not pop other GP first or that raises the points required.

Which might mean we have time to detour to econ, then physics, then communism. By then we have shared a war with Capac, so PA with him (I just can't see how we can get Mao off the power lead). Then, while we research to MM, conquer all non Hindu, running state property. Try to get friendly with as many Hindu for the vote.

We need to have 41% of pop for the first world leader vote, to be sure we don't lose by surprise.

Just my 2¢. I can understand rushing/whipping if that leads us to grow our pop by conquering neighbours, just think we might want to keep focused in our final objective.

That said, I still think we should go for communism next. What do you guys think?

I think I would only whip buildings from now on, and only when the gain exceeds the lost production of the lost pop. A courthouse that cuts maint from 8 to 4 will be worth whipping a pop off an average square, for example. Same for a library that adds 4 science, or a granary, (makes net food worth double) or a lighthouse (a +1 food on a seafood tile is nice accellerator).

I think the detour for econ is worth it, then finish physics, then communism. We need to give the shared war with Capac vs Hatty some time I think, before a PA will be avail, and maybe we need to be at peace to make the PA?

ALSO, WATCH OUR POWER IN THE WAR! We don't want to get so powerful that we can't get the PA!

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

I don't know the stats, but I think the U.N. (Mass Media) will still be able to be researched faster than all of the space race techs. I think the reward of an early diplo vicory outweighs the risk of having to then change gears towards space. However, because of this risk, I think we should not gear all of our cities for max pop (farming and windmilling cottages and mines). We may need those mines and cottages for our cosmonauts.

UN, no question (see above)! I would change to a food economy ONLY after we see that it makes sense in the UN. But after we get UN, tech to anything that grows our pop (looks like just biology, +1F to farms)

Wow DV, I am glad you are not my boss with all that whipping. Although it is something I would probably not have done, the whole point of this game is to see other styles of play. Your justification for whipping seemed OK to me.

It's my "city power" concept. City power = (food produced - food eaten) + hammers + (commerce - maint). To make it more complex, double net food if granary (twice the effect on pop), adjust hammers for bonuses (forge, etc) and adjust commerce for bonuses (science or gold multipliers). So the question for a building rush is, do I have more city power before or after the whip? If the answer is yes, whip is a slam dunk. If not, but the growth rate of the city is faster (e.g. lighthouse when you have a seafood), the city power in say 10 or 20 turns will be higher (a bit harder to visualize at a glance, perhaps).

Easier to calculate marginal changes ... 3 pop lost may only be 1 or 2 net products per pop, so if you get 5-10 extra science or gold, that is more city power and a slam dunk whip (despite all the blooooood ). The fact that pop eats two food makes extra pop not as productive as you might initially think (and why the AI are out-teching me with smaller empires all the time in my solo games ... not anymore! )

Good luck to C63. Try to leave a few Egyptians for me to bash!

Just don't kill off Egypt too fast, and run us into the power lead before we have the PA. Hatty might need to be a two war kill for that reason.

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

Here is a plan, what do we think?

Detour to econ (6 turns). Save the GM for now. Finish Physics (prob 8 turns since Oxford will be done). Will the GS take us close to MM? Then communism to enable the PA with Capac. That is 12 turns now, maybe 8 after Oxford.

Take Thebes, and take one city north and south of it if not too much power. Then may need to make peace if power too close to top. See if we can make a GE in Thebes. West point, 3 Gorges, Mids, pentagon, hang gard, Hagia, ironworks are the GE wonders. Nat epic is +100% GP points but adds an artist to the mix. Mids + forge = 3 GE, add west point (need level 5 unit), 4 GE. Hagia is in Rome. Iron works needs chem and steel. 4 GE, 100% from Peter, nat epic, (OK, now 4GE 1 GA), pacifism is 20 GP points, 80% GE. Need 1050 points for next GP, so 1050/20 = 52.5 turns.

Just about what electricity radio and MM will take in research now, but research will be faster after the PA and Oxford. Detour to iron works techs (if we can get chem in trad, might detour to steel) an put works in Thebes, to get GE faster? Or go pure GE with works detour?

Pretty much beeline to MM after communism. Maybe the detour to steel if works is useful for the GE, as the time saved by the GE for UN will make up for the time lost to detour.

While teching to MM, conquer all non Hindus, run state property to control maint. Might gift cities to Capac, to control number of city maint. Or do we manage them better? Within the PA, does it matter who has the pop?

Are there even Hindus we can get away with attacking?

Max out our pop during this time, even found "tweener" cities?

Become friendly with as many hindu as possible.

Test the election waters in the UN once we have 40% pop or are certain we won't lose.

Alternatives to this plan:

Communism right away. Not sure we need it this soon, and why give others the free GPers?

PA with Caesar or Mao or Toku? If someone knows how to manipulate power and friendship to make these happen, great. But it would appear that we can get it with Capac fastest, he's ahead of Caesar in food and power, so maybe the list is Capac, Mao (if we can pump Toku ahead in power, share a war or a DP and be friendly), or Toku (if we can share a war or a DP and be friendly). Just seems like the quick PA with Capac is the way to go. Bird in the hand.

Setting up an opponent ... I can't see how we do that. No non-hindu can compete, and we can't boost them without getting diplomatic negatives with our Hindu pals.

Unless we boost a non-Hindu and backstab our Hindu friends. But if we are not friendly with civs, don't they just abstain in the UN? So I don't see how that helps.

Only 10 techs to SDI, some of which we get going to MM. Maynbe the nuclear option IS a second to last resort (probably faster than space!)

Open to suggestions, but this looks hard to beat!



dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

Alternatives to this plan:

Communism right away. Not sure we need it this soon, and why give others the free GPers?
...
PA with Caesar or Mao or Toku? If someone knows how to manipulate power and friendship to make these happen, great. But it would appear that we can get it with Capac fastest, he's ahead of Caesar in food and power, so maybe the list is Capac, Mao (if we can pump Toku ahead in power, share a war or a DP and be friendly), or Toku (if we can share a war or a DP and be friendly). Just seems like the quick PA with Capac is the way to go. Bird in the hand.
Open to suggestions, but this looks hard to beat!

dV

My suggestion towards Communism right now (that is, after Physics, since we already spent some turns on it) has a simple reason: it enables a PA!
I haven't done the math, but if we wanted a DP, Capac was ready to accept it before da Vinci's turnset. If we had shared a war (Hatty) by the time we completed Communism, even better!
And the longer we take to get it, the higher our power will be, putting in danger our ability to get it. In fact, someone could reach it before us and form a PA before us! We might even convert to SP and check if by any chance (not likely because of his high power rating, I admit) Mao would also be in the market for a PA.

I think Economics could have been tried if we had gone for it just after SM. Now that others have access to it, looks like a long shot for me. But I'll still go for it if the majority of the team says so - I'll count the votes tonight, unless someone requests more time to decide!

 

[da_Vinci]

At the moment, there is no threat that anyone will beat us to communism if we detour to econ. Comm requires sci meth, and not only does no AI have it, but no AI could even ask it in trade, as they do not have one of its pre-reqs. So they have two techs to get before they could even start communism.

We can get econ in 6 turns. Mao could have started it 3 turns ago ... what is his research rate and is he likely to have gone there instead of chemistry or divine right? I suppose if we know that Mao would have started it right away, his pop is 9% and ours is 12%, but he may have a 50% lead in time and even a 33% bonus of pop may not overcome his intrinsic monarch research bonus. Is it Mao's "nature" to go for econ, or for the free GM (or do all AI prioritize that, for that matter)?

So maybe 67% chance we get beat? Is it worth it anyway? I don't think we lose out on physics or communism. After we get Thebes, we can go to representation for a specialist science boost and speed that up more. Free market from econ would likely be a boost, even if we miss the GM.

I wish I knew if any duration of shared war is enough, or if it has to be a certain duration for the PA. If it does require a duration, then the detour to econ only helps. We can always maintain the war and not add cities, so as to keep our power in check until the PA.

On the other hand, our plan probably works just as well without the extra GM (although 6000 gold for a half a world away trade mission, buying builds could be really nice!), so is six turns of speed worth giving up a shot at him?

On the third hand, if I put all available scientists to work, econ is still six turns

On the fourth hand, Oxford can be poprushed for 4 pop (I'll lend you my whip ). Pull them off the 1F 3or4H tiles, and we can keep the scientists running. But that probaby does not speed econ to more than 5 turns, or 4 at best (no way to test), so maybe not worth it. But if we really really want that GM, poprushing Oxford would be the full court press.

Edit. Well, it IS +100% science, we give up 13 hammers (actually only 9 products because at one food each, these tiles are borrowing 1 food from elsewhere) and get what, an extra 96 science (what it produces when I take pop off the hammer tiles and make them citizen specialists, and pull the engineer to a farm, to see how that plays)? Even if we get just half of that extra, this meets my criteria for a slam dunk pop rush. If we can get econ in 4, can we beat Mao? I am tempted to try this!! But then, I love my whip! Are you game, C63?

So, is it worth gambling six turns of reseach speed to take an uncertain shot at the GM? If we think we know that Mao went for that right away, then no (unless we whip Oxford, see above). If we think maybe Mao is chasing chemistry, then yes.

Even if Mao isn't off the table due to top power, we would need the DP or shared war after we get him friendly (a lot to wait for), so I think the fast PA with Capac is less risk and more benefit.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

@ All,
Great discussion! My only point to add is on the Econ issue. I have no hard evidence, but I would guess that Mao would not head for Econ and would instead head for Communism to allow for his favorite civic. That being said, even if he beats us to Comm, I still think it will take him some number of turns before he can sign any PA's as well. I don't believe he has shared any wars or has any DP's either. I still think that research should go Econ - Physics - Comm - beeline to MM, trading for gold and all other techs when possible.
The problem comes with trying to garner votes for Diplo win. How to set up a non-Hindu as the opponent? Difficult now and even harder if 2 hindu's ally. I would still want to keep teching towards Space as all teams may be having similar issues. The nuke option would seem to be viable and very ruthless, I kind of like that.
I am still in favor of keeping pop rushing to a minimum, especially in cities that are running specialists. One of Peters traits is double GPP's, I have had games where I needed as many as 4000 points for my next GP. I'm not saying that we will get that far here, but I think we should keep pumping them out as fast as possible. We may want to trigger a golden age or even 2 if we are building spaceship parts in the end. With that being said, I would not rush Oxford either, even if we miss the GM, we can still run Free Market for a commerce boost. Moscow needs to grow!

?? Could someone please explain to me the issue of being in the #1 power position and not being able to sign a PA? Is this something that is stashed in the code, or did I fail to read something somewhere that explains the reason for this?

 

[da_Vinci]

I have found a missing piece to my approach to whipping decisions. It would add reasons to perhaps not whip in some cases.

The Oxford whip is a good example. I had said above that it might gain 90+ science at a cost of 9 net production from 4 pop. Not the whole story.

Lets say it gains 59 science at a cost of 9 net production for a net of 50 per turn. That is only 50 per turn AND ONLY FOR THE 5 TURNS UNTIL OXFORD WITHOUT THE WHIP (the missing piece), so an extra 250 extra productivity overall. Now, after five turns unwhipped, moscow can add 3 more scientists for 3 each, doubled by Oxford to 18. So if Oxford unwhipped can make 18 extra science (well, minus the 6 food those guys will eat, so 12 extra productivity), and maybe an extra 2 net productivity from the fourth extra pop, for 14. In 20 turns of running that much extra pop, unwhipped Oxford makes up the 250 gained in the whip and then some (280 in this example, for 30 more than the whip after 20 turns.

So the whip is always bad in the long run? No, because the lower pop post whip replenishes a bit faster, and if you run out of 2 food tiles to work in the no whip case, eventually the whip pop will catch up, with no per turn excess for the no whip case.

The question is, how soon does the whip pop catch the no whip pop, and is that long enough to make up the short term bonus of the whip? Depends on the immediate next turn benefit of the whip, the turns to make without the whip, the number of pop lost to the whip, and the pop regrowth dymamics. Pretty complex!

What can I say for sure?

If no next turn benefit, no whip (unless you need the whip for time savings)

If small next turn benefit and few turns without whip, don't whip.

If large benefit and long time without whip, then probably whip.

If mixed (big bene, short time, or small bene, long time), whipping is probably a toss-up. If whipping granary or lighthouse, probably a good idea (fast pop recovery). Need to assess the value of time gained, as whipping always buys you time.

So, whip Oxford or not? I think only if we are making a time play for econ and the GM.

With this new logic, I might second guess a few of my last turnset whips. Those of you who could not imagine that so much whipping could make sense... well ... you may have been right!

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

@dV: Another little detail: besides the beakers provided by the specialists, we should consider the generation of GPpoints (see Ronnie1's post above), which would be converted in more beakers (by lightbulbing techs, for instance).

Anyway, the clock is ticking and I will play my turn in an hour or 2...will look for more input by then, else I'll pursue economics, but I'll stay away from the whip as long as I can...

 

[da_Vinci]

I am still in favor of keeping pop rushing to a minimum, especially in cities that are running specialists. One of Peters traits is double GPP's, I have had games where I needed as many as 4000 points for my next GP. I'm not saying that we will get that far here, but I think we should keep pumping them out as fast as possible. We may want to trigger a golden age or even 2 if we are building spaceship parts in the end.

So, how bad do you want that GM? Poprushing Oxford would mean a lot of pop to regrow in Moscow (but after we get econ, we could focus on food and get them back ... means giving up hammers in Moscow for a while, and perhaps running six scientsts and representation is better anyway).

If we go for the GE in Thebes play, then we may need to cut back on specialists for a while. That is a whole different crystal ball calculation to perform, as to whether that is worthwhile or not.

Do we agree that Capac for the PA is the way to go?

How to finish this game? Our pop is 7,395,000. Rival best is 4,378,000 But rival average is 2,336,812 and rival worst is 478,000. That 4 million must be Mao, and is 9%.

So, we have 12%, I expect 20% after PA with Capac and taking Hatty. Need 40% more, so we could take over our five biggest rivals (4/5 hindu) and vote ourselves in perhaps (just take the biggest cities, to max pop per land).

If we need to do this, might want to start on Mao and Caesar before they make a pact, and before we get to the UN

How about that for a fork in the road!

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

This was a busy turn. Here is the save.

The upload log is here.

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1340 AD to 1400 AD:

Turn 280, 1340 AD: Bank in Delhi added 20 GPT (50 became 70)
Turn 280, 1340 AD: changed research to economics - due in 6
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Huayna Capac has declared war on Hatshepsut!
Turn 280, 1340 AD: bribed HC to war with Hattie, WM, 20g for gunpowder
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Moscow celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 280, 1340 AD: The borders of Calcutta have expanded!
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Delhi celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Mao Zedong adopts Theocracy!

Turn 281, 1346 AD: You have declared war on Hatshepsut!
Turn 281, 1346 AD: HC requested war vs Hattie - accepted
Turn 281, 1346 AD: Moscow celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 281, 1346 AD: Hatshepsut's Catapult (5.00) vs Gypsy Kings's Cossack (19.80)
Turn 281, 1346 AD: Gypsy Kings's Cossack has defeated Hatshepsut's Catapult!
Turn 281, 1346 AD: Hatshepsut's Maceman (8.00) vs Gypsy Kings's Cossack (17.82)
Turn 281, 1346 AD: Gypsy Kings's Cossack has defeated Hatshepsut's Maceman!

Turn 282, 1352 AD: The borders of Novgorod have expanded!

Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult (5.00) vs Hatshepsut's Longbowman (10.20)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Hatshepsut's Longbowman has defeated Gypsy Kings's Catapult!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult (5.00) vs Hatshepsut's Longbowman (9.00)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Hatshepsut's Longbowman has defeated Gypsy Kings's Catapult!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult (5.00) vs Hatshepsut's Longbowman (9.00)

Turn 284, 1364 AD: Hatshepsut's Longbowman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult (5.00) vs Hatshepsut's Longbowman (6.07)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult has defeated Hatshepsut's Longbowman!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult (5.00) vs Hatshepsut's Longbowman (4.11)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult has defeated Hatshepsut's Longbowman!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Cossack (21.60) vs Hatshepsut's Longbowman (5.40)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Cossack has defeated Hatshepsut's Longbowman!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Maceman (8.00) vs Hatshepsut's Longbowman (3.90)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Maceman has defeated Hatshepsut's Longbowman!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Maceman (8.00) vs Hatshepsut's Longbowman (4.13)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Maceman has defeated Hatshepsut's Longbowman!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Swordsman (6.00) vs Hatshepsut's Longbowman (3.02)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Swordsman has defeated Hatshepsut's Longbowman!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Swordsman (6.00) vs Hatshepsut's Spearman (2.16)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Swordsman has defeated Hatshepsut's Spearman!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Longbowman (6.00) vs Hatshepsut's Catapult (2.50)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Longbowman has defeated Hatshepsut's Catapult!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: You have captured Thebes!!!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Pikeman (6.60) vs Hatshepsut's Horse Archer (3.33)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Pikeman has defeated Hatshepsut's Horse Archer!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Horse Archer (6.60) vs Hatshepsut's Catapult (3.33)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Gypsy Kings's Horse Archer has defeated Hatshepsut's Catapult!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: The borders of Rostov have expanded!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Delhi celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Hatshepsut adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Pytheas has been born in London!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Hinduism has spread in Ningbo.

Turn 285, 1370 AD: Vic 1st to Economics - bye free GM
Turn 285, 1370 AD: You have discovered Economics!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Delhi celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Victoria adopts Free Market!

Turn 286, 1376 AD: CH in rostov for 1 pop
Turn 286, 1376 AD: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Gypsy Kings adopts Representation!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Gypsy Kings adopts Free Market!

Turn 287, 1382 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Thebes!
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gypsy Kings's Pikeman (6.60) vs Hatshepsut's Horse Archer (3.33)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gypsy Kings's Pikeman has defeated Hatshepsut's Horse Archer!
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Isabella has 5 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 287, 1382 AD: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 288, 1388 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Alexandria to 51%!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Hatshepsut has 100 gold available for trade
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Julius Caesar has 110 gold available for trade
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Kublai Khan has 90 gold available for trade
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Delhi has grown to size 11
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Bangalore will grow to size 3 on the next turn

Turn 289, 1394 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Alexandria to 42%!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Alexandria to 33%!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: guilds to Cyrus - 150g
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Tokugawa has 120 gold available for trade
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Isabella has 5 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Rostov celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Yaroslavl' will grow to size 9 on the next turn
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Bangalore has grown to size 3
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Hatshepsut's Horse Archer (7.20) vs Gypsy Kings's Swordsman (6.00)
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Hatshepsut's Horse Archer has defeated Gypsy Kings's Swordsman!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: While defending, your Swordsman was destroyed by a Egyptian Horse Archer!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Leonardo da Vinci has been born in London!

Turn 290, 1400 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Thebes!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Alexandria to 24%!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult (5.00) vs Hatshepsut's Longbowman (9.24)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Catapult has caused collateral damage! (4 Units)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Hatshepsut's Longbowman has defeated Gypsy Kings's Catapult!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Catapult has died trying to attack a Longbowman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Gypsy Kings's Cossack (21.60) vs Hatshepsut's Longbowman (9.50)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Gypsy Kings's Cossack has defeated Hatshepsut's Longbowman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Cossack has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Gypsy Kings's Cossack (19.80) vs Hatshepsut's Longbowman (8.97)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Gypsy Kings's Cossack has defeated Hatshepsut's Longbowman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Cossack has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Gypsy Kings's Swordsman (6.00) vs Hatshepsut's Spearman (2.61)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Gypsy Kings's Swordsman has defeated Hatshepsut's Spearman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Spearman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Gypsy Kings's Swordsman (6.00) vs Hatshepsut's Horse Archer (2.99)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Gypsy Kings's Swordsman has defeated Hatshepsut's Horse Archer!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Horse Archer!

And the autolog is here.

Spoiler :

Turn 270 (1280 AD)
Research begun: Economics
User comment: changed research to economics - due in 6
User comment: bribed HC to war with Hattie, WM, 20g for gunpowder
Cossack promoted: Combat I
Calcutta's borders expand
Bombay finishes: Theatre
Bangalore grows: 2

Turn 281 (1346 AD)
Bombay begins: Forge
User comment: HC requested war vs Hattie - accepted
Yekaterinburg grows: 9
Delhi grows: 10
Cossack defeats (16.20/18): Egyptian Catapult
Cossack defeats (13.86/18): Egyptian Maceman

Turn 282 (1352 AD)
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Cossack promoted: Combat II
Catapult promoted: City Raider I
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison I
Spearman promoted: Combat I
Novgorod's borders expand
Novgorod finishes: Cossack

Turn 283 (1358 AD)
Novgorod begins: Cossack
Cossack promoted: Combat I
St. Petersburg grows: 14
Yekaterinburg finishes: Hindu Temple

Turn 284 (1364 AD)
Yekaterinburg begins: Cossack
Catapult loses to: Egyptian Longbowman (6.00/6)
Catapult loses to: Egyptian Longbowman (6.00/6)
Catapult defeats (2.70/5): Egyptian Longbowman
Catapult defeats (0.25/5): Egyptian Longbowman
Cossack defeats (15.84/18): Egyptian Longbowman
Maceman defeats (2.88/8): Egyptian Longbowman
Maceman defeats (3.92/8): Egyptian Longbowman
Swordsman defeats (6.00/6): Egyptian Longbowman
Swordsman defeats (5.22/6): Egyptian Spearman
Longbowman defeats (5.10/6): Egyptian Catapult
Christianity has spread: Thebes
Captured Thebes (Hatshepsut)
Pikeman defeats (4.32/6): Egyptian Horse Archer
Horse Archer defeats (3.48/6): Egyptian Catapult
Thebes begins: Courthouse
Moscow grows: 14
Moscow finishes: Oxford University
Novgorod grows: 10
Rostov's borders expand
Bombay grows: 6
Taoism has spread: Timbuktu (Malinese Empire)
Hinduism has spread: Ningbo (Chinese Empire)

Turn 285 (1370 AD)
Moscow begins: Cossack
Horse Archer promoted: Medic II
Swordsman promoted: City Raider III
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison II
Catapult promoted: City Raider III
Maceman promoted: City Raider II
Pikeman promoted: Medic I
User comment: Vic 1st to Economics - bye free GM
Tech learned: Economics
Rostov grows: 16
Madras grows: 10
Judaism has spread: Tabriz (Mongolian Empire)

Turn 286 (1376 AD)
Research begun: Physics
User comment: CH in rostov for 1 pop

Turn 287 (1382 AD)
Pikeman defeats (6.00/6): Egyptian Horse Archer

Summary: Bribed HC (Gunpowder) to declare to Hatty. He asked us to join next turn. Of course we did. Took Thebes, and a 2nd town is to fall next turn.

Bad news: 1 turn before we got Economics, Vicky completed it. Never mind, we revolted to Representation and Free Market. Physics is now due in 5 turns.

I just let the cities grow. Now we have +3 beakers/specialist. Let's use them.

 

[da_Vinci]

Shocked that Vicky beat us to econ ! Either she was able to research it earlier than I thought, or she used some great to lightbulb it (I'll look at the logs for recent GP in England), or she has some incredible research rate (but she only has a capital and 4 cities, and a tiny pop!).

(Edit: Must have been a lightbulb:

Turn 284, 1364 AD: Pytheas has been born in London!

Turn 285, 1370 AD: Vic 1st to Economics - bye free GM
Turn 285, 1370 AD: You have discovered Economics!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Delhi celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Victoria adopts Free Market!

Well, you gotta play to win, so I still think worth the shot. End edit)

Before I download the new save to look, let me explore a couple of things in the save from my last turn ...

Mao was saying that he doesn't like us enough for a DP at this time. +12

Caesar said the same. +9

And Vicky too. +6

Saladin. +5

Alexander. +13

Toku, however, would give us one! Even though he is only pleased. +12

Capac would give us one, of course. +17

And Cyrus too. +10

It is not even on the screen with Monte. +10 (Edit 2: Monte is at war, so not avail.)

Any sense to be made of the numbers and the responses?

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

Logistics first!

The current roster order is;

C63 - Just played, Nice job C63!!
Joemama - UP NOW
Scout214 - on deck
Ronnie1 - in the hole
da_Vinci - waiting

Igelkott - Temporary Leave of Absence

Confusion - Injured Reserve until further notice

 

[da_Vinci]

Nice work C63!

Some thoughts moving forward:

Cash: 90% science also gets physics in 6, with half the cash drain.

Mao has 110 to trade, but no junk techs to give him. Monte has 100 and needs guilds and enginering. Alex has 60, Capac has 70, Toku has 130.

Musa has 180 but Mao is still annoyed with him, so probably can't trade.

Louis has 80, looks like he is OK to trade with.

City production:

Moscow - if we give up the hammers, we can put five scientists in place, for 237 science in the city (and physics in 5 even at 90% ) A sixth scientist would stop growth but give 256 science. And 38 GP points per turn.

Yekat - currently making a Cossack, but here is another place where we might trade hammers for specialists, but here artists as border is shriniking.

Bombay is now only 92% Russian! Cultural invasion is occuring. May need to rush culture buildings here, and run artists. Maybe Hermitage here?

Dehli - If we work the farms, we can grow the pop back one every 3 turns to get back on the hills for the hammers.


Long term, I see a few different ways to try to win this:

Win a vote in the UN because people like us. Could conquer the non Hindus, but basically keep the Hindus happy.

Win a vote in the UN because we and Capac have more that 60% of pop. This can be done two ways:

As a fall a fall back if the happy vote method fails, or as a primary strategy, which means going after the big Hindi before we get to the UN.

Ok, a third way ... tech to SDI and nuke the rest of the world to oblivion, and vote ourselves in.

Or make a space ship.

So what approaches either keep the most of these options open, or speed us to one likely to succeed? I wish I knew the answer! Any thoughts?

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

@ All,
Egypt doesn't look so strong now!
We, on the other hand are looking good!!!!

Nice job C63!! It looks like we only suffered minimal losses and those cats are easily replaced. It looks like Moscow can spit out cats every 2 turns with very little overflow, we may want make it the cat center for a little while.

It looks like Joemama should have no problem rolling up both northern cities in his turnset. Where do we want to stop after that? Memphis looks like it may be worth having, it will take cultural pressure off of Thebes and it has 4 bonus resources in the fat cross. The bigger question is whether to keep rolling northward and take down Musa while we have the advantage. He doesn't have much to offer in the way of pop or resources, it may not be worth the effort, even if it's only a small effort. Maybe we take Musa out and give the northern tundra cities to Saladin. They will be under strong cultural pressure anyway, it may boost relations with Saladin, and then the pop of those cities may vote for us anyway without having to maintain them. Just a thought.

Everything else I looked at seems great!! Let's keep rolling!

 

[da_Vinci]

We might head south if we think we want more of the Egyptian cities for ourselves, instead of Capac. Can we find out if he keeps his AI Monarch bonuses if he allies with us, or does he adopt our Monarch deficits? That could decide who we want to have the cities after we ally.

Also, I an wondering if we might want to go fight Fred after Egypt. Monte seems impotent at taking him out, so maybe a shared war with Monte makes another friend for the UN? Plus, more pop and cities can't hurt. Could give these to Capac after the PA since it is his sphere of influnce anyway. Might have the caravel scout Germany to see how that war is going. Let's get some German cities before Monte gets them all! Maybe even pause war with Hatty at some point to get Fred, then come back to finish Hatty?

Moscow: currently, only running one engineer, 8 GP points per turn, +6 food, but near happy cap, 165 science. Could run 6 scientists, stagnant, if we give up the hill ties, for 266 science, 38 GP points per turn. path to MM at 165 sci in moscow is elec 16, radio 21, MM 13 for 50 total. At 266 in Moscow is elec 14, radio 18, MM 11 for 43 (save 7). So, do we give up the Moscow production to save 7 research turns, or not?

Maybe not, as in the current picture pop will grow and we can slowly add back scientists, so time loss may be more like 5 turns. Fast war may be more important that fast research right now. But an interesting city specialization question.

Happiness will need to be watched as war weariness is starting (causing 2 unhappy in Rostov for example). This will probably make whipping obsolete in our homeland (still useful in new conquests). Temples and theatres may be needed.

Will we want some missionaries to convert Egypt?

Bombay: I might rush that forge and build the library and the two temples to push back with some culture. If Vicky flips it , Ronnie1 will have a stroke!

Madras can build Cosacks in 10 after the theatre.

Delhi grows every 10 now, but if we work the farms and a coast (no specs temporarily), it grows in 3 and then perhaps in 4, so in maybe 12 turns we have both hills worked again and can put specialists back. Or staying on the hills and putting the two specs on farms grows in 4 and keeps the grocer coming. Dehli can make cats every 6 (or 5 with engineer) after grocer.

Great people. St Pete is 80% there, 29% chance for engineer. 246 to go, 12 per turn if one Eng and one Sci (20 turns), or 18 per turn if 1 eng and 2 sci, (14 turns), or 24 per turn 1 eng and 3 sci (11 turns). I think the choice is 1/2 or 1/3 (1/1 probably won't budge odds much off 1/3 for GE), and 1/3 only gains 3 turns.

I favor running 1 eng, 2 sci for a 30% shot at GE for the UN in 14 turns. And be sure no other GP pops before to move the required total. If no GE, then think about setting up Thebes for a GE.

I think that we should shoot for the friendly front door diplo (as we kill non-hindu), with killing off hindu as a fallback. Our pop is now almost 14%, so maybe after PA with Capac and taking Egypt we get to 30%? That would be just 10% short of safety in UN voting.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

@ ALL,
one thing I forgot to ask about. When Thebes comes out of anarchy, is everyone in favor of burning off the with the whip. If so, I would suggest whipping the CH first and a Granary second (whip them on the same turn to avoid any starvation) and then starting on the FP. Do we still want FP in Thebes?

About tile usage in general. As pop grows, we can obviously run more specialists in the surplus food cities and I am a firm believer in that option with a Philosophical leader. The other issue comes with working cottage tiles. As the "hint screen" says, they start small but pay off big in the end, but only if they are getting worked. I would vote for working all of the cottages all of time with very few exceptions.

Bombay: I might rush that forge and build the library and the two temples to push back with some culture. If Vicky flips it, Ronnie1 will have a stroke!

I would not rush the forge, there is some cultural pressure there but not enough to flip the city IMO. There is only the one strong food tile there so pop growth is somewhat slow as it is. I would rather just take out Vicky and worry about the cultural pressure from Isabella. I say after the forge, start pumping out some Cossacks.

I think we will want to send a missionary or two to Egypt, after that we can build them there.

I like the idea of joining the war against Fred and giving the cities to Capac, but only after we have a PA. If something were to happen and we didn't get the PA with Capac, would this still seem like something we would want to do? Also, I think declaring on Fred will give us a - modifier with all Hindu's except Monty, is that a problem?

On micro managing tile use. I would switch St Petes to the cottage tile between it and Moscow, giving up the coast square. This doesn't change anything else in St Petes and allows an additional specialist in Moscow. I would let St Petes keep running at least 2 scientists with the engineer, maybe all 3 and just take our chances with the GE. Rostov will be the next GP site after St Petes and it has a 30% chance of a GE also.

We should build the National Epic somewhere. A point for some discussion in the near future. Moscow maybe?

We need to make sure we get a unit to level 5 so we can build West Point!!

@dV, I see what you are trying to do with the GE generation, but I'm not sure it is our best interest in general. As a Philosphical leader, I think we should just pump out as many GP's as possible and let the chips fall where they may. We can obviously try and generate certain GPP's to some extent, but I don't think I would want to stall GP production just to try and get 1 GE. We could start a golden age while building the UN to boost production, or we could detour to steel and build Ironworks for a super production city. In essence, there is more than one way to skin a cat!!

 

[Conquistador 63]

City production:

Moscow - if we give up the hammers, we can put five scientists in place, for 237 science in the city (and physics in 5 even at 90% ) A sixth scientist would stop growth but give 256 science. And 38 GP points per turn.

Yekat - currently making a Cossack, but here is another place where we might trade hammers for specialists, but here artists as border is shriniking.

Bombay is now only 92% Russian! Cultural invasion is occuring. May need to rush culture buildings here, and run artists. Maybe Hermitage here?

Dehli - If we work the farms, we can grow the pop back one every 3 turns to get back on the hills for the hammers.

dV

Give up hammers?!? From having played the last turnset, I completely disagree on that, for a number of reasons:

1. We have a window of opportunity where we should be using extensively our overpowered UU. And we only have a couple of them on field! What could be a walkover turns into a crawl, because the enemy has lots of (inferior) troops garrisoning their cities, making us depend on cats, swords and a couple of maces. We are forced to spend a lot of time healing our troops, because almost no reinforcement is being produced. With a fast global research rate, you can bet riflemen (also redcoats!) will be around real soon.

2. If we want to conquer non-hindu civs we have to focus on troop production right now. I think we're ill prepared to do so, almost no hammer tiles in our lands. Even in our military center a cossacks takes some 6 turns to build. The next techs in our plan will be useless military-wise.

3. Take a look at the power graph in the results page. Trash Team is below us in score but has 2x our power rating! Most likely they already achieved their PA, but in any case they're better positioned to a backdoor diplo win. Yet another incentive for us to beeline to communism, but I think there is already a consensus on that.

 

[da_Vinci]

Give up hammers?!? From having played the last turnset, I completely disagree on that, for a number of reasons:

You are right about that. Don't know if you saw my tech rate calc in post 356, but after seeing only a 7 turn gain at most (probably really 5 or even less) to MM from running max scientists in Moscow, I was leaning away from givng up the hammers. Your logic has fully convinced me ... max hammers, max troops!

@ Ronnie1: I missed the fact that Fred is Hindu (that is what you mean, right? I am away from the game at present). That may mean not going after him any time soon. Check to see if Monte has negatives with other Hindi due to that war ... if not, well maybe Fred after all ...

I think that the 14 turn play in St Pete for a 30% shot at GE could be done without having to slow GP production much anywhere else. If we are going to max hammers for troops anyway, that may mean fewer specialists in most cities so maybe the GE play works in that context.

But you are probably right that it does not make sense to contort our empire to try to get a GE out of Thebes. After the St Pete play (which is only 3 turns longer than at max spec IIRC), I am happy to just let the GPP fall where they may. So how does the GE play in St. Pete, followed by "let the chips fall" sound to you?

@ all:

When riflemen show, will we want some grenadiers paired with the Cossacks? With luck, perhaps we can trade for chem and even steel, or maybe we detour for steel sometime before MM.

Seems like we need a consensus about city micromanagement, as we enter what might be a long warring period.

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

Take a look at the power graph in the results page. Trash Team is below us in score but has 2x our power rating! Most likely they already achieved their PA, but in any case they're better positioned to a backdoor diplo win. Yet another incentive for us to beeline to communism, but I think there is already a consensus on that.

Fortunately, Trash Team is playing warlords. Maybe acquiring a vassal explains their power curve? I don't know a thing about Warlords yet, but maybe the comparisons don't make sense.

When I have had a PA in other games, scores are still kept separately for the two civs, so power should be too. So if their jump in power is not due to combining power score in a PA, what is it from? If they have made that many troops, then perhaps they lag in tech (else they would have higher score than us) and thus I doubt that they have the their PA yet. Unless tech contributes a lot to power, in which case maybe their power lead is based on tech? But if our score is higher, they must be lacking something.

We could take a look at how close the AI are to physics, and switch to communism if that looks safe ... have to do that in the next turnset or physics will be done (in 6, regardless of the scientist tweaks, which also only drop communism from 8 to 7). What does everyone else think of getting Communism 6 turns sooner?

We do all agree that as soon as we get that, we PA with Capac, right?

If we trade for all the cash we can (this might affect the communism vs physics decision), since we will be getting conquest cash, maybe we should upgrade the sword to mace and that horse archer to Cossack. Expensive yes, but it sounds like we need the quality until we can make more quantity. Sealifting makes this warring process slow, so let's max our military power in the war zone.

dV