SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

Ronnie1 · Jan 9, 2007

@ All,

Looking at the tech screen tells us this, no one can even research Scientific Method yet let alone Physics or Communism. Caesar can research Constitution, Nationalism, and Chemistry and already has Divine Right. This puts him at the head of the pack chasing us. Capac and Mao are the only others who can research Chemistry at this point. We probably should have seen this earlier and would have had no problem getting to Econ first, but hind sight is 20/20! The point now is that we can go whichever direction we want. Lightbulbing the next GS will give us part of Chemistry unless we can trade for it and then it will give us part of Biology. My thinking is to finish Physics for the GS. No reason to even risk missing it. Then research Comm for the PA and then head to MM. I don't think we can sign a PA while we are at war, but I'm not 100% sure. I know no DP's while at war, but I can't find anything about PA's at the moment. We try and trade for Chemistry and then bulb part of Biology. We may even want to detour and finish Biology for the pop gain right away.

As C63 pointed out, we should probably max out our UU advantage while we can. That may mean changing some of the build orders and concentrating on producing lots of troops over the next 20-50 turns.

What do you think???

da_Vinci · Jan 9, 2007

Fred has lots of the Hindu pleased with him, so war risks a "you declared on our friend" diplo hit.

Not heading for econ earlier was my miss ... sorry guys. :sad:

Agree we have a window for using the Cossack ... do we consider whipping a few? If nothing else, whipping buys you time. Or just max the hammers?

We need to think of where to build the UN, and if we need to change tile improvements in some city to max out hammers. So far, Novgorod and Moscow have most hammers. 33 to be exact. 1500 hammers/33 = 45 turns!! :eek:

OUCH! Do we need to raze cottages to make workshops in Moscow? Or set up to run priests (adds a hammer)? Getting to 40 hammers would reduce UN to 35 turns. We may want to stock up on GP for some back to back golden ages.

Is Biology that useful while we are at war? I guess we could use the extra food to run more specialists. But war weariness will limit pop growth.

If physics is safe, lets go get communism first. If we watch closely, can always jump back to physics if someone gets sci meth. Getting the PA six turns earlier may be a good idea, especially given how long the UN will take.

dV

Joemama · Jan 9, 2007

Played a few turns and have two comments.

1. Cossacks are fantastic.
2. War turnsets are very time consuming.

Not much productive for the workers to do. I put a few to sleep in Rindia.

I went ahead and finished physics. The scientist is asleep until we are done with communism.

Mao demanded Nationalism, I felt like I had to cave. The next person may want to start selling some techs to keep the tech pace and minimize having to give expensive techs away.

I took the two northern Egyptian cities and stopped while looking at what she has left. I thought this was a good breaking point for everyone to comment on before the next person goes. Although WW is starting to take its tole, I vote for continuing our cossack rampage (They really slice through Hassy's current units). It shouldn't take too long, especially with a couple more units trickling over from the mainland.

The log:

Spoiler :

Ronnie1 · Jan 10, 2007

Nice Job Joemama!! :goodjob:

Logistics first

The current roster order is

Joemama - just bashed some Egyptians :lol:

Scout214 - UP NOW

Ronnie1 - on deck

da_Vinci - in the hole :scan:

Conquistador63 - waiting :cool:

Igelkott - Temporary leave of absence :sad:

Confussion - Injured reserve until further notice

The first thing to say is that I prepared a really great post and forum site seems to have crashed and taken it down as collateral damage. Very :sad:

So I will try and re-create it again. Where to go and what to do now?

I think that Scout should play until Communism comes in and then pause. That will give us a chance to discuss how to proceed at that crucial juncture.

It seems that not much has changed since before Joemama's turns (tech wise). I was hoping that someone would research Chemistry, or any tech that we could trade for, for that matter. It looks like our trading options are non existent at the start of Scouts turn, with the exception being gold. There is about 2000G available if we take it all regardless of religion. Does anyone know if trading techs for gold has any - modifiers attached for rivals, or just trades that show up in the "active" screen? If there are no penalties for taking Confucian or Buddhist gold, it all spends the same!

My other ? is about the PA's. I think I remember someone saying that Mao would not sign a PA if he was the power leader. Does this go for other leaders as well? What if we are the power leader? Intuitively, I would think that the AI's would want to join with the power leader to assure their dominance. Am I missing something?

Are we agreed that Capac is our #1 choice for the PA, or is this still open for discussion? Does anyone know if we can sign a PA while we are war? If the answer is no, then both we and Capac must make peace for the PA to happen. Did we share a war for long enough if that is the case. Maybe we just keep rolling through Egypt and gift cities to Capac only after we sign the PA.

Do we need to raze cottages to make workshops in Moscow? Or set up to run priests (adds a hammer)? Getting to 40 hammers would reduce UN to 35 turns. We may want to stock up on GP for some back to back golden ages.

I am a firm believer in the cottage economy. If we switch to Universal Suffrage, all towns will produce hammers. Let us all just think positive thoughts about a GE from Rostov!!

da_Vinci · Jan 10, 2007

Joemama said:
Mao demanded Nationalism, I felt like I had to cave. The next person may want to start selling some techs to keep the tech pace and minimize having to give expensive techs away.

But now Mao is Friendly so maybe not so bad! Perhaps that is the key to making friends ... let them demand tribute, and give it.

WE ARE A WHISKER AWAY FROM BEING TOP IN POWER! WHICH WOULD BLOCK GETTING THE PA! I think we must make immediate peace, and pause all troop production! Capac will make peace as well if we ask/bribe, it appears. Or maybe make peace after communism comes in if we think that length of shared war is an issue. BUT TAKE NO MORE CITIES!

C63 discussed the power issue in his post 277, so take a look at that (I will edit in some key points shortly. He referenced a source on this in that post).

C63 wrote in 277: I have done a few searching for "permanent alliance" in the strategy forum, with some useful info here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3853417&postcount=1 and also a little research about Mao's personality traits in an excel spreadsheet (attached) I also downloaded from these forums a while ago.

In fact I think we can get a PA with Mao eventually, even without a previous DP, provided that:
1. We share a war with him against a common foe. We need to check who he dislikes more. I'll look on the "glance" page of the improved diplomatic advisor when I can.
2. We use his favorite civic - state property. This is his main trait - as strong as religion to Isabella. This will come in handy, as we need Communism to get a PA.
3. Neither one of us is leader in power score! Or else we might get a red message like "You're too Powerful" or "We're doing fine on our own" from him when requesting a PA! This came as shocking news for me, and we need to keep an eye on it. (End C63 quote)

From the source: Ok, so you knew most of that already. Here are some tricks I picked up:

"You're too powerful"
Look at the graph (F9) and change it to show Power. You must not be the top of that graph.
That means you can't build a big military. If you did, you can disband units or gift them to your Pact brother (warning: see next tip) or others.

"We're doing fine on our own"
Look at the Power graph again. You're Pact brother must also not be on top or you get this problem.
This means you probably can't gift him your units. If you didn't give him any and he's still on top, then you have to give
tech and probably military units to another Civ. One that you don't plan to attack probably. Just a couple units makes a
significant jump up on the Power graph, so it's easy.

Maintaining a war is probably the fastest way to get a PA, but I go for a Defensive Pact. Research Military Tradition ASAP and get that
Pact with one and only one Civ. You must make your choice at this time. A 2nd Pact can drag you into a war which cancels your first pact. You'll need this Pact for 40 turns (quick game speed). Example, I got my Pact in 40 AD. He finally accepted a PA in 1400 AD. I'm not sure if it's always 40 turns. It could depend on which civ. (End source quotes)

Maybe it is time to disband all those warriors?

Maybe even a few galleys? And perhaps that explorer and caravel out in the boondocks?

Worst case, give away a city? Bombay to Vic if it comes to that?

Edit: Well, it won't come to giving up a city, it appears. Gifting a few troops to Capac will do. I see no way that Mao could be our PA ... no shared war, DP might need to last forever, and no way to get him off power top (unless we pass him). Toku only pleased, would need DP for how long? Ditto Caesar. So PA with Capac is a slam dunk, right?

We could max out specialists to try to knock a turn off communism.

dV

da_Vinci · Jan 10, 2007

PA with Capac is the primary goal.

Could make peace now, get Capac to as well, get PA in 5 (might make DP now in case that helps with PA in 5), then in 5 more turns we can finish off Hatty. Then I might take the risk of negatives and go get Fred.

Or we could run a phony war for 5 turns if we think that is better for the PA. This does delay finishing off Hatty, as there will be 10 turns of peace (unless a cease fire does as well ... is a cease fire considered peace?).

Or phony war, try to make com in 4 turns (max specialists), see if PA can be made during the shared war, if not, make peace and then try for the PA, if not, make DP, if no PA in 10, go back to shared war?

Plenty of gold we can get from our friends, much less our enemies in trade. I'd get the PA before trading with many non-Hindi. Might even get Hatty's gold in our peace treaty! Unless making peace with Hatty will bother Capac? Have him make peace first?

Given the long build time for UN, a GE play in Thebes is looking good to me again. If we can get a UN vote before any other PA appear, we might get that quick front door diplo.

dV

Conquistador 63 · Jan 10, 2007

Ronnie1 said:
The first thing to say is that I prepared a really great post and forum site seems to have crashed and taken it down as collateral damage. Very

It has happened to me before, more than once.

When I plan to write a long text I sometimes write it on notepad, then paste it into the post. Or else select all/copy before hitting the submit button.

Ronnie1 said:
I think that Scout should play until Communism comes in and then pause. That will give us a chance to discuss how to proceed at that crucial juncture.

Agreed...I might add, he could convert to State Property in that same turn and save the turn after anarchy. At that point we might check how many +'s we got for our relations with Mao. If he is really the "civic fanatic" :crazyeye:

who knows, maybe we could get that dreamed PA?
Also, we might check now if we can share a war with Mao. Before Joe's turn, he would say "we have enough on our hands..." if we asked him to declare on anyone. But now he's friendly...

Ronnie1 said:
Does anyone know if trading techs for gold has any - modifiers attached for rivals, or just trades that show up in the "active" screen? If there are no penalties for taking Confucian or Buddhist gold, it all spends the same!

Good question. I don't know the answer but I assume it's a risky proposition.

Ronnie1 said:
My other ? is about the PA's. I think I remember someone saying that Mao would not sign a PA if he was the power leader. Does this go for other leaders as well? What if we are the power leader? Intuitively, I would think that the AI's would want to join with the power leader to assure their dominance. Am I missing something?

Are we agreed that Capac is our #1 choice for the PA, or is this still open for discussion? Does anyone know if we can sign a PA while we are war? If the answer is no, then both we and Capac must make peace for the PA to happen. Did we share a war for long enough if that is the case. Maybe we just keep rolling through Egypt and gift cities to Capac only after we sign the PA.

da Vinci has explained it above much better than I could.

Ronnie1 said:
I am a firm believer in the cottage economy. If we switch to Universal Suffrage, all towns will produce hammers. Let us all just think positive thoughts about a GE from Rostov!!

Agreed 100%. Also, under US we can also shut down research after MM and rush-buy whatever we can, we will be swimming in cash.

Kudos to da Vinci for spotting the power issue. Another option to be considered is to press on war on Hattie while on our way to being commies :rolleyes:

, besides giving away all the useless units (warriors, galleys, caravels, explorers, etc.) to someone who is next to the top. If that isn't still enough, then we might consider giving HC one or 2 of the "future former" southern Egyptian cities. :lol:

p.s.1. Great job, Joemama!!!
p.s.2. Going on vacations for a week next Sunday! No Civ4, no Internet access for a whole week! Isn't that great? :cool:

...

...

da_Vinci · Jan 10, 2007

Conquistador 63 said:
Another option to be considered is to press on war on Hattie while on our way to being commies , besides giving away all the useless units (warriors, galleys, caravels, explorers, etc.) to someone who is next to the top. If that isn't still enough, then we might consider giving HC one or 2 of the "future former" southern Egyptian cities.

Do you mean by press on take more cities before communism? I am all for keeping the war on but not taking more cities until after we get communism and see the lay of the land. We have troops that need to heal anyway, so it makes sense to me.

Is a PA with Mao so much better than a PA with Capac that we would wait for one with Mao instead of get one right away with Capac? After communism, we are 50 turns from MM without PA. Maxing scientists in Moscow cut to 43. Maybe adding Capac cuts to 30? Hard to decide because too many issues of game mechanics are unknown to us.

At present save, Mao won't declare on anyone. Even if he would, we'd have to pump (pimp?) Toku to the top of power, while not getting there ourselves. If we have to gift cities to Capac to do that, then won't we make him as powerful as Mao anyway?

Mao is capital + 11 cities. Capac is capital + 10. So one city gifted to Capac to control our power would make it a wash on cities between him and Mao. And once Capac gets all of our techs (automatic with the PA), maybe he is just about as strong as Mao?

Goal of the game is fastest Diplo win (assuming that space can't be fastest). I think taking a really good PA now is better than waiting for an uncertain "perfect" PA. The longer we wait on Mao, the longer we have to restrain our military (to not peak in power), losing our Cossack window.

So I say keep up war with Hatty, take no more cities while troops heal, see if we can PA with Capac during war, if not, make peace and see, and if not that, well then maybe consider DP with Mao instead of DP with Capac. But if Capac will PA right away, take it (who knows when shared war with Mao will happen, or how long a DP it takes - 40 turns noted by our source, I can say that in a test game it only took me 10 turns to be the second PA, but maybe the first does take 40).

Once we have the PA with Capac, we can turn our power loose on the non Hindu. I don't want to delay that if we can help it. Musa only has 4 cities, so a nice next target if we are not in a holding pattern for the PA.

Any disagreement with that?

dV

PS: In the handfull of turns that Joemama played, Bombay went from 92% Russian to 90% Russian. Library and the two temples should be next builds there. The mine 2E of it is only 50% Russian, so we may lose that soon.

Joemama · Jan 10, 2007

While I understand DV's concern/obsession :cool:

with the PA, I still think I would press on and finish Hatty. From my experience the AI never stops producing units/power. Even if we end up ahead by a bit after our war, it would not take too many builder turns for Mao to catch back up.

Maybe it is because I am not too familiar with PAs, but I don't think we have any guarantees that HC or Mao would even accept a PA from us. I can guarantee that a bunch more cossacks tearing through another target or two even would give us more population (U.N. votes). Another reason to not wait on Hatty is that she has several ships in her current capital. I don't want to risk her upgrading all of those galleys and caravels to galleons.

Also, we don't have to worry about the explorer and caravel in the boondocks. I played a little too close to the barbs in the north and got our explorer killed :crazyeye:

so I disbanded the caravel.

da_Vinci · Jan 10, 2007

C63 seems to share my obsession with getting the PA, and I think with good reason. It is just so powerful to have two civs co-researching techs. We want it before any other AI pair up, and we want to be the only pair for as long as possible. And we want ours before the other teams in the competition get theirs.

Mao’s power curve is at a recent plateau, so we might have to backtrack a lot to get below him for a PA later. I’d like to get it now if we can with Capac and stop having to tiptoe around our power level.

But finishing off Hatty has merits as well. So here is a plan for the next 5 turns that should make us all happy:

Maintain the war with Hatty, but for next 5 turns, heal our troops, and perhaps move into position to attack next city, but don’t attack yet.

If any city is about to finish a unit, put that one on hold and make a different unit (a cat to stop a Cossack at 1 turn to go ... just for these five turns).

Disband any warriors that are not sole garrisons (Yaros, Rostov). Also any galleys that are not needed for ferry duty.

When communism is done, revolt to state property and upload a save. That lets us explore what is on Mao's mind as well.

Alternative to uploading a save before trying a PA with Capac (while war is still on) is to ask him for it if it is a white option on the diplo screen. If he says yes, then we unleash our power and military on Hatty, then Musa.

If he says no, then we upload a save and discuss whether to make peace and see if that allows PA with Capac, or if we finish Hatty, then dump cities to reduce our power, and then see if we can make the PA with Capac.

Of course, we can always do the alternative after uploading a save, so the upload after the revolt to State property, while still at war, before trying PA with Capac, is the safest thing to do. Scout214 could play on from that after we decide what to do in that position.

I am hoping that we can make the PA during the war. DP can’t be done during war because war cancels DP. But there is no such logic for not making a PA DURING the war. Does everyone agree that making the PA with Capac during the war would be perfect?

And if Capac won't accept a PA for some reason that we don't see now (as Joemama mentioned), it is only waiting 5 turns to find out, before we can follow another plan. And we need most of those five turns to heal anyway, so I think nothing to lose with my plan above.

dV

Ronnie1 · Jan 10, 2007

I like most all of the suggestions so far. The one I do not like is revolting to State Property immediately. I thought we were considering that option as a + modifier for Mao. If we are going for a PA Capac, will switching civics now help in any way? I totally agree with dV that an immediate PA with Capac is a better option than waiting to see if we can get one with Mao or Caesar.

Alternative to uploading a save before trying a PA with Capac (while war is still on) is to ask him for it if it is a white option on the diplo screen. If he says yes, then we unleash our power and military on Hatty, then Musa.

In my limited working knowledge of the diplo screen as it relates to the PA, if the option is "white", he won't say no! If the option is red, there will be a reason or a remedy to that situation.

If the power issue is a determining factor, ie: we are #1 and "too powerful", then the obvious answer is to sail a galley(s) to China with the outdated troops and gift them all to Mao to bump him back to the top.

I think Scout can spend 5 turns researching Communism and start pounding on Memphis, bombard defenses, take out a few units, etc., and then pause as already said to see what is available.

I also like the idea of adding a different unit to head of the que to keep from bumping our power too much in the short run. Eventually, all those units will be available in a very short period of time.

da_Vinci · Jan 10, 2007

The reason to revolt to State Property would be to reduce our maintenance (how bad is it in REGYPT?), and to see if that makes any difference to what is available with Mao (if for some reason, a PA with him is a go, it would then be on the table, since C63 keeps on having that fantasy.

But if he is already friendly, maybe it doesn't matter?) For the kind of conquest we envision, I think we will want it anyway. But I could be persuaded to wait on it, if we all agree that there is no need to see how it affects Mao before we PA with Capac.

IIRC, no Cossack in REgypt is above 50% strength at this time! :eek:

One or more are at strength of 2 or so! :eek:

So even if the power issue were off the table, we would need almost 5 turns to heal up before the next action anyway. So let's be a bit patient, and not get our precious Cossacks killed off in a premature attack! :nono:

Hatty will fall faster to Cossacks at full strength.

Otherwise, I agree with Ronnie1 agreeing with me!

dV

Joemama · Jan 10, 2007

I am for 5 more turns played and more discussion. DV is right in that we will probably not be able to assault the Egyptian capital in 5 turns anyway. I pushed our units pretty hard to "liberate" northern Egypt.

I don't have access to the save, but could someone check how close we are to #1 in power on the demographics screen? I am in favor of continuing to produce units. I would guess we are talking about 2 or 3 cossacks that may be produced in 5 turns. I think the risk of these couple of units bumping us to #1 in power is outweighed by the reward of having a couple more cossacks in Egypt and finishing her off sooner. Also if we get bumped to #1, we can still disband/gift units to get back down.

Other than unit production, I agree with DV agreeing with Ronnie agreeing with DV.

da_Vinci · Jan 10, 2007

I am not at the save either, but I think only three Cossacks are in production in the entire empire, and of that I doubt more that one is due in less than 4 turns. So holding off the production may not be much of a delay at all.

I'd rather be sure that our power is not #1 in 5 turns, so that if we can execute the PA with Capac, we can then go ahead and execute all the non-Hindi! :lol:

We are about a quarter inch away on the graph from power top, so it is close.

There is a Cossack in Yekat that we could ship to Egypt, if that would make you feel better.

Do I feel a consensus emerging? :goodjob:

dV

Conquistador 63 · Jan 10, 2007

I agree with Joemama!

In fact, as he has played only 5/6 turns, he could continue and play the next 5 turns too.

This way, we would let Scout214 to have the honors of achieving our endlessly debated mid-game goal: the Permanent Alliance! :beer:

The civic debate can wait till those 5 turns, but we should keep in mind that:
. FM: medium upkeep; +1 trade route per city.
. SP: low upkeep; no distance penalty maintenance costs; +1 food for workshops & watermills.

The civik upkeep is a small and easy to determine part of the equation. OTOH, the additional revenue generated by that last :traderoute:

by running FM in :commerce:

can be still compared (for each city) now with the :commerce:

eaten in each city, due to distance penalty (can be seen with mouseover help) which would be removed by running SP. Of course the capital and the near cities tend to be better off with FM, and the more distant cities tend to be better off with SP.

No matter which choice is better right now (but someone could check - I'm away from the game), the more cities we conquer and keep, as we plan to do, better SP becomes.
Also, the advantage of getting more hammers (=more troops) by using the otherwise useless workshops & watermills fits well in our grand strategy and should be factored in.

As I see it, the issue is not whether to move to SP, but when to do it. I suggested moving to SP ASAP influenced by the wild guess that it could help us get a PA with Mao (not harming our chances of still getting one with HC), and by the assumption that Mao would be a better partner than HC. Neither of those might be true. :confused:

Joemama · Jan 10, 2007

Conquistador 63 said:
I agree with Joemama! In fact, as he has played only 5/6 turns, he could continue and play the next 5 turns too. This way, we would let Scout214 to have the honors of achieving our endlessly debated mid-game goal: the Permanent Alliance!

Unless Scout chimes in and wants to play the next 5, I will do the honor tonight (In about 5 hours). They shouldn't be very eventful turns.

da_Vinci · Jan 10, 2007

Conquistador 63 said:
I agree with Joemama! In fact, as he has played only 5/6 turns, he could continue and play the next 5 turns too. This way, we would let Scout214 to have the honors of achieving our endlessly debated mid-game goal: the Permanent Alliance!

Not a bad idea, as long as he is willing to hold off on those new units emerging for the next 5 turns

.

If we all agree, let's indicate that here immediately before Scout214 picks up the save and starts playing it (AlanH would just love seeing two of us playing on at the same time! :rolleyes:

)

dV

Addendum: I've contacted Scout214 through other channels (email) and he is aware that Joemama will play on five turns from the current save, then we will discuss. So go for it Joemama! Go rest 'em!

If you do finish new units, keep a close eye on the power chart.

dV

Ronnie1 · Jan 10, 2007

@ da_Vinci,
Thanks for the email contact with Scout214. I'm looking forward to seeing just exactly what Communism will provide. Keep your fingers crossed that we can enter a PA while at war. That would alleviate a number of issues.

Joemama · Jan 10, 2007

I have played to communism. Everyone has a red PA option because "We have not shared a war or defensive alliance long enough".

I was asked by Monty to declare on Germany, I wasn't sure what to do and said yes. This may have been bad because we got several "You declared on our friend" penalties. What ever happened to everyone being one happy Hindu family?

DV will be happy that I kept us under the power limit (barely) with several units backed up in queues. The troops are ready to push through Egypt. I say let Scout finish Egypt off and then try to get into a DP.

Ronnie1 · Jan 11, 2007

Nice Job Joemama!!

Logistics first

The current roster order is

Joemama - just bashed some Egyptians and discovered the holy grail of Communism!
Scout214 - UP NOW
Ronnie1 - on deck
da_Vinci - in the hole
Conquistador63 - waiting

Igelkott - Temporary leave of absence

Confussion - Injured reserve until further notice

SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Chieftain

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Chieftain

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Chieftain

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Chieftain

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Chieftain

Deity

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