SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

[Scout214]

Turn Summary:

303:
Traded Economics to Alex for Divine Right, 130
Traded Education to Monty for 170
Avoided trades to higher nations of anything they could use to catch up
and to non-Hindu nations
Started attack on Memphis

304:
Mao entered Golden Age, got Taj Mahal
Monty switched to Bureaucracy
Fred switched to Serfdom, Vassalage
Memphis fell, no losses

305:
Offered Peace to Fred for +2 per turn - agreed
Offered OB with Fred - agreed

306:
Traded Stone to Monty for Ivory (his offer)
Traded Divine Right to Mao for 310
Mao wanted to trade Constitution to us for Military Tradition and 300+ (declined)

308:
Hatty is no more - took last city - suffered loss of one Cossack
Left troops and ships in strategic places for next player to determine
Did not offer to give city to Capac
MAO AGREED TO DEFENSIVE PACT
No other nation was willing to do either DP or PA yet so took path of least resistance

312:
Washington converted to Hindu
neglected to check trade possibilities with him
Toku entered Golden Age
Vicky switched to Representation
Delhi celebrated "We love the Prime Minister Day"

313:
Temp lowered research to 60% to conserve cash
One turn from finishing Electricity
Cash 378
VP 1714 gain of 98
We are atop Power scale in our game but not by much
Did not disband anything - left to better experienced player

 

[Scout214]

1. Disband Galleys, Caravels if not needed
2. More than enough Cossacks if someone attacks
3. Keep heading for Mass Media - can pick up Chemistry, etc., after we get UN going. Sooner we start the election process the better, could take a while. No more research detours for now.
4. May simply need sufficient time to pass for Mao to agree to PA
5. Make nice with Hindu nations that aren't thrilled with us. Garner every vote we can.
6. We have a Great Engineer in Moscow - save it to build UN

 

[da_Vinci]

Scout214 just made all of my post below obsolete while I was writing it!

Do we know why Capac would not make a DP? We may be in for 40 tuns of waiting with Mao, vs maybe 20 or fewer turns with Capac if we could get him to agree. Is Mao worth the wait?

It could prove very difficult to have neither us or Mao at the top of the power chart when it comes time to try to make the PA. So do we need to break the pact with Mao and try to make one with Capac?

The GE is great news!

Let me have a look at the save now ...

dV



The after Joemama post:

Bummer about the PA not doable yet, but it appears it can be done during war, as I expected.

I was hoping that the rule was shared war (any duration) or DP long enough, but I guess it is (shared war or DP) long enough. C63's source talked about 40 turns to get it. How long have we been at war? Looks like 13 Joemama turns and ?? C63 turns. About halfway there. We now have what, 10 or so turns of war with Germany before we can make peace?

Toku has made a power comeback, so maybe if we sell him some techs, he wil pass us and even Mao. Or sell Mao techs if we need to down the road.

If we kill off Hatty, end the shared war which might be too soon, but can't make a DP while the war with Germany continues. If we can stand the war weariness, maybe we take Memphis but then leave Helio so the war continues, and go get some German cities. That builds up shared war time with Capac. We could pop rush temples, theatres and colosseums to fight off the unhappiness. We will need these for future wars anyway.

If the PA comes in during that time, great. If not, we make peace with Germany when available (after taking Cologne and Berlin, I would think, and maybe we give them to Capac if we need to reduce our power), kill Helio, and go DP with Capac until the PA.

Or, we could take longer to DP with Mao for a PA with him, but that gets dicey with the power issue for him - can we keep Toku ahead of Mao? So I think Capac will do just fine.

Looks like getting that first PA is not so easy. So maybe out competitors are not so close to that either. If we can get it well before other teams, so much the better.

Need to trade techs for gold, to get science back up.

Bombay is now only 88% Russian. Glad to see the libarary coming.

Kill Hatty, or prolong that war and kill Germany? Our next fork in the road!

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

Party Time !!!

Capac will make a DP with us, and we can still keep the one with Mao !!!
We can hedge our bets! Perfect !!!

I'm a happy camper !!!

Looks like Mao is the better partner, if we can solve the power issue. Toku is near the top, so there might be a way. But a sure thing with Capac sooner might not be so bad either. I like our choices.

Just remember, no more wars until the PA (they break the DPs)

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

This has been a fascinating game. I'd like to thank everybody for being so committed to playing & discussing it.

We're now entering a most unknown environment, at least for me. Earlier today I took a quick peek at the save after Joemama's turn. Some things I noticed that puzzled me:

. We had declared on Fred by Monte's request a few turns earlier, but this lunatic wasn't at war with Fred anymore!
. In the diplo screen with HC, if we selected "let's discuss something else", it showed "why don't you attack...?". Has anyone ever seen this in a Civ game? If we selected this, it showed the egyptian & german cities! We didn't have DP or PA with him, and HC wasn't even at war with Fred!! Of course I didn't proceed and select any city. Maybe he would just refuse...or would he just obey?

As I write this I notice dV's post about the availability of the DP with HC. I didn't knew we could run more than one at a time. Very nice! It might be just a matter of time for us to get the PA.

Do you guys agree we might need some more discussion before Ronnie1's turnset? I haven't opened last save but my general thoughts, aside Scout214's wise suggestions, are the following:
. keep building infrastructure as needed (maybe the cash buildings: 6 banks for Wall Street, markets and grocers in largest cities, culture in cities which need them, etc.) and cossacks for the possible future wars after we get our PA.
. tech trade is still good. Representation if still available is very nice as it is on the path for democracy and corporation(+1 trade route, Wall Street), which also be available from trade in the near future.

The most relevant issue in the near future is, though, will we pursue a front door or back door diplo win? Those will require different approaches.
. front door: hardest part will be to select an opponent. The likely ones are in our circle of friends, so it will split the hindu community votes, even if we play Mr.Nice Guy to everyone. Although it could be the fastest route, it seems an unlikely scenario to me.
. back door: after getting the PA and teched to MM, trade or backfill useful techs - the military ones and Biology. Conquer until needed (if possible, our opponent friends). Mostly a self-voted win.
What do you guys think?

 

[da_Vinci]

Running off to the dentist, lost a small piece of filling last night. Not much time now, but ...

Yes, need some discussion before we proceed ... who to PA with? We need the one with max pop, that can be done with certainty.

We could scout Mao and Capac with our Cossacks, to see how much pop difference there is. PA with Capac may be faster and easier (power wise), so that may be the route.

I see "Why don't you attack" if I have a PA and we are at war, but surprised to see it otherwise.

Off to the torture chamber (don't like going to the dentist)

dV

 

[Scout214]

Once the troops we had in the pipeline were done, I started to build more infrastructure. Trying to be mindful about the posts re too much power, and agree with C63. Started universities, observatories and banks mostly. Theatre to be followed by courthouse in our new acquisitions. Got a couple more Hindu missionaries for our newest city additions, too.

Capac wasn't willing to do a DP during my turn. If he is now, great. He briefly moved ahead of Caesar in score during my set. Also mindful, though, about having conflicting DP's with two nations, per dV's post a while back.

Having seen a bit of the UN functionality in the joint test game dV and I have been playing (he has a PA, founded UN but is having trouble getting enough votes to win - much more diverse religions and we paid little heed to stepping on toes along the way), it seems to me that once we get UN we should take a direct shot at winning by vote to see who is with us and who opposes. Then we can decide whether to conquer some more votes based on who votes how. Don't know much about setting up the alternative candidate but suspect a Hindon't is better than a Hindu.

 

[Scout214]

Seems to me that by the time we actually have UN, we will have put in the 40 turns with Mao in a DP. Already have 5 turns logged. If power rankings are a problem, we should easily be able to disband unneeded military units, trade techs to the right nations to improve their standing or give away a city or two. Capac could be easier to get to PA but Mao has the better score.

 

[Joemama]

On who to PA with the way I see it:

Mao pros - He has a higher population, as well as a seemingly higher capacity to research. He has more power, but I don't think that matters. I don't think the AI is smart enough to wage an effective intercontinental battle. If we want cities taken, we will have to take them ourself.

HC pros - It will be easier to get a PA with him sooner. Teaming with him allows us to backstab Mao if needed.

Everyone feel free to add or refute items on this list. Hopefully this will help us decide a direction.

I think we should definatly beeline to the U.N. That first vote will tell us all we need to know about victory. I suppose wars are out until we get that PA, but I am still for having some more fun with cossacks. Couldn't we pick out our next target and mass some troops?

 

[Ronnie1]

@ All,

It looks like everyone is in favor of more discussion before I proceed, me included! I can play anytime over the next two days so that is not an issue for me, but C63 said he was leaving for a week.

@ C63, Do you want to play some turns before me or do you want me to play soon enough that you can play in the regular order before you have to leave? You can swap spots with me if you wish, or with dV if he is willing.

The current roster order is

Scout214 - just played
Ronnie1 - UP NOW
da_Vinci - on deck
Conquistador63 - in the hole
Joemama - waiting

Igelkott - Temporary leave of absence

Confussion - Injured reserve until further notice

RE Strategy:
I think trading SM to Mao for Constitution, WM and his 20G is a good trade. There is about 1400G available for trade from Hindus and another 560G available from Kublai Kahn, Louis and Isabella. We want it all IMO.

There are a number of current trades that we can renegotiate for a small gain in gold per turn.

We can sign as many defensive pacts as we want. I'm in favor of signing only the ones that lead to our potential PA targets. Too many DP's will eventually draw us into a war.

Current Civics: Representation, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Free Market, Organized Religion.
I know we have talked about switching to State Property, are there any other civic changes that we want to consider?

Are we interested in The Kremlin?

Pop rush in Memphis instead of starvation. I plan on pop rushing as many buildings as necessary to get below the starvation threshhold. Switch to Granary and rush for 2 pop will do it, overflow back to Theatre, or rush Theatre and overflow into Granary, not sure which option is better.

Actually, after thinking through most of this post, the next 10 turns will probably not be very exciting or involved. I'm leaning towards playing sooner rather than later.

 

[da_Vinci]

After checking with AlanH to be sure that opening an old save was legit after downloading a later one (it is as long as you don't play it, just like we don't play the current save - unless we are up, of course )

This has been a fascinating game. I'd like to thank everybody for being so committed to playing & discussing it.

I second this wholeheartedly! Good job Gypsy Kings!

We had declared on Fred by Monte's request a few turns earlier, but this lunatic wasn't at war with Fred anymore!

I have had the AI pull that one on me before ... ask you to join the war, then they make peace next turn ! Even worse, I can't find a diplo plus for having said yes! Maybe we just avoid a diplo minus?

In the diplo screen with HC, if we selected "let's discuss something else", it showed "why don't you attack...?". Has anyone ever seen this in a Civ game? If we selected this, it showed the egyptian & german cities! We didn't have DP or PA with him, and HC wasn't even at war with Fred!! Of course I didn't proceed and select any city. Maybe he would just refuse...or would he just obey?

As I said before, standard stuff for a PA. In the PA, the answer is always "we will do our best". Also, the discuss something else has "why don't you research ...?" under a PA, and they always do what you ask for that. This is why a fast PA could cut our time to UN in half or at least by a third.

I note that this option does not appear with Mao, even though he is friendly too. Now we were +13 with Mao, and +17 with Capac, so perhaps that makes a difference, but more likely, it is due to having shared a war. But I can't say for sure.

Well, at that time Capac was still at war with Hatty. So maybe while we are currently sharing a war, we can ask him to share in our other war. However, asking him do declare on Frederick is in red, so not an option.

Final thought ... because we can ask him to attack Hatty, we get the list of all cities we are at war with, whether he is at war with them or not. I suspect that asking him to attack Berlin would be refused, as he would not declare war if asked. Sort of makes sense, I guess. Since we are sharing a war, maybe friendly has nothing to do with it. Maybe we'd have the same list with Monte if he were still at war with Fred (and he was only Pleased).

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

Capac wasn't willing to do a DP during my turn. If he is now, great. He briefly moved ahead of Caesar in score during my set. Also mindful, though, about having conflicting DP's with two nations, per dV's post a while back.

Do you recall the reason why Capac would not DP, considering we just shared a war? Strikes me as odd, but Mao may have just passed us in power on your last turn, and maybe that is the difference (you were top power most of your turn).

Only disadvantage to two DP is more chances of being drawn into war. But DP patner goes to war too, so that is shared war, just as good if it happens. And I doubt that any AI will declare on the team of us and Mao.

Having seen a bit of the UN functionality in the joint test game dV and I have been playing (he has a PA, founded UN but is having trouble getting enough votes to win - much more diverse religions and we paid little heed to stepping on toes along the way), it seems to me that once we get UN we should take a direct shot at winning by vote to see who is with us and who opposes. Then we can decide whether to conquer some more votes based on who votes how. Don't know much about setting up the alternative candidate but suspect a Hindon't is better than a Hindu.

Yes, in that game the front door is tough. I think that if we can get a vote before the AI start pairing up, that is worth doing. If we could pair with Mao, then Capac is a friend but not big enough to be voting opponent (Toku most likely), so we get us, Mao and Capac votes (and don't any other than friendly abstain?)

Of course, we first have to win the secretary general vote, don't we?

If we get the PA early, we can war on the non Hindu while we get to MM and UN. Then try a front door, see how far we are from that. Then, if no good front door options, kick in the back door

That is the advantage of PA with Capac: if we can get it in 10 to 20 turns, instead of 40 with Mao, then we have 20 extra turns of unfettered power to wage war on non-Hindi, while our Cossacks are still supreme. If we wait for Mao, that is 20 turns of tiptoeing around our power level that we have to do, and we can't war until we get the PA. So the back door diplo is better served by PA with Capac as far as time goes, right?

Plus, just what will it take for Mao to not be power leader, if we are not power leader (both conditions of a PA with Mao)? It will take pimping Toku. I suppose techs and troops, but if Mao is a better manager, it will take alot of troops or techs to keep him up with Mao. And Capac is friendly with Caesar, so those two will pair if we pair with Mao, and I fear the front door is still very difficult. Those second PA's come in about 10 turns in my experience, even if the first one takes longer.

Lets do a population count ... Mao has Shanghai 9; Xian 11(old?), Bejing 12; Shandong 5; Guangzhou 12(old?); Chengdu 10(old? tundra); Kaifeng 2(old? all ice); Nanjing 10; Tianjin 8; Macau 3 (tundra); Hangzhou 4(tundra ice); Ningbo 2 (tundra ice). This is 88 pop if current and I am counting right.

Capac has 9% of the land now, second to us. His cities: Corih 4 (some desert); Vilcab 5 (old? some desert); Vilcas 5 (old?); Huamanga 5; Cuzco 12 (old?); Tiwanaku 8 (old?); Ollant 8 (old?); Elephantine 7; Machu P 7 (old?); Vitcos 2 (south of Izzy, on ice); total of 63. But fewer igloo cities, so maybe long term pop potential is better? Especially if we send workers to build the right infrastructure (can we get into his city screens and direct production? That would be sweet !! )

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

On who to PA with the way I see it:

Mao pros - He has a higher population, as well as a seemingly higher capacity to research. He has more power, but I don't think that matters. I don't think the AI is smart enough to wage an effective intercontinental battle. If we want cities taken, we will have to take them ourself.

HC pros - It will be easier to get a PA with him sooner. Teaming with him allows us to backstab Mao if needed.

Everyone feel free to add or refute items on this list. Hopefully this will help us decide a direction.

I think we should definatly beeline to the U.N. That first vote will tell us all we need to know about victory. I suppose wars are out until we get that PA, but I am still for having some more fun with cossacks. Couldn't we pick out our next target and mass some troops?

More fun with Cossacks argues for PA with Capac. Can get back to warring sooner. Musa an obvious next target. (Or not ... see below)

The only reason to go for PA with Mao is if we think that gets us to front door diplo (us, Mao, Capac is still a friend but not the voting rival, as Toku will be). How many votes is that? 17% us, 9% Mao, guess 7% Capac ... 33% is not enough to guarantee us the Sec General, is it? Much less the win.

Well, Saladin is friendly, so what, another 5%? OH, WHEN DID MUSA BECOME HINDI? I always thought he was something else!

Too many piddly nations to need to be friendly to win front door, it seems.

And very hard to keep Mao and us off the power lead for that long.

Capac may suit back door better, as we assimilate (Borg, anyone? ) the weak, or even the stong, on the way to UN. 20 extra turns of war is not to be sneezed at.

And we might detour to chem and steel if our war effort needs it, as no point in having UN if we don't yet have the votes. Early cannon may speed our reaching the needed votes.

We could set up Khan as our opponnent if we go after Mao and Caesar !!! Early PA with Capac, quick detour to cannons (quick with paired research), and hammer Caesar and Mao. Even if we don't take cities, we can raze improvements. Then, if any other Hindi still like us, we can see if we have a front door. That is if score determines the voting rival (or is it pop, or power?)

So I am thinking that fast PA with Capac is the way to go. Mao just seems to take too long, requires giving Toku too much stuff (especially troops ... lets use them ourselves), and no guarantee that we can keep Mao off the power top, and no guarantee that Mao gives us a front door.

If we PA with Capac, then do we go right after Mao and Caesar, or do we eat the weak and see if a front door works?

While we are peacing our way to a PA, lets send the Cossacks on recon to get accurate pop counts of our two potential partners.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

The main thing I see right now, is that whoever is playing needs to check the Diplomacy options EVERY turn. I think we should take the first PA option that is available to us. After we form our PA, I don't think it will matter who else forms partnerships. Warring will become a little more difficult, only because there will be two fronts at the minimum (if we are warring with Hindi). I don't think any of the non-hindu will ever form any PA's, unless they switch to free religion, or make some other change that will signifcantly alter their relations (I don't know what other changes could make that much of a difference). I think we are close!!!

 

[da_Vinci]

I think trading SM to Mao for Constitution, WM and his 20G is a good trade. There is about 1400G available for trade from Hindus and another 560G available from Kublai Kahn, Louis and Isabella. We want it all IMO.

Just don't trade with Mao's or Capac's worst enemy. The list of personna non grata is usually only about 5 or so, and worth not trading with them to be safe.

We can sign as many defensive pacts as we want. I'm in favor of signing only the ones that lead to our potential PA targets. Too many DP's will eventually draw us into a war.

Only other one to sign is with Capac. If the PA becomes available during your turns, you can just wait on it, or post the save early.

Current Civics: Representation, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Free Market, Organized Religion.
I know we have talked about switching to State Property, are there any other civic changes that we want to consider?

If we think we are done whipping at some point, maybe caste system? +3 sci per spec, unlimited spec is synergistic. Might run this while at peace, and back to slavery when we are conquering again.

Are we interested in The Kremlin?

I have never built it before (not that I don't like it, never had the opportunity), but it sounds ideal for using with univ suff. But are units more important? During peace, we should build happiness buildings (theatre, temple, colusseum) in prep for future wars. Also getting constitution for jails at some point.

Actually, after thinking through most of this post, the next 10 turns will probably not be very exciting or involved. I'm leaning towards playing sooner rather than later.

Pretty true: trade for gold, DP with Capac, keep our power down, and wait ...

If R1 goes now, and C63 wants to go next, fine with me. Or, since C63 may be our resident expert on diplo wins, maybe we take a week off until he gets back? Unless we have clear decisions before then on Mao or Capac, and early attack on Mao or Caesar or eat the weak first (if we go with Capac).

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

If I play today, da_Vinci can play on Friday or Saturday and C63 could still play before he has to leave. Just food for thought.

 

[da_Vinci]

The main thing I see right now, is that whoever is playing needs to check the Diplomacy options EVERY turn.

I could not agree more!!

I think we should take the first PA option that is available to us.

That is what I think, and no doubt it will be Capac.

Which leaves us with two options ... eat the weak, and see if we can get a front door, if not, eat more weak or eat the strong.

Eat the strong right away. Having the PA with the tech boost may allow us a military tech superiority over Mao and Caesar that we won't ever have again, and this may be the time to strike (after the PA and some research of weapons). Before they form a DP and we must fight both at once. This might be the fastest back door.

Remember, we need 60% of pop for the vote, without getting 51% of the land (triggers domination "victory" ). So we want population density. Or, maybe we want cities with little land and lots of sea (so maybe not Mao?). Musa seems to have space for more cities in his land, can we get more pop by founding more cities in the same space? With biology, and shrewd planning, we may get our pop with less war than we thought!

And of course, what are the other teams doing? Are they as close to the PA as we are? Is there vote setting up better? Hard to see how. All we can do is the fastest win our game will allow. Seems to me that the pure front door paired with Mao just won't happen, and we will be better with the fast PA with Capac, and a back door diplo.

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

If I play today, da_Vinci can play on Friday or Saturday and C63 could still play before he has to leave. Just food for thought.

I would bet that the Capac PA comes before my turn would end. Will we have a certain way forward in that event by that time?

No harm in thinking about this point of the game more, and not rushing, if we don't have a consensus. Go with Capac seems to be emerging, but after that, eat the weak, or eat the strong? Maybe be start with the weak as we perhaps detour to cannons, and later eat the strong?

As I say, C63 could go after R1 if that works out better.

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

I think we should keep the ball rolling. Most everyone is able and willing to play, so let's do it. I say play tonight Ronnie1, if da Vinci can play tomorrow, I can play my turn until Saturday; I'm leaving on Sunday morning.

Re. some ideas and questions posted above:
1. I'm NOT a diplo expert, and I think there still is a lot of uncertainty on the AI voting decisions. But what I do know is that voting (for secretary and diplo win) is based solely on pop count. But which pop? There are 2 different ones: the 1, 2, 3 etc. and the 10,000, 25,000 or something like that shown next to the city name in the city screen and in the demographics screen. For voting it is the sum of 12 + 9 + etc pops of the cities of the voting civs.
2. Updated sizes of cities can also be obtained by trading maps (at least for the cities of the civ who traded you the map.
3. Ideal scenario: teaming with Mao having Toku as opponent, then poisoning his relations with our friends. Realistic scenario: get the 1st PA available. I'm for the latter.
4. I'm in favor of caste system too (after selected whipping of starving cities in Egypt). Other benefits: our needed voting pop will be safer from our whipping-lover rulers. Also, we can set GP farms as we want (btw if we could get a G.Artist he would help lightbulb Mass Media).

 

[Conquistador 63]

Just opened latest save. Toku (and someone else - Saladin?) also willing to DP. Should we?
Also if we can, avoid trading MT to delay AI getting DPs themselves.
And if and when we go to war, my picks would be Izzy (attacking from Vicky's lands) and Louis, from Izzy's lands later. But that can change later.