SGOTM 06 - Xteam

[ShannonCT]

A Gem resource tile on grass? That would be mighty generous!

I think we are all asking the same question, in which direction is the Warrior move most likely to reveal something that would make us alter the plan to settle on the Dyes tile? I can't think of many things that would change that...

I think there would need to be a high food resource elsewhere for us to change our settling on the dyes. That would mean we'd be looking for pigs, sheep, or corn. We might find this to the 2SW of the dyes, or to the 1NE of the bananas, so either move could reveal something to change our settle. I have no problem with moving the warrior SW.

@ShannonCT - Looks to me like you are cleared to move the Warrior SW, save the game, take a screen shot and post it for discussion. The only other question I have is whether you would have time to play through to Animal Husbandry prior to you departure on the 17th? If not, please post because it looks like the horses want out of the corral...

EDIT - Just thought that maybe the Warrior move isn't settled yet?

I should have plenty of time to play in the next few days as long as we have reached a consensus.

It could be that there is a food resource tile 2SW of the dyes and a couple of forests (very helpful) that could appear at the edge of the fog to the west after moving the warrior. Highly unlikely, but I think it would argue for settling W of the dyes. Still, you may be able to argue that moving the warrior NE could reveal something that we would be more pained to miss out on (without losing the bananas but losing a turn perhaps?). What could that be?

I should point out that moving the warrior SW will only reveal one tile that wouldn't already be in our fat cross if we settle on the dyes (the tile 2SW of the dyes) and that moving the warrior NE would probably only reveal one non-jungle tile (the tile SE of the bananas is jungle). I don't know whether either tile is more likely to contain a resource (can another resource actually appear adjacent to bananas?). Of course there could be pigs or sheep on a hilltop farther to the east that could be revealed by moving the warrior NE, but we'd lose two turns moving the settler 2E, as well as the 1 GPT from the dyes. Each turn of delay in settling costs 4 food/hammers and 9(?) commerce. Settling 1E costs 34 food/hammers, 9 commerce, and 1 commerce per turn. Settling 1SW costs 2-3 commerce per turn (the warrior first, worker whip strategy depends on working a 3food tile after border pop, and this can still be done with the cows but the cow is 0 commerce) and banana access. I think it is highly unlikely that moving the warrior in either direction will change the optimal decision.

Unless there is a strong objection from Fred or JT, I will plan on moving the warrior SW later tonight (5-6 hours) as per the majority vote, without moving the settler, and I'll post a screenshot afterwards.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Unless there is a strong objection from Fred or JT, I will plan on moving the warrior SW later tonight (5-6 hours) as per the majority vote, without moving the settler, and I'll post a screenshot afterwards.

No strong objection since moving E or SE is almost as bad as moving SW. I think we will end up settling on the dyes anyway.

Btw. did you consider that moving SW will also mean that we work a gold hill that is not on a river bank thus costing an additional 1 gpt.

 

[ShannonCT]

Btw. did you consider that moving SW will also mean that we work a gold hill that is not on a river bank thus costing an additional 1 gpt.

I did. 1 lost on dyes, 1 on gold hill, and one on bananas. Not a happy prospect.

 

[Frederiksberg]

OK, my vote is still for warrior NE but as far as I'm concerned you can go ahead and move SW unless some of the others change their mind and vote for NE instead.

 

[leif erikson]

Been slow in replying as I have been play testing.

Should there be something enticing enough for us to move east, it would have to make up for 10 lost commerce (8 for the Palace +1 for the city +1 for working the Banana tile) for settling a turn later plus a +1 lost from not settling on the Dye tile, plus the hammers lost by settling on a forest tile. If we find something that good, the pay-off does appear to me to be greater, in the short run, than settling to the SW of the start.

Settling to the SW, we would have to make up +2 GPT (one from settling the Dye tile and one from the Gold Hill being on a river) and the loss of the Banana tile and its +1 GPT.

I can now see the benefit of the initial move of the Warrior to the Banana tile. In the end, it seems that it comes down to a flip of the coin to me. The only other thing that entices me to move to the Banana tile is those darn blue circles. Still make me think there has to be an additional resource there, even though the testing showed me it doesn't matter.

Seems we have . In my mind, ShannonCT, as the mouse holder, knows what we all think the pro's and con's are and so I put it in his hand to do what he sees fit. I will not be upset with either decision.

If anyone feels really strongly about one way or another, please speak up now or forever....

 

[rrau]

Has anyone tested past the first few moves? I can't get research for advanced units or economy to give me adequate units. I'm attacking longbows with axes. We won't win the game that way.

 

[leif erikson]

Has anyone tested past the first few moves? I can't get research for advanced units or economy to give me adequate units. I'm attacking longbows with axes. We won't win the game that way.

Yes, I beat them to Construction and used Cats and War Elephants against them. I also beat them to Maces. Haven't gone much beyond that though...

 

[DJMGator13]

Should my installs be okay if Asset Checker 2.0 passes for everything except the old van. HOF1.74 SGOTM5 mod? My Warlords version was only modded to 2.13.001 so I had to update it and it then I had to redo the BTS mod again.

I'll open up one of the test games.

 

[leif erikson]

Should my installs be okay if Asset Checker 2.0 passes for everything except the old van. HOF1.74 SGOTM5 mod? My Warlords version was only modded to 2.13.001 so I had to update it and it then I had to redo the BTS mod again.

I'll open up one of the test games.

Yes, the test games will tell you if you configuration is working. The actual save is available, so you could try loading that as well.

The HoF 1.74 SGOTM05 Mod shouldn't work because it uses the .dll's that came with Vanilla, not the ones installed by . So that is a good thing...

 

[Cactus Pete]

Yes, you understand me correctly. Moving SW will cost us 2 gpt and the bananas. Maybe gems would be worth moving for but hardly anything else.

I would move east if any food resource or gems/ivory is there. A resource that needs Calendar may not be worth the trouble.

This is likely much ado about nothing. Moving east would also cost 2gpt, plus a forest and a turn. So you're arguing that having another food resource is worth losing a forest and a turn and 2gpt. Probably so. It seems to come down, then, to the unlikely prospect of gaining a food resource at the price of losing a turn and a forest vs. the even less likely prospect of replacing the bananas with another probably slightly better food resource that is not on a river and gaining a couple of western forests. Like to get SCT's thoughts (and anyone else who has played a test) before we decide.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

My initial thoughts were: Option 1) Settle on dye on first move or Option 2) Move settler NW on first move for the hope of a strong resource (2nd gold or food resource). If he sees nothing, then return him to original spot and settle on dyes on turn 2.

My preference is Option 1 (less risk and it makes use of the strong visible start we have). You can count my vote for settling on dyes.

Option 2 is wishing for an additional resource gift to an already generous starting spot. Losing a turn is a big risk in a game where early turns can make all the difference in shutting down an opposing AI.

For moving the warrior, I think finding food NE is more rewarding than the move W or SW scenario. So my vote for moving warrior NE.

 

[DJMGator13]

I just had the opportunity to run thru leif's #2 test game. I stayed on course with SCT details from earlier post. Then I founded a second city by the ivory and a 3rd city by the horses. I created a stack of chariots and went on the offenses, razing 3 CART cities until I lost 11 chariots on their walled capital defended by 3 archers and a spear. Spain had axes and archers but nobody had sent anything more than 1 pillaging warrior inside my border.

I whipped the first worker, chopped the second one, then used 1 chop on a settler and one chop on a barrack. This is the one major drawback of the dye city - only 4 forest, so any movement that loses one of them is bad. But a move that possibly adds forest is good and that may only occur by going east.

I'm starting to think the better warrior move is actually the NE move. It has the greater potential gain because we are pretty sure we are going to settle on the dyes. If he sees nothing new then the settler proceeds as normal.

BTW, at one point I had an injured warrior (1.6) on a grassland tile and the AI did not attack him.

 

[ShannonCT]

I see the consensus has shifted to moving the warrior NE. I will now move the warrior in that direction and move the settler onto the dyes to make up for the warrior not moving SW. If there is a hill or mountain 2SW of the dyes, the settler move will reveal it. And if there are any pigs or sheep on hills to the east, our warrior will reveal them. Screenshot coming soon...

 

[leif erikson]

I see the consensus has shifted to moving the warrior NE. I will now move the warrior in that direction and move the settler onto the dyes to make up for the warrior not moving SW. If there is a hill or mountain 2SW of the dyes, the settler move will reveal it. And if there are any pigs or sheep on hills to the east, our warrior will reveal them. Screenshot coming soon...

If you spot something interesting with the Warrior, please do not move the Settler yet!
If nothing shows, then ...

 

[ShannonCT]

Turn 0 (4000BC): Moved warrior 1NE. No new resources revealed. Forested hill in the distance. Moved settler 1S. No new resources revealed. The tile 2SW of the dyes is water, likely ocean. We appear to be on the West coast of a continent. Settler still has 1 movement point left to settle on dyes or move.

Fat cross if settling on dyes would contain two coastal tiles. Moving settler 1W would reveal one or two additional coastal tiles. Settling on dyes still seems optimal.

Discuss.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Looks like a no brainer: settle on the dyes. Did you ever work out our minor differences in timing to AH and the initiation of cow pasturing?

 

[leif erikson]

Looks like a no brainer: settle on the dyes. Did you ever work out our minor differences in timing to AH and the initiation of cow pasturing?

Agreed, ready to rock and roll!!

 

[ShannonCT]

Looks like a no brainer: settle on the dyes. Did you ever work out our minor differences in timing to AH and the initiation of cow pasturing?

OK, I went through the Test 2 again, and I think I've figured out where the difference was coming from. After the worker is finished mining the gold, he can be sent directly to the forest between the banana and cow for immediate chopping. If he does this, the second worker arrives on the cow early, and has to sit on them for 1 turn. Instead, if after mining the gold, the worker goes to the bananas and works on the farm for two turns, and then moves over to chop the forest, the second worker arrives on the same turn as AH and spends 1 turn just moving there, but the first worker wastes no moves and can begin pasturizing the cows on the same turn as AH finishes. The third option is that after the worker finishes mining the gold, he spends 1 turn farming the bananas, and then moves to the forest. In this case, the second worker arrives on the cows at just the right time, but the first worker ends up sitting on the cows for 1 turn.

In either case where a worker is sitting on the cows for 1 turn waiting for AH to finish, the pasture is done on Turn 43. In the case where the first worker farms the bananas for 2 turns before moving to the forest, the pasture is done on Turn 44.

I think we should act in favor of finishing the pasture at the earliest possible date.

I noticed in the settings that goody huts have not been turned off. Does anyone know under what conditions it is and isn't possible to get barbs from a hut? If our second warrior finds a hut, I dont want to do something disasterous.

If no one objects to settling on the dyes, I will play play 40 turns tomorrow, in no less than 12 hours, following the moves of the practice game I posted.

 

[Cactus Pete]

OK, I went through the Test 2 again, and I think I've figured out where the difference was coming from. After the worker is finished mining the gold, he can be sent directly to the forest between the banana and cow for immediate chopping. If he does this, the second worker arrives on the cow early, and has to sit on them for 1 turn. Instead, if after mining the gold, the worker goes to the bananas and works on the farm for two turns, and then moves over to chop the forest, the second worker arrives on the same turn as AH and spends 1 turn just moving there, but the first worker wastes no moves and can begin pasturizing the cows on the same turn as AH finishes. The third option is that after the worker finishes mining the gold, he spends 1 turn farming the bananas, and then moves to the forest. In this case, the second worker arrives on the cows at just the right time, but the first worker ends up sitting on the cows for 1 turn.

In either case where a worker is sitting on the cows for 1 turn waiting for AH to finish, the pasture is done on Turn 43. In the case where the first worker farms the bananas for 2 turns before moving to the forest, the pasture is done on Turn 44. That makes perfect sense to me. The turn wasted in your methods is spent farming the bananas in mine, but you're probably right that this efficiency is not as important as getting the cow pastured ASAP.

I think we should act in favor of finishing the pasture at the earliest possible date.

I noticed in the settings that goody huts have not been turned off. Does anyone know under what conditions it is and isn't possible to get barbs from a hut? If our second warrior finds a hut, I dont want to do something disasterous. At Prince level I don't think barbs are very likely, probably worth the risk, but I don't know the probabilities -- quessing one of our teammates does.

If no one objects to settling on the dyes, I will play play 40 turns tomorrow, in no less than 12 hours, following the moves of the practice game I posted.

No objection here.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Yes, settle on the dye and you are good to go .

As far as I can see from your test game description playing 40 turns means that we have researched BW and AH before you stop. So we will know if copper or horses are nearby and can plan for the 2nd city in the discussion after your turn set.

Good luck!