SGOTM 06 - Xteam

[DJMGator13]

Yes, India may only have been able to settle the city that Gator has identified after, say, Delhi expanded. Criticize this reasoning: If the new Indian city that we've just discovered is not on the western-most tile of a possible separate land mass, then we would probably have to raze it, construct a new city to the extreme west, and expand it in order to proceed further west.

Do I interpret correctly that a peninsula city would only access the upper ?, while a cow city would access both. It could be argued that the probability of the southern ? being land is twice that of the northern ?, as it is adjacent to two identified land tiles, rather than just one.

We have the same problem even if the crossing is only 3 tiles across (coast, ocean, coast). See below.



Again, I tried both the forest and Cow Island. I think this was part of Gyathaar's special map setup. Thebes can't be moved 1E or the ocean tiles lose the characteristic of displaying no commerce (as shown by the red circles). I was able to add a few more land tiles to create a 3 tile crossing but it still won't produce a culture bridge.

Gator, have you used your high-resolution technique to investigate our entire perimeter?

Yes, and I did not see anything else at the current time. I suspect our wb is close but nothing is showing.

Where are we now on land tiles identified vs. tiles needed for Domination?

I haven't counted them yet. I think JT did last time, not sure if he has a quick way to add to his prior figure?

 

[ShannonCT]

Criticize this reasoning: If the new Indian city that we've just discovered is not on the western-most tile of a possible separate land mass, then we would probably have to raze it, construct a new city to the extreme west, and expand it in order to proceed further west.

If that city is reachable by culture bridge, we might have to not attack it right away to preserve the bridge. But all of India must be reachable by its own galleys, so if we could make a bridge, there must be some way to capture all of India.

Do I interpret correctly that a peninsula city would only access the upper ?, while a cow city would access both. It could be argued that the probability of the southern ? being land is twice that of the northern ?, as it is adjacent to two identified land tiles, rather than just one.

I can verify from testing that if there was a purple tile on either of those question marks, we would be able to see it if we re-unfog the tiles next to them. It's been 25+ turns since we last explored that area, so we should get a galley over there ASAP and then we'll know if a bridge will work.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Gator, it is not clear to me whether you think it is posible for there to be a purple tile where SCT has a ?. If so, and we get a galley out to verify that there is one, will we be able to tell whether it is a coastal or an ocean tile?

Best way to get a galley there would seem to be to chop the forest east of Ironsite.

 

[DJMGator13]

Gator, it is not clear to me whether you think it is posible for there to be a purple tile where SCT has a ?. If so, and we get a galley out to verify that there is one, will we be able to tell whether it is a coastal or an ocean tile?

Best way to get a galley there would seem to be to chop the forest east of Ironsite.

I can't tell. What I see is the edge of what appears to be a rounded corner. Here is a full size screenie.



I've placed a redline outside the purple border, so the corner is actually more tight than I've drawn.




The fog will hide the true border so getting a galley or a border expansion from Cow Island will display the info about the 2 question marked tiles.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"The fog will hide the true border so getting a galley or a border expansion from Cow Island will display the info about the 2 question-marked tiles."

(Sorry, but I can't get resolution beyone 1224x on my computer, and thus your screen shots don't show anything to me.) This statement implies that you think we will be able to tell whether SCT's ? tiles are ocean or coast.

 

[ShannonCT]

Gator, it is not clear to me whether you think it is posible for there to be a purple tile where SCT has a ?. If so, and we get a galley out to verify that there is one, will we be able to tell whether it is a coastal or an ocean tile?

My testing indicates that there are land/city configurations that could cause that lower "?" tile to become purple eventually. But the zero commerce tiles next to it suggest that it would be an ocean tile. So if we got across and captured the city, we would lose the bridge for a while. So we get a galley over there and wait. If there's no new purple visible when our new settler is done, he goes and founds a city on the continent, and York builds another settler as planned.

 

[leif erikson]

Best way to get a galley there would seem to be to chop the forest east of Ironsite.

That forest is outside the cultural boundaries. I tested it in our test game and it yielded 24 hammers, one-third the cost of a Galley.

York could produce a Galley in 7 turns. It would seem the fastest, unless we wish to build a Work Boat?

 

[ShannonCT]

That forest is outside the cultural boundaries. I tested it in our test game and it yielded 24 hammers, one-third the cost of a Galley.

York could produce a Galley in 7 turns. It would seem the fastest, unless we wish to build a Work Boat?

With one chop and with Ironsite changing to a workboat immediately, we get it in 8 turns there by my count. And Ironsite is 2 turns closer to the tiles we want to explore. I'd say York should continue with the settler.

 

[Cactus Pete]

My testing indicates that there are land/city configurations that could cause that lower "?" tile to become purple eventually. But the zero commerce tiles next to it suggest that it would be an ocean tile. So if we got across and captured the city, we would lose the bridge for a while. Please explain temporary bridge loss. Is it not the case that our galleys can never sail on alien ocean tiles?

So we get a galley over there and wait. If there's no new purple visible when our new settler is done, he goes and founds a city on the continent, and York builds another settler as planned.

Agree we need to continue settler in York (and build either a galley or wb in Ironsite).

 

[leif erikson]

Please explain temporary bridge loss. Is it not the case that our galleys can never sail on alien ocean tiles?

Taking the Indian city would collapse the culture until resistance is over. Then we would have to wait for a second cultural expansion to reestablish the bridge. We could not pass our Galleys over an ocean tile with no cultural expansion.

 

[ShannonCT]

Please explain temporary bridge loss. Is it not the case that our galleys can never sail on alien ocean tiles?

That's a negatory good buddy. I seem to remember that being true in an earlier version though.

Spoiler :

 

[Frederiksberg]

Had military arrive at Carthage on time, but they stood there with 4 archers and I wasn't confident to go after them with 6 sword 2 axes (I was probably too conservative, but if we failed the attack our plan was down the toilet).

Oh, maybe you should have done a Haka before playing to bring out your true warrior spirit . 6 swords and 2 axes (many with CR2) against 4 archers will capture the city with a probability in the high nineties (My guess would be around 96% chance of capture). The correct play is clearly to attack immediately.

Everything went to plan (but we will be a few turns delayed on our best case practice game).

We are 6 turns delayed with the capture of Carthage and we are even more delayed with settler building compared to my test game. This means that we should look for new and hopefully equally good solutions for our rush to Astronomy. It probably also means that we are in a hurry to capture Sparta since Athens will get angry citizens very soon (in a little more than 10 turns).

I still think we are in pretty good shape particularly if we can get an extra settler and a few more workers built soon.

Please explain temporary bridge loss. Is it not the case that our galleys can never sail on alien ocean tiles?

In Warlords galleys can use enemy cultural space including ocean tiles. Bridge loss can occur if we capture a city that had expanded borders one or more times.

My testing indicates that there are land/city configurations that could cause that lower "?" tile to become purple eventually. But the zero commerce tiles next to it suggest that it would be an ocean tile. So if we got across and captured the city, we would lose the bridge for a while. So we get a galley over there and wait. If there's no new purple visible when our new settler is done, he goes and founds a city on the continent, and York builds another settler as planned.

I agree with this approach. My feeling is that the chance of establishing a cultural bridge is low so settling on cow island without knowing if it will be a cultural bridge seems to me to be too much of a gamble.

Knowing that India is close is, however, very useful and it means that the need for getting caravels early is further reduced since we already know where we can find the next enemy.

 

[leif erikson]

I agree with this approach. My feeling is that the chance of establishing a cultural bridge is low so settling on cow island without knowing if it will be a cultural bridge seems to me to be too much of a gamble.

Knowing that India is close is, however, very useful and it means that the need for getting caravels early is further reduced since we already know where we can find the next enemy.

While I think we ought to check out the prospects for a culture bridge, I am wondering if it should be weighed against meeting the civ and having war declared? Between now and Astronomy, that will give them a bit of time to build defenses and we can't park a couple of Axes nearby. Will it matter if war is declared so soon?

Knowing India is close means we can sail Galleons right up to their city on the turn war is declared...

 

[ShannonCT]

While I think we ought to check out the prospects for a culture bridge, I am wondering if it should be weighed against meeting the civ and having war declared? Between now and Astronomy, that will give them a bit of time to build defenses and we can't park a couple of Axes nearby. Will it matter if war is declared so soon?

Knowing India is close means we can sail Galleons right up to their city on the turn war is declared...

I see your point that we don't want to give India a lot of advanced warning about our attack. But I wonder if having a tile count of the new land is more important than the element of surprise. If we find out that India's land would give us enough land for domination, I guess that would necessitate a big change in direction.

If a culture bridge opportunity never presents itself, then the element of surprise should make India an easy mark.

 

[DJMGator13]

(Sorry, but I can't get resolution beyone 1224x on my computer, and thus your screen shots don't show anything to me.)

CP, have you been able to see any of the pics I posted or just the last 2 that were 1680x1050? I've resized one for you, see if this helps.

 

[DJMGator13]

There is a small chance that a passage might exist here.




We stayed to the north side of the island and didn't venture to the south, but now that we know that "Purple" is there it might be worth exploring. So a wb from York or Ironsite soon might still be useful.

We're currently #1 in Soldier ranking, so it would be nice to not let the other AI's catch up.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I see your point that we don't want to give India a lot of advanced warning about our attack. But I wonder if having a tile count of the new land is more important than the element of surprise. If we find out that India's land would give us enough land for domination, I guess that would necessitate a big change in direction. Right, not just a tile count, but the knowledge that Astronomy is not needed. QUOTE]

A wb will not survive long enough to get a tile count. We may want to load a galley.

I've been playing BTS, and I couldn't sail on alien oceans. Have to rely on my teammates to keep things straight.

Gator, I can expand your screen shots. I just can't see any purple haze. No big deal. BTW, my decision to not circumnavigate that NW island -- wanted to explore our north and east coasts quickly as possible and didn't think the probability of a civ that far north was very high.

 

[leif erikson]

A wb will not survive long enough to get a tile count. We may want to load a galley.

If we want something that will survive, I suggest we build a Trireme. If we confirm the passage, we may need a Trireme for defense!

I've been playing BTS, and I couldn't sail on alien oceans. Have to rely on my teammates to keep things straight.

Yes, this was a very unpleasant surprise for me in I couldn't figure out why I couldn't go where I wanted. I didn't even work when I had a Right of Passage...

 

[ShannonCT]

Where are we now on land tiles identified vs. tiles needed for Domination?

I count 567 tiles visible now. JT calculated that we need 781 for domination. There are probably a few more tiles southeast of Athens and on the island to the east but culture bridge or not, it's going to be a while before we see 781 tiles.

If we want something that will survive, I suggest we build a Trireme. If we confirm the passage, we may need a Trireme for defense!

We'll need a galley first to be able to establish a culture bridge but a trireme would be best for exploring if we do get across.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Summary of turns

I’ve left out troop movements and worker movements but basically: I moved all military to Carthage while trying to fend off barbs, workers carried out actions outlined in the pre-turn plan. Workboat continued to scout and is still following an island chain.

Delayed taking Carthage and waited until they sent a settler party out – only to meet 4 archers in the city anyway. Regret not going for Carthage ASAP.

125) switch research to masonry, Timbuktu->start on Sword
126) kill barb warrior next to Timbuktu
127) saw two archers in Sparta, the next turn there were three archers there
128) learnt Masonry, switch to Priesthood, kill barb warrior next to Timbuktu, kill barb warrior next to Ivoryville, kill barb warrior near London, lose mine near Timbuktu,
London: Axe->Sword, Athens->start pre-building Walls, miscalculated one workers movement so Ivoryville wall-chop due next turn now
129) Priesthood learnt, switch to Code of Laws, kill barb warrior next to Timbuktu, York: Stonehenge->warrior->warrior (to correspond with growth time till size 5), chops Walls in Ivoryville
130) kill barb warrior next to Athens, Ivoryville builds warrior with hammer overflow
131) kill barb warrior next to Timbuktu
132) York: finished 2nd warrior->worker, Athens: built Walls until 1 turn to go -> Granary
133) London: Sword->Sword
134) kill barb warrior outside Ivoryville
135)
136) Ironsite: Granary->Swordsman
137) kill barb archer next to Timbuktu, kill barb warrior next to Athens
138) kill barb warrior next to Athens, lose Rice farm by Timbuktu to barb archer, London: Sword->Sword
139) learnt Code of Laws, switch to SailingConvert to Confucism (angry face in Timbuktu, should I have made the switch?)
Anarchy 1 turn
140) switch from Slavery to Caste System, kill barb archer next to York, kill barb archer next to TimbuktuAnarchy 1 turn
141)
142) kill barb warrior next to Timbuktu, York: worker->settler
143) learnt Sailing, next tech still to be chosen, Carthage falls with the loss of one sword

Comments:
Stressful defending Timbuktu with only warrior defence, but we got through – at the cost of some tile improvements.

Timbuktu and Ivoryville currently under barb archer threat. Ivoryville can move swordsman who is SW of the city in for help, but may compromise fog busting for Athens workers (small risk of barb spawning on the roaded plains square). Timbuktu probably has a favourable chance of fending off current barbs but could cash upgrade a warrior to an axe to finish the barb threat once and for all.

One of the two warriors in the middle of the continent to the north was to be moved to a hill north of Timbuktu to fogbust.

Worker force at Athens can upgrade copper and sheep after chop and also move to Ivoryville to upgrade iron/cows/ivory.

Confucian missionary needs escort from Timbuktu to desired city.

Athens walls can be chopped next turn all forests have 1 turn to go (including the roaded forest with no worker on it) but have to wait 2 turns for border expansion. Could possibly run one artist and one scientist for a single turn to pop borders next turn (1 turn faster)– will contaminate GS pool but will end up being less than 2% contamination?

Some Athens forest tiles have prebuilt roads on them (to use worker turns while synchronizing the chop) you can see which ones by selecting a worker and holding the mouse over the “build road” icon. Any number less than 4 means there are worker turns invested in the prebuild.