SGOTM 06 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

It looks to me that going into revolt (we have the Pyramids, so probably Police State) towards the end might well allow us either to research HBR and get a few extra units in play or just to upgrade more archers. That could make the difference. My understanding is not the same as SCT's. I believe that it was ruled an exploit when a technique was used to remain in revolt for a large percentage of turns. I think we might even want to get a ruling on this from the moderators.

I agree with your understanding of the rule.

The ruling is in this post.

This is what it says:
"Perpetual Anarchy: DISALLOWED: It is possible to operate in a near-perpetual state of anarchy to prevent losing units due to going broke with high maintenance costs. By revolting to anarchy, and ensuring that the anachy is a minimum of four turns, no units will be disbanded due to lack of maintenance funds during the anarchy period. On exiting anarchy, there is a one-turn grace period in which no units will be disbanded - long enough to produce more units from forest chops (that get stored-up in the production box during anarchy) and then revolt again. This is considered exploitive.

Playing Guideline: You are allowed to revolt however frequently you like, provided you can pay for your units! If you cannot afford your unit upkeep, you may not revolt until at least four turns* after then end of the last anarchy period.

*This period may be reviewed."

Even if we cannot afford our units, there are still periods where we may revolt. It seems to me it is using Anarchy in a continuous nature to avoid losing your units, that is banned. One, well timed, anarchy to change governments should not be considered an exploit.

EDIT - If we think this interpretation is incorrect, please let me know and I will contact AlanH or Gyathaar via PM to request a ruling.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

I have the same interpretation as leif and CP.

This was considered an exploit in previous patches where there was a set number of turns (or a no-anarchy-turn-timer) between successive revolts, but these turns were counted from the first turn of anarchy and not from when the revolt was over. In a marathon game, if you could revolt for enough turns (say 5-6 turns), the no-anarchy-turn-timer would have expired by the time you came out of anarchy and you could go back into anarchy on the exact turn that you came out of revolt, thus entering perpetual anarchy. Since then, a patch has changed the no-anarchy-turn-timer to begin from the turn AFTER you come out of anarchy.

My interpretation is that this exploit is no longer possible and we can change civics as often as we want. (Not that this should be our plan). I think that we are free to be able to use this tactic if we wish, but I have the general impression that it is considered a cheap trick. I don't know why?

You still have to pay unit maintenance for a period of time when you come out of revolt, and you are sacrificing you entire empire's production and growth during those anarchy turns. The tactic has very limited value and is only appropriate at the very end of conquest and domination games that have been played right down to the line.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Since my team is obviously monitoring the thread, here is the turn log for 205 and 206 . . .

575AD (turn 205):

Made build changes and whipped units in accordance with counsel received.

Moved Ecbatana WE onto rice and found a Viking HA to be perched on the hill SE of Birka (will whip WE in Ecbatana rather than Xbow).

Attacked cat outside Pasargadae with sword – lost, but reduced cat to .5 (should be able to keep city).

IBT:

Viking chariot attacked Bagdad Xbow in city and lost, leaving it with a promotion (to cover) and one turn to heal (march to Susa delayed one turn, but glad to get promo and chariot eliminated).

Viking HA at Birka moved 2 tiles to plains NW of Ecbatana, and chariot came out of Birka and onto wheat.

At Pasargadae, Arab archer disappeared (frustrated that I did not see direction it went), and wounded cat remained in place (to heal or to invite attack?)

Damascus chariots did not advance on Mecca.

590:

rrau’s raft reveals only axe and spear in Birka

Successfully attack Viking HA and chariot near Ecbatana

York galleon, in route to Haithabu, reveals 7 defenders in Nidaros – 2 single-promoted archers, 2 HA’s, 1 cat, 1 spearman, and 1 sword

Fred’s Ferry sails toward Persepolis and is shocked to find that there is no bay (which would have given easy access to the city), but a large lake to the west. This will slow the capture of Persepolis several turns.

MP’sFL sinks Arab trireme SE of Damascus.

1014 gold chopped.

Troops are moved as planned, and cities whipped as scheduled.

 

[leif erikson]

Fred’s Ferry sails toward Persepolis and is shocked to find that there is no bay (which would have given easy access to the city), but a large lake to the west. This will slow the capture of Persepolis several turns.

Can't afford too many of these surprises...

1014 gold chopped.

Good news.

Keep up the good work...

 

[rrau]

Fred’s Ferry sails toward Persepolis and is shocked to find that there is no bay (which would have given easy access to the city), but a large lake to the west. This will slow the capture of Persepolis several turns.

Bummer

 

[Cactus Pete]

Update:

IBT: PARS cat, now at 1.3, foolishly (because that tile is not in range of spear) moves 1 tile east to approach worker that I’ve put on forest.

605AD (turn 207):

WE dispenses with cat, with no damage to unit, but later find that Cyrus has built another un-promoted cat in PERS.

York galleon and rrau’s raft drop units at Haithabu, which is defended by a lone promoted archer, but has roads to both Birka and Nidaros. Moreover, the lake east of PERS may extend north to just east of Haithabu, so the missing Arab city probably (still too much fog to be certain) cannot be reached from HAIT, only from PERS (which is not good and makes the timely capture of PERS imperative).

Can’t get the right units set up for promotion and still able to board the returning York galleon next turn, so am going to send the GG to HAIT and probably promote wounded units, perhaps relevant to the siege of Nidaros.

MP’sFL reaches Medina with three units (cat, WE, and sword) aboard and finds the city at 20% culture and defended by 2 twice-promoted archers. Three units would be favored to take it after bombardment and cat attack.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Sounds like we may have captured a couple more cities when CP's next update comes in.

Possible draw-out maneouvre:
If units in pasagardae (sp?) are healed you might leave the city undefended for one turn which may draw out the persepolis cat. Once you have the cat next to the city you may be able to use the worker to draw the cat out of back-up range of the spear once again and then kill him with our WE. Only try this if you are 100% sure that pasargard will be safe.

No galleon access to Persepolis... how does this affect our master plan? Are any adjustements needed right now to allow coordination of all attack fronts to finish at the same time (and before our target date) ?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Sounds like we may have captured a couple more cities when CP's next update comes in. Hope so. Won't be able to play anymore for about three hours and intend to post a save (wherever I am) before retiring.

Possible draw-out maneouvre:
If units in pasagardae (sp?) are healed you might leave the city undefended for one turn which may draw out the persepolis cat. Once you have the cat next to the city you may be able to use the worker to draw the cat out of back-up range of the spear once again and then kill him with our WE. Only try this if you are 100% sure that pasargard will be safe. That's partly why I was frustrated with not knowing where the Arab archer went, but I think I can pull this off safely once the axe completes healing next turn.

No galleon access to Persepolis... how does this affect our master plan? Are any adjustements needed right now to allow coordination of all attack fronts to finish at the same time (and before our target date) ?

I may err on the side of overkill in getting units to PERS, but, otherwise, there are presently too many unknowns to completely coordinate all fronts. By the time I post a save tonight, that may be worth considering.

 

[DJMGator13]

Don't be too cautious.

BTW, Team OSS has posted a 485AD save and it shows a slight slow down on their power graph. I'd say it puts us and them dead even on power points at 485AD, but we have been able to keep up the heavy whipping. Should be a fun finish.

 

[Cactus Pete]

CACTUS PETE
SGOTM6 REPORT TO 635AD



IBT: No movement except cat disappears from PERS.

620AD (turn 208):

Take Haithabu with loss of one cat.

Barb axe found up in jungle 2 tiles NW of PARS.

Persian axe and cat found on copper 2 tiles SW of PERS.

Find an un-promoted archer, spear, and 4 workers in Tarsus.

Uppsala defended by 2 un-promoted archers, 1 spear, 1 sword, and 1 settler.

IBT:

Cat built in Nidaros, and the two Uppsala archers and settler move out of city.

Persian cat on copper near PERS disappears, but probably is on hill NW of Gordium.

Barb archer approaches Mecca (a chance to gain a promotion).

Barb axe near PARS disappears in fog.

635:

Mecca sword kills barb, now 5.3 with CR3 promotion available.

Kufah found to now have 50% culture, but only 2 archers defending.

Cannot find missing Arab city. Are we sure it exists?

Move units just NW of Uppsala to cut off archers from city.

Begin an advance on Tartar because gold from razing will be useful.


The save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/539/SGOTM06_in_progress.CivWarlordsSave

This is a good stopping point, as there are questions to be answered and decisions to be made. I will not play again until the team has reached agreement on a coordinated plan for victory.

I’ve left an archer near London (who could be upgraded) unmoved this turn because I'm not sure if an upgrade is a good investment. A Xbow would speed fall of Nidaros, but that is not critical to our finish date if there really is a missing Arab city.

2 units in Mecca, and the Gator Buggy are also unmoved, because I’m not sure whether the GB needs to start searching the islands to the north or the land in the north of the AI continent for another Arab city or whether that's a red herring and those units should be used against cities we know exist.

Whipping in Mecca and Pasargadae needs to be planned, though options are limited because the problems with Persepolis have delayed considerably attaining an outlet to the ocean and access to resources..

I do not anticipate problems taking the Viking cities, but the remaining Arab cities and Susa could cause difficulties. (On the other hand, they could all be taken in 9 turns with good fortune.)

HBR remains an option with pros and cons, centering on how helpful it would be in whipping units on the AI continent to finish off the Arab cities and Susa. There is also a chariot near Persepolis that it would be useful to have upgraded.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

I won't be able to chip in with comments from looking at the save until at least Saturday, sorry.

 

[ShannonCT]

Nice work CP. Looks like you have us in good position to win in 8-10 turns.

2 units in Mecca, and the Gator Buggy are also unmoved, because I’m not sure whether the GB needs to start searching the islands to the north or the land in the north of the AI continent for another Arab city or whether that's a red herring and those units should be used against cities we know exist.

Just did a tile count. Damascus, Kufah, and Medina make 50 tiles, exactly what the demographics screen shows Arabia as having (51*3 - 71 - 32 = 50). There is no mystery Arab city. And there are no other unknown Viking or Persian cities either. The only thing we don't know is what units are in Susa.

Whipping in Mecca and Pasargadae needs to be planned, though options are limited because the problems with Persepolis have delayed considerably attaining an outlet to the ocean and access to resources.

You'll need to start by whipping an archer and cat in Parsargadae to avoid starvation. Whip second the one that you want to come out first.

HBR remains an option with pros and cons, centering on how helpful it would be in whipping units on the AI continent to finish off the Arab cities and Susa. There is also a chariot near Persepolis that it would be useful to have upgraded.

Where can we actually build HAs on the AI continent? Parsargadae and Mecca won't be connected to our network for a while will they? And I didn't think chariots could be upgraded to HAs now that they are better against axemen than HAs.

 

[rrau]

If there's truly a city missing, we need to send GB north to look for it, but first:

In the culture worldview, some Persian cities have what appears to be conflicting Arabian Culture? Could this account for the missing tiles? Or is there an Arabian city, 1 culture tile only deep in Persian lands?

 

[rrau]

Persepolis: go to hill N of city to avoid river crossing penalty. All surviving units need to head N for other big persian city as the only road there appears to be from Persiopolis.


FF and surviving units from Tarsus to Gordinium.

Either of the generic galleons could chain to Thunder rider then to Shannon's for delivery S. of Persiopolis or continue around to Damascus.

Damascus and Medina needs troops committed to them.

 

[leif erikson]

Nice work CP.

You have positioned us well.

Where can we actually build HAs on the AI continent? Parsargadae and Mecca won't be connected to our network for a while will they? And I didn't think chariots could be upgraded to HAs now that they are better against axemen than HAs.

It looks to me like once Persepolis and Birka are gone the connection will be Ecbatana through to Pasargadae.

The question is whether we can afford to research HBR at this point? Going to 100% research says 4 turns at -253 gpt. And we have 734 Gold in the treasury, although that should grow considerably with taking Persepolis, Birka, Tarsus, etc...

Persepolis: go to hill N of city to avoid river crossing penalty. All surviving units need to head N for other big persian city as the only road there appears to be from Persiopolis.

The Cats can still bombard from across the river. That is unaffected?

Damascus and Medina needs troops committed to them.

Lots of to do up north.

Good news SCT on the confirmation that we know of all cities.

A bit concerned about troops levels in the north but I don't see what we can do about it except whip and chop as quickly as we can.

Looking at our home cities, I am amazed they are not more whip unhappy.

 

[rrau]

No penalty to bombard across the river, but there is one to attack across it.

 

[ShannonCT]

Looking at the save again, I think we are in really good shape.

Persepolis can be taken on turn 212. On turn 210, the three units west of Pers can stay where they are to let the cat bombard. Units SW of Pers can also stay where they are. On turn 211, the three units west of Pers can move NE to cross the river. All other units can assemble SW of Pers. On turn 212, CR2 cat attacks from the north, all other cats attack from the SW, and then swords and WEs mop up. Survivors of the battle can help with Gordium.

I think the WE in Parsargadae should move toward Susa next turn. He'll get there on the same turn as the Xbow and cat from Baghdad. We might find a lightly defended city that a cat, Xbow, and WE could take down. Otherwise, we'll be able to follow up with 2-3 cats whipped in Parsargadae. Susa could be captured as early as turn 214. Parsargadae will be defended by the axe, and with whipped units coming every turn, Parsargadae is safe.

Birka can be taken on turn 211. The Xbow can open the attack and kill/wound the axe. Follow with a sword and Birka is going to have no chance. Birka/Haithabu units can then move toward Nidaros.

Upsalla can also be taken on turn 211 without cat bombardment at the likely expense of a couple WEs. But maybe there's no rush.

Medina can likely be taken on turn 210 if we land the WE this turn. Or we can wait one more turn so the cat can bombard on turn 210 and suicide on turn 211, saving our sword and WE for Damascus.

Damascus can be taken without cats. Mecca can whip cats on turn 210 and 211, and those cats built on turns 211 and 212 can head to Kufah. With three suicide cats, a CR3 sword, and an Xbow, Kufah should fall. Damascus can be dealt with by our survivor(s) from Medina and the 2 swords and WE from Mecca.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"In the culture worldview, some Persian cities have what appears to be conflicting Arabian Culture?" Educate me, rrau. What is a 'cultural world view', and how do you see it?

Looking at the save again, I think we are in really good shape. I'd like to know exactly how good a shape relative to other teams. Expect exact is too much to ask, but can we come up with the probability of coming in first if we finish in 7, 8, 9, 10, etc. turns? That would be especially helpful to JT, if he has to make a call between being agressive or conservative in taking the last city(s).

Persepolis can be taken on turn 212. On turn 210, the three units west of Pers can stay where they are to let the cat bombard. Planned to do that. Units SW of Pers can also stay where they are. On turn 211, the three units west of Pers can move NE to cross the river. All other units can assemble SW of Pers. On turn 212, CR2 cat attacks from the north, all other cats attack from the SW, and then swords and WEs mop up. Need to study this. Not exactly what I had in mind.Survivors of the battle can help with Gordium.

I think the WE in Parsargadae should move toward Susa next turn. He'll get there on the same turn as the Xbow and cat from Baghdad. We might find a lightly defended city that a cat, Xbow, and WE could take down. Otherwise, we'll be able to follow up with 2-3 cats whipped in Parsargadae. Susa could be captured as early as turn 214. Parsargadae will be defended by the axe, and with whipped units coming every turn, Parsargadae is safe. Agree with all that.

Birka can be taken on turn 211. The Xbow can open the attack and kill/wound the axe. Follow with a sword and Birka is going to have no chance. Birka/Haithabu units can then move toward Nidaros. Also might be possible to get some to Gordium, if it is well defended.

Upsalla can also be taken on turn 211 without cat bombardment at the likely expense of a couple WEs. But maybe there's no rush. There probably is no rush, but, should no archer be built in Uppsala IBT (and I suspect it might be, or the archers and settler wouldn't have departed the city), what about attacking next turn with the three landed units plus amphibious assault? We'd take very heavy losses, but there is an abundance of units. Further, the Vikings might weaken themselvess by sending units to re-capture Uppsala and we could sail into the city to eliminate the counterattackers.

Medina can likely be taken on turn 210 if we land the WE this turn. Or we can wait one more turn so the cat can bombard on turn 210 and suicide on turn 211, saving our sword and WE for Damascus. I'm inclined to wait a turn here.

Damascus can be taken without cats. Mecca can whip cats on turn 210 and 211, and those cats built on turns 211 and 212 can head to Kufah. With three suicide cats, a CR3 sword, and an Xbow, Kufah should fall. Damascus can be dealt with by our survivor(s) from Medina and the 2 swords and WE from Mecca.

I will send the worker on the hill NE of Medina to find out what is in Susa next turn. If it is heavily defended, I may send the crossbow near Kufah to Susa (he's positioned so he can get there as soon as the axe). In that case, how do you like our odds if I send one of the Mecca swords to Kufah and one of the whipped cats to Damascus?

Becoming convinced that HBR is not worth it.

Would like some ideas about what to do with the GG now in Haithabu.

 

[leif erikson]

I agree. Things are looking up.

Now if we can survive the RNG, we'll be all set...

 

[ShannonCT]

The question is whether we can afford to research HBR at this point? Going to 100% research says 4 turns at -253 gpt. And we have 734 Gold in the treasury, although that should grow considerably with taking Persepolis, Birka, Tarsus, etc...

I don't think we can afford HBR and I don't think it will do any good either. Horse archers only get from Parsargadae or Mecca to their intended targets one turn earlier than cats. And cats are much more useful for taking cities.

Our financial situation is not quite as bad as it looks in the save. CP has MMed Athens, Ironsite, and York for production and growth at the expense of working gold mines. We can switch back to gold mines in those three cities (and MM other cities for commerce) in a few turns when we've produced all the units we can use. We should be able to MM for another 30-35 GPT.