SGOTM 07 - Murky Waters

[Erkon]

KK's putting 3 defenders in each city, judging from his cities: 2 lbs or a lb/pike pair plus a 3rd unit. All you have to offer is the 3rd unit. Fine. Gift one unit to Kyoto. In all likelihood, any other units you gift will move/pillage for 8 turns before getting to Delhi. Too late. Take a look at the map.

Erkon, just focus on red-lining cities and trust KK to follow your lead. Think of it this way:
1. Strategy layer: Which cities are you going to red-line and how soon can you do it?
2. Tactical layer: How can you make sure KK gets one attacker to the red-lined cities on time?

So we need to focus on red-lining cities and you and Gnejs want 2 or 3 fronts. Let's analyze that. Bombay is red-lined in 1 turn with at most 2 grens and a cannon. You currently have 2 grens defending Murky and 2 more grens and 3 cannons you could send to Delhi as a red-line task force. Now you need red-liners for Liz and JC, plus you need Globe asap. You need about 5-10 units for the Liz force, so if you build that in Murky, you won't have anything at Rome for about 20 turns. BUT, if you build Globe asap and send the Kyoto stack to Rome, then you can collect some cash for upgrades and by the end of your turnset you have Asoka totally red-lined, if not gone, and 2 deadly forces for Liz and JC, in position. jesusin mops up and klarius grumbles that we didn't leave anything for him but to hit <enter> and pillage Saladin's salad garden.

I agree on the first part, but don't put me in bed with Gnejs! I dont plan to DoW JC this turn set...

Bombay and Delhi will be red-lined before KK shows up without the cannons outside in Murkylands. I will probably send the cannon close to Bombay as backup to Bombay.

I've got enough units to start red-lining (whatever that means) Cuzco. I don't need any stinkeen grens to defend Murky...

Top priority is to red-line Bombay and Delhi before KK shows up. Second priority is to kill off units from Cuzco (either inside city or outside city). Make no mistake, I aint playing a girlie turn set and let jesusin have all the glory!

 

[klarius]

Athens proved that KK can capture cities on his own. He can probably do the same with London if we just bombard it down to 0 with our frigates.
And we also want our enemies to spend their loose units early.

That was with his already filled large assault sea group. He doesn't have that currently. The galleons in Athens are for sure not full. And even if they were, Athens was defended by a handful of lbs and already under attack by Liz. London has more units including 2 CG1 muskets. We need cannons (to attack not necessarily for bombard) at London or this will be a big suicide site for KK (note his preference to build muskets , the moron). The same is true at Delhi and I fear we don't have enough units for both (don't forget that we want York and Cuzco also).

 

[LowtherCastle]

I've got enough units to start red-lining (whatever that means) Cuzco. I don't need any stinkeen grens to defend Murky...

Top priority is to red-line Bombay and Delhi before KK shows up. Second priority is to kill off units from Cuzco (either inside city or outside city). Make no mistake, I aint playing a girlie turn set and let jesusin have all the glory!

Now you're talking.

You should be able to see exactly where any attackers from Cuzco go. Beware! I got Fred to empty his city of attackers, but then I swooped and next turn he had them right back in there. My gut feeling is that if you and KK have no units within 2 tiles, Liz'll send them out, so you can easily red-line, but you'll also need to figure out how to block the attackers from returning, because the chances are KK won't be as quick as you.

Btw, glory is in the eye of the beholder. The future wise readers of this thread will know exactly how good your turnset was and exactly what you left for jesusin...

 

[klarius]

Top priority is to red-line Bombay and Delhi before KK shows up. Second priority is to kill off units from Cuzco (either inside city or outside city). Make no mistake, I aint playing a girlie turn set and let jesusin have all the glory!

Still, don't declare on Liz before you have sufficient troops next to Cuzco and (more important, IMO) York. I don't care about this girlie frigate stuff. Real troops next to cities is what it takes.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I don't care about this girlie frigate stuff.

I also noticed that when Gnejs and Erkon talk about Liz they get frigid.

 

[klarius]

My interpretation of the events to far is that KK is very slow to react i.e. we have to initiate actions well in advance. If we DoW Liz next turn, KK will capture Cuzco in eight (or something). We still have JC and Washington left to kill, so I'm very afraid of delaying the war on Liz (which is on the critical line).

KK is neither slow nor fast, he doesn't react at all.
But single units react and may suicide on York or Cuzco, if they are free to do so. If you have redlined the city it will be taken instead. Don't forget that both cities are accessible from roaded tiles in Washington's culture.

Spare Nottingham? I can do after red-lining to prevent her from pillaging our iron. I don't want to build the Galleon this turn set though, since the cannons are needed against York/Cuzco. - still open to discussion

I see no reason to waste turns to red-line Nottingham unless it shall be taken. It's anyway improbable that she sends a unit out, but if, just kill it. Even if you miss a unit and she pillages the iron, who cares? We can get another from KK if we need one.
Edit:
Why not build a galleon instead of the mace you have in your plan. One turn at 42h instead of 38h will make that work as well as the mace.

EDIT: LC, the units we gift may become DEFENDERS, but that will stop KK from building more DEFENDERS and build ATTACKERS instead? Kan klarius konfirm?

First of all no unit becomes defender. They may sit in cities for various reasons, but still are what they're built for. But it may really be so that KK has to few city defense currently and has to build a few more first. For sure he doesn't have enough attack (I mean real plain UNITAI_ATTACK) units currently, so that should be his next goal. He has a bunch of attack city, collateral, counter and city counter. The latter three contribute nothing to an offensive war on their own.

 

[klarius]

Another small thing:
Please get one of our workers home, before you DoW Liz. There are various reasons why we might need another workshop, instead of the steenkin' village. If we get Nottingham to KK we need it.
Also we might still lose our s-se workshop to Washington's culture. We are just holding it because we run such a high culture rate. Washington and New York pump a lot of culture into the tile.

 

[Gnejs]

That's an interesting idea with Grog and his pal. But how many turns would it take to ship them to Athens and back again as two mongolian grenadiers?
I get the feeling that this will take some 15 turns which to me is 13 turns too late.

 

[klarius]

That's an interesting idea with Grog and his pal. But how many turns would it take to ship them to Athens and back again as two mongolian grenadiers?
I get the feeling that this will take some 15 turns which to me is 13 turns too late.

Well, I thought more about Mongolian London. I still see no gain in wasting our unit turns on Nottingham before the other cities are captured. London-Murky takes 2 turns to return. So gift and let them upgrade on the turn London is captured (Tn) unload in Murky Tn+2, Nottingham captured by Tn+4.

 

[LowtherCastle]

klarius has mentioned the loss of sheep if we raze Nottingham. (Edit: Beside the point anyway.) Are there any good reasons to raze cities? If we red-line every city on our continent and have a red-lining sentry stationed at each until KK captures it, is there a problem?

No razing cities until we're sure we don't need the population.

 

[Erkon]

Could the Peanut Gallery please condense the various comments into specific proposals to my PPP? I will also try to define the criteria for DoWing Liz (i.e. the number of units necessary in the York-Cuzco theatre, not the capture of Bombay - sorry FiveAces!)

The only reason for me to delay Liza-DoW more than two turns is evidence that she's not researching Chemistry. How do we know? How can I tell?

 

[klarius]

klarius has mentioned the loss of sheep if we raze Nottingham. Are there any good reasons to raze cities? If we red-line every city on our continent and have a red-lining sentry stationed at each until KK captures it, is there a problem?

No razing cities until we're sure we don't need the population.

We lose the sheep, if KK captures it and expands borders, not when we raze. But still we can do w/o if we have enough workshops or enough health (Athens corn gets accessible to KK, when York is done).
More of a problem is, BTW, if we let KK take New York and it gets out of resistance. That will cost us furs and a workshop tile, so we should look that this happens only when we don't need big production anymore.

Nottingham is a city that can grow like cancer with netted clams, netted fish and sheep after expansion (probably the crabs will get pillaged by KK, but we could still build a wb in the end if that's what needed).

The only reason for me to delay Liza-DoW more than two turns is evidence that she's not researching Chemistry. How do we know? How can I tell?

My latest error corrected spread sheet shows that she is offering exactly the full price for chemistry with DR+10. So she has no beakers in it.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Could the Peanut Gallery please condense the various comments into specific proposals to my PPP?

The only reason for me to delay Liza-DoW more than two turns is evidence that she's not researching Chemistry. How do we know? How can I tell?

UNIT MOVES
Kyoto Region
* Gift 1 cat or choko to Kyoto
* Move the rest to Hamburg, upgrade as needed. This is your Cuzco stack, later our Rome stack.

Delhi and York Region
* Send northern units to red-line these two cities

DIPLOMACY
* Don't give Sal SciMeth. Who needs Nationalism? Curiousity killed the cat.
* Get copper and marble from KK
* Copper to Louis for 3gpt
* Marble to Hatty for 2gpt
* klarius said we could keep KK at about 200 gold reserves.

In 6 turns:
If Cyrus still has extra clams, gift our to KK, and re-negotiate our deals with CYrus to get clams.

Suggestions to attack...
* Your schedule is okay, but pay attention to KK's units so you can be flexible. If units are going across Asoka without pillaging, then you can already start suggesting Delhi.

Liz and Chemistry
* Pay attention to how many players have Divine Rule and CHemistry and see if her offer changes.

 

[Erkon]

...Nottingham is a city that can grow like cancer with netted clams, netted fish and sheep after expansion (probably the crabs will get pillaged by KK, but we could still build a wb in the end if that's what needed).


My latest error corrected spread sheet shows that she is offering exactly the full price for chemistry with DR+10. So she has no beakers in it.

Do you then propose that I ignore Nottingham i.e. don't station any units next to it and not red-line it?

I could not extract that info from your chart since I don't understand it (mind you, I'm still in vacation mode). She won't put beakers into DR, will she? So we can use the DR+10 as indicator that she is not researching Chemistry? This is in direct conflict with LC's predictions, so I want to be very sure about this. If she is not researching Chemistry, I will wait a few more turns until I have a nice, shiny stack in Washington (or KK captures Bombay, whatever comes first, alright FiceAces?). Shiny stack = including the four cannons from Murky i.e. in five turns.

Hmm, LC has posted, so I will read that before submit... hmm... yep, makes sense. I'll incorporate into PPP.

I plan to play tomorrow night (in about 25 hours). Sorry for the delay, but I'm not fit to play right now

 

[LowtherCastle]

This is in direct conflict with LC's predictions, so I want to be very sure about this.

That was before klarius noticed that one more AI had researched Chemistry, making the deal worth 10g less. In other words, the deal had stayed the same in terms of whatLiz was researching. In other words, Liz is not researching Chemistry. SO my revised prediction is that she won't complete it during your turnset.

Read the thread in seuqence...

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'm not fit to play right now

In that case, be very careful who you get into bed with tonight...

 

[klarius]

Do you then propose that I ignore Nottingham i.e. don't station any units next to it and not red-line it?

Yes. If Liz comes out with a unit you can still kill it with our latest build or the build before, which will be both in range. Red-line only when we want to take it.
Razing will just tie up our units and delay the more important York and London. And once it's the last English cities there is no use to raze it anymore. Even if Liz should get chemistry then, it will be no problem to have KK capture it for some population.

 

[Gnejs]

That was before klarius noticed that one more AI had researched Chemistry, making the deal worth 10g less. In other words, the deal had stayed the same in terms of whatLiz was researching. In other words, Liz is not researching Chemistry. SO my revised prediction is that she won't complete it during your turnset.

Read the thread in seuqence...

Well, the fact that Hattie has it also means that Liz may be able to trade for Chemistry soon. Perhaps even now? What kind of AI-AI deals involving chemistry are possible?

 

[Erkon]

That was before klarius noticed that one more AI had researched Chemistry, making the deal worth 10g less. In other words, the deal had stayed the same in terms of whatLiz was researching. In other words, Liz is not researching Chemistry. SO my revised prediction is that she won't complete it during your turnset.

Read the thread in seuqence...

Oh my god. Cheeky bastard! You know, I just wanted you to admit in public that you were wrong Anyway, I just wanted to be sure about your opinion.

Gnejs, I will DoW Liz once I have a decent stack to kill off her units. I don't want to loose any injured units in a counterattack, ok?

 

[klarius]

Well, the fact that Hattie has it also means that Liz may be able to trade for Chemistry soon. Perhaps even now? What kind of AI-AI deals involving chemistry are possible?

Well, Hatty could trade it to Cyrus for whatever (as we don't trade for techs while they are cheap, we don't know what the people have). But that will still not mean that any of the two would trade it to Liz as they are not friendly and have 30 iTechTradeKnownPercent (KK and us is only 1 team, so it's only 2 of 10 counting against the threshold). Still it could be helpful to get PP and liberalism to Hatty, so Liz cannot trade in that, in case somebody else gets chemistry also.