SGOTM 07 - The Real Ms. Beyond

[Compromise]

Yikes! Okay I'm up. I hope I can get to this later tonight.

I need to make sure I'm caught up on the discussion before deciding between WB and worker. If anyone else has a preference, please post.

My plan is to play until the turn before Writing so we can discuss OB strategy. In my experience, the AI often requests OB on its turn, thus before you get the notice that you've discovered Writing.

 

[sooooo]

What's the reason for another work boat again? Now we're at size 4, and not planning on slaving any citizens, I can't imagine a tile layout when we would want to work both crabs. Instead working 1 crab, both resource hills and the deer is what we want for max production. I suppose we could trade the crab for a happy resource but we have no open borders yet or guarantees that an AI has hooked up 2 happy resources. What can wait should wait. I would stick to building archers and one worker, not growing until we are close to having 5 happy.

 

[Kodii]

Are we able to fit 2 archers and a worker in 8 turns? I think we'll be okay with the 3 archers and the worker then starting a library once Writing is in... but we'll be pausing then anyways.

PS: And how did the Unusual Suspects get a vertical line in their score graph? o_o... I thought you couldn't save on the same turn.... or was that just the first turn?

 

[Compromise]

I need to make sure I'm caught up with the intent here before playing tomorrow morning. Right now, my plan and thoughts are:

1) Continue researching toward Writing, stopping the turn before discovery to discuss OB plans; so about 8 or 9 turns.
2) Our 4th tile is the plains river tile (1F1H1C). I can't help but notice that a 3T rotation of sheep (2F1H), coast (1F3C), plains hill forest (3H) will give 3F4H3C over 3T compared to 3F3H3C when just working the plains river tile. It's amazing how anal you can get with OCC.
3) I'm still trying to figure out what we want for exact build order (2 more archers--totaling 4, then worker, then library?) and growth plans (grow to size 5 only with production of 4th archer since workers don't eat while being built--or is that just settlers?)

Question: Is the ideal plan...
(a) finish worker and writing on the same turn after having generated 2 archers?, or
(b) finish 2 more archers and grow to size 5 as the 4th archer finishes, then go worker; subject to getting Writing asap?

Edit: Addressing Kodii's question, I think that you *can* have multiple saves for the same date except for the 4000BC save. They must've decided to...trade techs? Otherwise, how could they go up in a playturn?

Edit2: It looks like growing to size 5 and building 2 archers will require 10F45H from our 4tiles/turn. (That's 10F above what's needed to feed the 4 citizens.) Now, if I could just figure out the commerce calculation....

 

[Swiss Pauli]

@Compromise: you can play until the discovery of Writing because OBs is an even trade, not a demand, so the AI won't be offended if you don't take it. (And an AI or two should soon discover Writing anyway.) It would be good is you can get a screenie of the inter-AI OBs from the diplo screen: then we can see whether the 'missing' AIs will reach us without us having to invest hammers in scouting. Each AI is worth ca. 120-350 beakers in Alpha trade, so we really want to meet as many as we can.

If you go to 3 archers at size 4, you'll need to delete the warrior not to incur upkeep costs. 4 archers would require us to be at size 5 to avoid upkeep. If we choose to stay at size 4, I think we should complete most of the 4th archer then slip a library ahead of him in the queue (and complete later using the overflow towards the library).

 

[sooooo]

TBH I'm still not convinced of the argument to grow to size 5 and become unhappy. By not growing we can be getting 9 hammers (stone 3, marble 3, deer 2, city tile 1). Trying to grow will cost us 2 or 3 hammers per turn depending on which tile we work instead of a resource tile. The benefit of increased increased unit maintenence allowence at size 5 can be offset by the increased city maintenence.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

No, because of rounding in Vanilla city maint will stay at zero at size 5. I don't think there's much in it either way, but we just need to bear in mind the troop cost situation (reducing 10% research isn't a huge hit either).

 

[sooooo]

I don't think it's important to stay below the free unit allowance. Going over it will cost us a turn every so often at 90% science but is easily worth it if a bunch of rampaging indians arrive at our doorstep. Asoka is one of the most aggressive AIs if he outpowers you. His reputation as being peaceful is wrong - he just is a bit of a wimp and won't attack people unless he outpowers them. But when he does, he's extremely eager to declare war.

 

[Jabah]

TBH I'm still not convinced of the argument to grow to size 5 and become unhappy. By not growing we can be getting 9 hammers (stone 3, marble 3, deer 2, city tile 1). Trying to grow will cost us 2 or 3 hammers per turn depending on which tile we work instead of a resource tile. The benefit of increased increased unit maintenence allowence at size 5 can be offset by the increased city maintenence.

I am with sooooo on that one, ideally it might be good to ba at size 5, but practical it is costing us to much right now.

And btw, our capital tiles is worth 2 hpt, so we can do 10hpt at no food deficit at size 4 right now (for the food deficit, swap crab for an hill for 2t, working deer, 3x hills).

I will build 2 archers (because on some tests, it shows that it is just enough to avoid an early 'too much on our hands from an itchy AI)', I would keep the warrior, as he will be in charge of exploring (btw he can start going a few tiles SW before Open Border) and I would build a worker immediatly after the 2archers.

From what I see, I think we can fit 2 archers (5t) and a worker (5t) with some food deficit to be finished just the turn after writing.

We then could build the library as fast as possible, and with a worker camping the deer, we would be able to grow to 5 (if we want to) after library even with 2 scientists.

Jabah

PS - I would also accept that we have to pay 1gpt for unit maintenance, since the exploring warrior will be worth it imho for a little while.

 

[Jabah]

The 'vertical' lines for unusual suspects (score and power) are without any doubt due to trading seveal tech in the same turn between saves.

Since they trade 10power worth of tech, could be "Iron Working" or a mix of several smaller ones.

 

[Kodii]

1) Continue researching toward Writing, stopping the turn before discovery to discuss OB plans; so about 8 or 9 turns.

I think its safe to go all the way until discovery

2) Our 4th tile is the plains river tile (1F1H1C). I can't help but notice that a 3T rotation of sheep (2F1H), coast (1F3C), plains hill forest (3H) will give 3F4H3C over 3T compared to 3F3H3C when just working the plains river tile. It's amazing how anal you can get with OCC.

Anal = Good

3) I'm still trying to figure out what we want for exact build order (2 more archers--totaling 4, then worker, then library?) and growth plans (grow to size 5 only with production of 4th archer since workers don't eat while being built--or is that just settlers?)

I'd like to get the library started as soon as Writing comes in, but I think that extra power from the fourth archer may be necessary, so go Archer -> Archer -> Worker -> Library

Question: Is the ideal plan...
(a) finish worker and writing on the same turn after having generated 2 archers?, or
(b) finish 2 more archers and grow to size 5 as the 4th archer finishes, then go worker; subject to getting Writing asap?

Don't grow.

 

[Compromise]

Turns complete. I switched tile assignments for stagnation and max production. This allowed us to complete 2 archers asap and then the worker on the turn that Writing came in.

I worried about this, and kicked myself when it happened:

I went scouting SW--and met Isabella through her Buddhist holy city eyes seeing out of Elizabeth's Buddhist York to the south--but then got trapped when York's cultural border expanded. We can, of course, escape by opening borders with her, but then she'd have a path over to the seafood area along our west coast. :CompromiseTheFool:

Other than Elizabeth going Buddhist and our meeting Isabella through her holy eyes, nothing much happened. I got a bit panicked when I noticed this group of American archers:

Archers>

...but they appear to be simply protecting the worker there. They didn't move while I was watching.

As soon as Writing came in, I of course checked out the AI attitudes. All but one has "nothing to gain" or doesn't "like us enough" to consider attacking another AI at our request.

However...

But that may be because he's already at war. Otherwise, what explains the Incan drop in power in this graph?:

Hmmmm.

The save.

Edit: In my fascination with the newfound ability to communicate with the AI, it appears that I forgot to move the worker (and of course the trapped warrior). In retrospect, maybe the trapping of the warrior isn't so bad. We'd probably rather an English city get founded over there than an American city.

 

[Kodii]

I think our marble is safe (70%). In fact, our deer is in more danger (65%)

NOTE: Lizzy has marble outside London!

If we disband the warrior, will we go from -1GPT to +0GPT? If so, then we should probably do so. (Saves several turns off Alpha)

If we work 2 3H hills, deer and a grassland forest, we can finish the Library in 8T at -2 food until the deer are camped. We can finish the library in 9T at stagnant with 2 3H hills, deer and crabs.

Our borders expand in 8T.

 

[sooooo]

Nice turns. We need a worst enemy chart to see if anyone is anyone's worst enemy. Warmongerrespect and peacemongerrespect is going to come into play here. Washington, Asoka and Elizabeth get hidden peacemonger bonuses with each other, Toku, HC and Izzy get hidden warmonger bonuses. It would be nice to see if there are any more AIs on our continent. If we can free our warrior without opening borders with someone we don't want to (Is Lizzy a worst enemy? I can't check the save right now) then I think we should keep the warrior as he will be useful for exploration.

 

[ruff_hi]

The underlying code for WHEOOH is 'too many wars'. It can get shown if the AI is in a war but is probably only dangerous if they aren't in a war (ie they are planning for one).

 

[Jabah]

The warrior will explore, don't disband him (now atleast)

We should sign OB with England (if she is not anyone known worth ennemy) and go exploring from there to the South. and then probably to anyone without religion (after checking relation if possible)
We ahve to hope Lisa won't manage to sneak a settler in the next few turns (but since she could sail the settler, we should take the risk anyway).
No OB with Washington and Asoka for a while (they have religion and are as far as we could see, alone following their faith).

Capac power drop : I would like to believe he is at war, but it could also mean he lost a city to a cultural battle. We need to explore around.

Jabah

Lisa'marble : no worry, she is not industrious, but better be safe and not trading Alpha to her if possible.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Had a qucik check of the save, and we're OK with HC even if we are his planned target: none of the AIs has OBs. Until we can find out what exactly is going on we should check for OBs between him and GW.

Also, we should definitely OBS with Liz: there's a culture border in the extreme SW of the reveal map. Looks like Sal green...

We're losing control of marble (-16% in 8/9 turns) and deer rapidly: with Liz having Marble I'm leaning more towards a Philo bulb than a GLib gambit. Let's see how things look on learning Alpha.

Finally, we need to pre-promote the archers as they lose the fort bonus in Vanilla when promoted/upgraded.

 

[Jabah]

For the cultural aspect.

We will have a library soon, so we should be able to hold for a while.
I am not sure GLib and Philo bulb are incompatible (but also I am useless on the Scientist bulbing priority list ).
My first idea for the 1st GS (especially with GLib) was for an Academy which is also a good source of culture (4cpt, almost as much as a holy city). I am still thinking it is better on the long term.

Anyway all that could be discuss after Alpha.

Jabah

 

[Jabah]

Also

I am up, I have the save, I will have a proper look to check everything and propose an action plan for the round (plan to post in a few hours).
I will anyway wait a bit before playing to let everyone have a chance to comment (either tonight if we have no problem, or tomorrow if the discussion is more delicat).

I suggest i stop (for the orund or for a pause) after the library is completed.

Jabah

 

[chmoosi]

Yeah we should discuss whether to build an academy or bulb with the first GS. Academy's a very nice thing to have and in case we use the first GS for bulbing, we shouldn't build any GA-polluting buildings until the next GS arrives and gives us the academy.

Also, is someone keeping track of the culture % of the marble tile so we can make some predictions when the time of GL comes near?

And what's the final word about OBs? Lizzie is cool I think, and wouldn't it actually be better if she built the coast city nearer to Malabar so we could have a chance of crushing it culturally? The only question is if the city has any chance of taking away our own tiles..