SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

I was posting a link to the leaders list Monday, and my internet connection disappeared.
Now i got it back, but officially the new provider is not yet active.

GB, too many things to be discussed or rediscussed, and most of them can surely be solved after your TS.

I think your goals for your TS are:
1) grow the capital to 6 while producing the exploring WB
2) if the growth is not achieved start another WB or a warrior
3) after size 6 start a settler
4) all the above while keeping 2 scientists at work
5) research: complete sailing, start Myst then Masonry
6) sign OB with Shaka

all the other things can be discussed after your TS, but please go ahead, we played 3 TSs in 17 days.

Just one word about the Marble city: (tested again with WB, to be sure)
the quarry gives 1F 3H 2G
If we settle on the marble the city will gain 1H (like settling on a PH) and the workshop gives 3H with Caste.
So settlin' on the marble we'll loose 1 food and 2G, but gain 1H (more after Guilds and Chem), but we'll gain access to the north fish, and if we want we can avoid to steal the fish from the capital.
IMHO this's by far better than settle 1S of Marble.
Until we don't reach MC, if settle on marble the city can work the 2 GrassL forests of the capital.

 

[greatbeyond]

Not much new to report. It took awhile but our Scout is now in Shaka's Land heading for the GH. Our WB has explored to the North and has found a new Island, though so far no continents or other Civs.

A Barb Warrior has appeared 2N of the 2nd Cows. We had better build another Warrior before completing the Settler.
Our Worker has been busy building roads as there isn't anything else for him to do yet.

We have 1T left in PH. We are working the Clams, Fish, Gold, and Cows, and have two Scientists. The Settler will be completed in 5T but if we change to build Warrior #2 (3T) it will be 8turns. We will have our GS in 9 turns. If we switch one of the Scientists back to production, we can complete both much faster.

Session Turn Log:

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 2480 BC to 2000 BC:

Turn 38, 2480 BC: You have constructed a Library in Fifthburg. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.
Turn 38, 2480 BC: Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!

Turn 39, 2440 BC: You have discovered Sailing!

Turn 42, 2320 BC: You have discovered Mysticism!

Turn 46, 2160 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!

Turn 48, 2080 BC: You have discovered Masonry!

AutoLog:

Spoiler :

Fifthburg grows: 5
Fifthburg finishes: Library
Tech learned: Sailing
Research begun: Mysticism (3 Turns)
Tech learned: Mysticism
Research begun: Polytheism (4 Turns)
Fifthburg grows: 6
Fifthburg finishes: Work Boat
Fifthburg begins: Settler (8 turns)
Tech learned: Polytheism
Research begun: Masonry (2 Turns)
Tech learned: Masonry
Research begun: Priesthood (2 Turns)

The Save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm8/Fifth_Element_SG008_BC2000_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Screenshots:

 

[greatbeyond]

Interesting analysis on Marble Island Blubmuz. I'll take a look at it and see how each city location would affect us.

 

[BLubmuz]

Seems a good TS, we can change or adjust our plan, nothing wrong happened.
It's because i ran lots of tests that i'm a bit "fascist" about plan B as i conceived it. To be more correct, i used some inputs of other members to elaborate it.

Now we have to decide if we want the GS in 9 turns or if we can delay him a bit to increase production.

In my tests i kept the scout in the center of the jungle, to fogbust, but of course in the actual game we need to explore. That barb warrior is a trouble, we must deal with him.

Horses in the island north are interesting. We can circumnavigate it and go scout the NE coast of our continent.

Note:
tired to foolin'round looking for the rosters, now i post it (and try to keep up-to-date) in post #3
Next is berserks, so Sweeta has time to absorb the latest discussions.

Let's refine our plan and try to play in 2 days from now!

 

[WastinTime]

Things are going pretty far off my test plan, but it may turn out better, I'll need to run a test from here. In my test, I quickly built the 1st settler after size 5 (not 6) To do that in 7 turns (t46) I had to skip scientists. This was essential for me to get the 2nd city on the oracle soon enough. I'm not sure when we can get it in now. The solution may be that now we have to settle on the marble. That gets the resource 6 turns sooner. EDIT: The risk now is if there is a seafood south of marble that we can't reach. Let's hope for one that we can reach.

I'd recommend cutting both scientists until 1st settler is finished though. On the upside, your research is several turns ahead of mine.

In my tests I ran a lot of slavery. I liked it, so caste is not even something we may run that much. A workshop/plains is 0 food 2 hammer.

 

[WastinTime]

$700 billion rescue plan for the Oracle:

Scout, go west. WB sail west.

That barb is very far away. Let's ignore him until he gets closer...so no 2nd warrior yet.

Fire both scientists and build a settler in 3 turns. Then galley, settler. We may be able to hire 1 scientist, but I doubt it.

Parma will need some careful MM.
The worker can road the tile he's on, but then needs to fix up Parma, so no mine at current location. Mine Parma's hill, and then be ready to pasture the 1st turn borders expand. Then 2nd mine. Parma needs to grow to 3 ASAP, by the time the marble city turns on marble, so I think we're better off working grass/forest until the pigs are ready...maybe not, working the mine might be better.

 

[culdeus]

We can not assume that there are 0 resources to the SE of the marble island. Lets create plans for both contingencies.

I don't see a land bridge off to the NE of the horses? Where do you see one? Never mind. Misread something in a hurry.

 

[BLubmuz]

I found pointless talk about if and in case.
To see if Marble island has access to a seafood in the west or in south, is enough to unload the settler on marble, then go SW with the galley.
If there is a seafood we can't see now, he can settle 1S of marble, otherwise he will settle on it. We'll need to have a worker ready to quarry, in case.
Remember the quarry is the longest improvement to build and it needs a road, too.

WT, with Caste the workshop is 3H.
And if we want revolt in the same turn, we can do it.
Remember we don't know BW, thus we can't revolt to slavery.
The marble city can be a GP farm only with Caste, with slavery it will have to wait too much.

Land bridge north? who talk about this?

 

[WastinTime]

workshop is 2 on grass. It is only 3 if on plains (which means no food). It's like a desert/mine.

We've backed ourselves into a corner on the marble island, no pun intended. If we settle 1S of marble now, the oracle will come after turn 80 instead of 74. We need little luck is all. With city 2 coming in 10 turns late, we simply don't have time for a quarry.

You can't really GP farm the Prophet we need first, or the engineers. So Marble city has to do something else for 100 turns.

 

[dutchfire]

@BLubmuz: I see you put me in the roster, but I'd prefer to be a non-playing member. It seems we've got enough turnplayers right now, and my civ-time is severly limited. I can visit the forums from university computers, but I can't play there.

 

[culdeus]

Can't marble city whip a navy? That's what I've been doing with it after the library.

Why would it delay the oracle? The marble was never a factor in oracle completion in your log or my tests. I still don't think t74 was realistic. Especially with the MM in this compared to whatever you utilized.

We definately need an oracle bailout plan first, but nothing I see makes me think the marble city will delay it. A small boost might come from building a second worker before the 4th settler, but not enough to matter.

 

[WastinTime]

t74 was very realistic. All it required was rushing the 2nd city out on t46. The city was so early that it almost didn't need the marble. However, it did shave off a couple turns. The only way to make up for the loss of hammers is to get marble turned on sooner. I think we can still do t75, maybe even still pull off 74. It could all turn out better than my test. We can camp the Ivory sooner so the capitol can grow again.

 

[berserks01]

Scout, go west. WB sail west.

That barb is very far away. Let's ignore him until he gets closer...so no 2nd warrior yet.

Fire both scientists and build a settler in 3 turns. Then galley, settler. We may be able to hire 1 scientist, but I doubt it.

Parma will need some careful MM.
The worker can road the tile he's on, but then needs to fix up Parma, so no mine at current location. Mine Parma's hill, and then be ready to pasture the 1st turn borders expand. Then 2nd mine. Parma needs to grow to 3 ASAP, by the time the marble city turns on marble, so I think we're better off working grass/forest until the pigs are ready...maybe not, working the mine might be better.

That sounds like what my TS will be

 

[WastinTime]

That sounds like what my TS will be

If you're next, then yes, those suggestions are mostly for the next TS. There are still a few details you'll need to work out, and there are possibly some other vastly different strategies that others might post. Someone thought a 2nd worker might help, and there is a BW/chopping approach. Above is how I see the Oracle out on t74, 75 at the latest.

 

[culdeus]

If you're next, then yes, those suggestions are mostly for the next TS. There are still a few details you'll need to work out, and there are possibly some other vastly different strategies that others might post. Someone thought a 2nd worker might help, and there is a BW/chopping approach. Above is how I see the Oracle out on t74, 75 at the latest.

What about mining the pigs at first chance instead of camping the ivory. What will having a Size 7 Capital help with the oracle?

 

[Merum]

Hey guys... I'm sorry to say that I really don't have the time to devote to this game. I'm going to have to drop to lurker status for this one. Good luck with it!

 

[Mesix]

Sorry that I have been absent for a few days. I picked up Colonization and wasted my limited gaming time trying to figure out its broken game mechanics.

It looks like there is at least one wonder building AI in the game. Stonehenge was completed by an AI already. If I were a betting man, I would bet that the designer of this scenario put all the wonder building AIs on the other continent and gave us Shaka (and possibly one additional AI that doesn't build wonders) to prevent us from capturing wonders close to home.

 

[BLubmuz]

My internet connection is a temporary thing, it works in some way, i have to be patient for a few days.

I think that our mistakes about the settler are due to what i said: is pointless talk about mid game strategy, and do not refine the immediate tactics.

I remember that in my attempt (from which Plan B was born) i built the settler before the library. Then WT demonstrated that the plan can go even better with library first, but we forgot to detail in which turn the settler must be ready for a optimal result.

Now, please let's limit our discussion to the best way to realize our CS sling and play faster our TSs.
When we'll be hopefully successful on this, we can stop and draw a strategy for the mid game.

I've seen Merum and Dutch posts: ok guys, i'll put you as lurkers.
If you got time you can always inform us, and i'll put you back in the roster.

 

[culdeus]

My internet connection is a temporary thing, it works in some way, i have to be patient for a few days.

I think that our mistakes about the settler are due to what i said: is pointless talk about mid game strategy, and do not refine the immediate tactics.

I remember that in my attempt (from which Plan B was born) i built the settler before the library. Then WT demonstrated that the plan can go even better with library first, but we forgot to detail in which turn the settler must be ready for a optimal result.

Now, please let's limit our discussion to the best way to realize our CS sling and play faster our TSs.
When we'll be hopefully successful on this, we can stop and draw a strategy for the mid game.

I've seen Merum and Dutch posts: ok guys, i'll put you as lurkers.
If you got time you can always inform us, and i'll put you back in the roster.

The plan for fastest oracle is from my tests to fire the scientists, have the GH mined prior to settlement and have the settler start the oracle asap. Will work the GH till worker mines the pigs, work the pigs for one turn then work the GH and mined pigs while the worker moves to quarry the marble in city 3. This buys about 1 turn on the oracle, but without an accurate test game it's hard to project what it will equate to with our game precisely.

In the tests we get roaring out of the blocks with the slingshot and shaka is a hopeless foe if we have any metal at all for a mace rush after rushing mids and GLH.

The "mine pigs" does set us back on future growth for city 2, but buys somewhere between 1 and 2 turns on the oracle and is compounded with a marble hookup in the last turns. Both the academy and a big city 2 are delayed in exchange for the huge beaker gain in the slingshot.

 

[BLubmuz]

The settler mistake doesn't cost us more than 3 turns, i think, so keep it quiet.

Culdeus, build a quarry means you give for certain another seafood is in Marble city (Carrara?) BFC.
If not, we can settle it ON the marble and send a worker there to build a workshop after MC.

As i already said, i'm strongly against Slavery, and strongly for Caste.

Berserks, please post a detailed plan of your TS before play.

We has lot of discussions before GB's one, but never seen a detailed plan!