SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

[dutchfire]

Good luck with changing provider. Over here, that usually ends in a mess.

It seems we'll be doing plan B, but I'd like GB to post some detailed plans for his TS.

 

[greatbeyond]

I've been busy and haven't been able to commit quite as much thought to our current situations since the end of Culdeus' turn. Most of my tests/thoughts don't start from where he left off, so i'm going to redo them from our latest position.
Do we build or capture? So far in my tests out to about T200, Shaka did not build any wonders. Does anyone know if their is a civ trait for the priority an AI will build wonders? Is it perhaps more likely for those that have a wonder friendly trait, such as 100% Great people? Perhaps the game designer has given us all Civs that don't tend to build many wonders, meaning capturing their cities won't give us many wonders.

This leads to the question which strategy to pursue:
Build most wonders ourselves call this the BWO strategy - This would require probably 6 to 8 cities. The results of a previous test with 4 good cities yielded this result:
Wonders built:
T83 Oracle City #2 Take MC
T98 Pyramids City #1
T103 Parthenon City #4
T108 GL City #1
Colossus City #2
T115 Shweagon Paya City #2
T137 MOM City #4
T154 Chichen Itza City #2
T168 Sistine Chapel City #4
T162 Moai Statues City #3 (It takes a long time to get the city up to production speed. Once the MS are completed it is much better)

Great Persons
T111 GA born from Drama in City #1
T113 GE in City #1
T128 GM in City #2
T136 GE in City #1
T145 GS in City #4
T162 GA in city #4
T170 GS in city #1
Keep in mind these results are not optimal and could be tweaked to give better results.

This strategy would require a focus on being powerful enough so that as we got to the sweet spot of the wonders/turn (WPT) curve we could win very quickly from whatever VC we can complete.

Capture all wonders (CAW) - aiming to conquer as quickly as possible, not building any wonders ourselves. This assumes that the AI Civs will build enough wonders to make this strategy high on the WPT curve. I am pretty sure we can get a Conquest or Domination win fairly early. But the WPT score depends exclusively on the AI. I would expect win dates would be fairly early, but WPT to be lower.

[Middle of the Road (MOR) - A hybrid strategy which is probably the one that most teams will follow.

Of these I prefer the BWO strategy because it gives us the most control over our fate. I think we need to figure out which we are going to follow and stick with it. I think it was WastinTime who proposed the wisdom in our last SGOTM of picking a victory goal and sticking with it. So what do we think?

I should be able to accomplish a couple of tests tonight.

 

[BLubmuz]

GB, i'll read carefully tomorrow your post.
Now i remember i promise a list of the wonder-oriented leaders.
Tomorrow i'll post it.

I suppose you missed something from our last posts.
In turn 83, or close, we'll take CS from the Oracle.

Tomorrow, late here.

 

[greatbeyond]

City placement: Let's consider them and come up with a plan. I will try to attach a numbered/lettered grid for reference later. We can decide where each city should go and why. FWIW, in my original map I would eliminate City 5 as Shaka will probably settle there. Thus City 6 will become city 5.
I know this may seem premature, but agreement now lets us all test different scenarios from the same start.

Proposals are:

 

[greatbeyond]

Good Luck on the provider change Blubmuz.

I know the CS sling was different from the results I posted. They were just a guide to show what is possible.

 

[culdeus]

City placement: Let's consider them and come up with a plan. I will try to attach a numbered/lettered grid for reference later. We can decide where each city should go and why. FWIW, in my original map I would eliminate City 5 as Shaka will probably settle there. Thus City 6 will become city 5.
I know this may seem premature, but agreement now lets us all test different scenarios from the same start.

Proposals are:

How in the world could you get a T70s Oracle with the blue city where it is. Has to be 1E of that right?

 

[WastinTime]

We will have an off-continent city (on the marble), which should give us a +2 traderoute in every city. With the Great lighthouse and a 2/3 shaka cities, our ToA city should be bringing in 8*2=16 commerce/turn in traderoutes.

So I built the ToA for the first time ever. It's a bigger piece of junk than I thought it would be. I thought it was for ALL cities! Only one get's the benefit. And it's obsolete w/ Sci Method.

I have no idea where the 16 comes from (above), but I get exactly +1 for each route. So that's a big +3 with GLH and it will be a whopping +4 when currency comes along. This is not worth the GP pollution or the hammers...let's capture this wonder.

 

[BLubmuz]

Here the leader's attitude in building wonders:

<LeaderHeadInfo><Type>	<iWonderConstructRand>
BARBARIAN			 0
MONTEZUMA			 0
SITTING_BULL			 0
BOUDICA				10
BRENNUS				10
CHURCHILL			10
DE_GAULLE			10
GANDHI				10
GENGHIS_KHAN			10
HANNIBAL			10
CHINESE_LEADER			10
NAPOLEON			10
RAGNAR				10
SALADIN				10
SHAKA				10
CHARLEMAGNE			15
ALEXANDER			20
ELIZABETH			20
FREDERICK			20
ISABELLA			20
JOAO				20
JULIUS_CAESAR			20
MANSA_MUSA			20
MEHMED				20
FRANKLIN_ROOSEVELT		20
SULEIMAN			20
TOKUGAWA			20
WANGKON				20
WASHINGTON			20
WILLEM_VAN_ORANJE		20
ZARA_YAQOB			20
BISMARCK			30
CATHERINE			30
JUSTINIAN			30
KUBLAI_KHAN			30
LINCOLN				30
PETER				30
QIN_SHI_HUANG			30
STALIN				30
VICTORIA			30
ASOKA				40
AUGUSTUS			40
CYRUS				40
DARIUS				40
GILGAMESH			40
HAMMURABI			40
HATSHEPSUT			40
HUAYNA_CAPAC			40
PACAL				40
PERICLES			40
SURYAVARMAN			40
LOUIS_XIV			50
RAMESSES			50

 

[BLubmuz]

Let's try to be tuned.

GB, your dot map is similar to one posted by Dutch: it's a way to optimize land, not cities.
All the cities you propose are crappy, and the one in the marble island needs too many time to be good, despite the quarry. The quarry itself took too much to be built.
The one in the point is totally useless.
Plan B means also the city placement for ALL our 4 cities, all up before or around turn 74.

All 4 cities MUST be at least decent for production, commerce and GP generation.
The Marble one with a workshop and working the 2 forest tiles of the capital can be decent too, and build the Moai to become good.

Of course we can't build all the wonders ourselves, so it will be a mixed strategy.
We got to build only the ones giving us real, immediate benefits.
But it's soon to decide on this, now we have to arrive to the damn CS sling.
If we fail, we'll be in trouble.

Next build after the exploring WB will be a settler, to settle Parma where the majority already decided it has to be.

WT, the main benefit i see from the ToA is the free priest, but usually i'm not a fan of that wonder. Dutch numbers about the TR income seemed a bit high. I can easily forget it, but better discuss later, as later we'll better know our situation.

 

[greatbeyond]

How in the world could you get a T70s Oracle with the blue city where it is. Has to be 1E of that right?

I think you're referring to the city map that Dutchfire proposed.
The city placement I favor and used is the bottom left.

I'm not sure why I couldn't place the pictures where I wanted them and label them.

I will try to give my thoughts on all the different city locations proposed. This will have to include some play analysis to see what each location is capable of. I will provide figures for the ones in my screenshot of HPT, FPT and GPT.

I'm not sure what the concern is with the Marble City Blubmuz. It seems we have all agreed a city would be there. Is it the timing, you think it's too early to settle it? I know it is not the best location, but if we want Marble we will have to settle the island. I think you had proposed at one point settling on the Marble to get immediate access. The problem with that is it leaves us very few hammers to build the MS. Once we have the MS the Hammer count for the city should be respectable. From my best test, I built the MS at T163.

I will try to figure out when each city I have was built. I had to replace my PC and thought I saved the Autolog but can't find it. I do have the save so perhaps I can figure it out from there. But I know for a fact they were all built before T103 as I completed the Parthenon in City 4 on that turn.

 

[berserks01]

Looking at the list of leaders Blub posted, it's even more citical we know who our opponents are so we can maximize wonders to build vs wonders to capture.

@GB: I think the idea for the marble city is to get both fishes in its BFC.

 

[BLubmuz]

Again GB, i think we're out of sync.

I posted a dot map and a save (i can't post them again, the forum doesn't let me do it) with the city placement the majority and me found to be optimal. Not absolutely optimal, the best we can have from this map.
Me and WT already posted the autologs for this plan.

- City 2 should be SW of capital, with ivory and pigs. We don't care the overlap, there's plenty of anything to grow and produce.
- City 3 should be the Marble city, placed ON the marble, steal fish from capital and accessing 1 more fish, a perfect GP farm. It should be settled BEFORE we start the Oracle.
- City 4 should be 1 N of cows (IIRC), with a hill and access to the northern clams. There's some forest to chop, or to keep for lumbermills, plenty of grassland to cottage and workshop.

Workshops in BtS are just fine under Caste System.
After the Oracle we'll revolt to Bureau/Caste in 1 turn.
We already discuss about slavery, and it's dangerous in BtS. To be honest i rarely use it even in vanilla or warlords.

The reason why we're researching sailing is to settle the marble city.

Now, to be clear: i suppose you miss some of the discussion here (nothing to complain, if RL is busy), but please, don't ask to rediscuss things already decided, and widely tested.

If you missed the main plan is on post #3 on page 1.

For your problem with the images, the 2 on bottom are impossible to read. Usually i upload them with the "face" button, IIRC.

 

[culdeus]

Remember big and small does not world wrap. All we need are ships to go West across the north and south pole and equator with scouts and then hit the big landmass to find the remaining AI. Should be one more AI (maybe 2) in the "small". There theoretically won't be anyone due north or south of us. We should have all the little small islands to ourselves.

Wow, well if we are up against non-wonder building AI then certainly we'll have no reason to go domination. That would be a real big twist on this.

There's some reason to perhaps wait on deciding for certain to settle on the marble. 6 tiles are still fogged to the SE of that island. Could certainly be another food resource out of reach with the settle on marble plan. In the tests I've done there's plenty of time to dump the worker prior to the settler to get a road down. Pickup and dropoff the settler, then explore a bit, and come back and get the worker back to the main island in time to chop the mids. It's about a 10 turn diversion for the worker and we will need the galley to explore anyways.

Maybe it should wait till post Mids, however. That I'm willing to see. I had been settling it as City 3 just in time to get the oracle date a little sooner. Plus sailing allows us to spread confuc to shaka earlier also. Well worth it.

I haven't tested the SE City 2. Only 5W for oracle. I'll try that next. It still affords the ability to work a pre mined PH before the boder pops which is the major advantage of 5W.

I've tested some games a little longer now. The lack of hammers in the cities outside the capital becomes a huge burden for later wonders. It's for this reason perhaps we need to look out to the other exposed land for hammer rich city sites. That long "italy" shaped region might hold some promise if a bronze or iron pops up down there. I still am guessing that we will have no metal and will have to go there for it.

 

[culdeus]

Here the leader's attitude in building wonders:

Would you mind editing this into one of the first couple posts so we can find it easier later?

I also find it funny that some of the leaders that actually presided over some of the wonders actually in the game have low wonder % while leaders who built none have the highest.

 

[WastinTime]

A few comments on various topics:

1) A free priest is like saying 2 free food. I vote pass on Artemis.

2) City overlap is good. Especially with the capitol. It's a great way to get all the capitol's cottages up to towns...have the neighbor cities work them.

3) In my tests I never built on the Marble itself, just the island. Building on the marble seems like a waste. I know the oracle is almost done by the time the quarry is in, but we can't build it any faster, cus Math isn't ready anyway.

4) There are no non-wonder building AI. That table is just a modifier which makes them more likely to build. Start a duel game with Sitting Bull or Monty and you'll see they build wonders too. And of course they all build shrines which need capturing. I think Domination is still on. Diplo is a possibility, but we probably need to attack everyone for at least 1 city.

 

[greatbeyond]

I have edited with my thoughts below, and added some about what I foresee in the next TS. If there isn't much comment, I will proceed in about 18 hours. Even though I prefer some changes, I follow the plan unless a new consensus is reached.

Again GB, i think we're out of sync. Not out of Sync, just looking for ways to improve our sucess.

I posted a dot map and a save (i can't post them again, the forum doesn't let me do it) with the city placement the majority and me found to be optimal. Not absolutely optimal, the best we can have from this map.
Me and WT already posted the autologs for this plan. We did discuss this and there were different opinions. I certainly will go along with the majority consensus, however I again think that as our plan might change we need to re examine our options. That is why I proposed evaluating each city site and giving it a designated purpose. Many thoughts about city placement have to do with what the city will be used for; production,wealth, or GP farm.

I don't believe my TS will see the Settler done yet, but here are my comments
- City 2 should be SW of capital, with ivory and pigs. We don't care the overlap, there's plenty of anything to grow and produce. My concerns with this aren't about maximizing land, as initially I chose the same spot. What I found though as the game progressed, was that the capitol tended to have very slow growth when giving the Fish to City #3 and the 4 tiles of overlap with City #2. I am not completely unhappy with the placement.I used this city as a production center with all the hills it has.
- City 3 should be the Marble city, placed ON the marble, steal fish from capital and accessing 1 more fish, a perfect GP farm. It should be settled BEFORE we start the Oracle. I understand why you want to settle on the Marble, which I could agree with if we are just going to run the Population up and run a GP factory. Because if we settle on the Marble it will take forever to build anything in this city. I have tried it both ways. I didn't use it as a GP farm because with all the Wonders I built in my tests, it wasn't necessary. I do agree that settling it before the Oracle is a good idea. I have not worked out the production que necessary for this yet
- City 4 should be 1 N of cows (IIRC), with a hill and access to the northern clams. There's some forest to chop, or to keep for lumbermills, plenty of grassland to cottage and workshop. This is probably the one I have the most concern with. It has only 1 hill and two forests for Hammer production, plus some from the cows. It is loaded with Jungle which we can't do anything about until we have IW. Even after it is cleared this will probably have to be a Gold producer, as it won't have enough hammers for Wonders and no large excess of food for a GP Farm. This city will not be contributing a whole lot in the earlier game. This is what led me to consider my city placement as a little more optimal, again, not just maximizing land, but maximizing and balancing early game production. This was largely influenced by my thinking the best way to go is to build as many Wonders as we can ourselves.

Have we agreed yet on what Wonders we will build other than the Pyramids. This probably needs more discussion.


Workshops in BtS are just fine under Caste System. Agree
After the Oracle we'll revolt to Bureau/Caste in 1 turn. Agree
We already discuss about slavery, and it's dangerous in BtS. To be honest i rarely use it even in vanilla or warlords. Agree

The reason why we're researching sailing is to settle the marble city. I prefer BW first as it allows us to Chop Settlers or finish Wonders earlier.Sailing only has two turns left so I would complete it then start BW.

Now, to be clear: i suppose you miss some of the discussion here (nothing to complain, if RL is busy), but please, don't ask to rediscuss things already decided, and widely tested. I try to go over each point and retest to see the best path. I have read and reread every post though I concede sometimes it is easy to miss a point. I certainly don't mean to come across as not respecting others experiences and skill which may be greater. Sometimes it doesn't seem clear that a consensus has been reached. We seem to be not getting as much input. I favor a thorough discussion before acting. "Measure twice, cut once" philosophy.As for the plan:
"TS5:38-50
OB with Shaka I would prefer not to because of many bad results with Shaka, but I haven't seen a lot of comments against this.
research: sailing in 2 - Myst-Poly-Priest-CoL (where do we put masonry here?) We are so close to finishing Sailing we might as well do it. I prefer BW after Sailing because I think we will need to chop some of the Oracle to beat the AI. You found in your tests that it certainly could happen, and I don't want to take that chance. Masonry should probably come before COL just in case we need to get the Oracle done quicker.
finish WB, then settler Complete WB and explore upper upper landmass first. Build Settler, build Warrior to sentry in Capitol (Do we already have 2?) and send other Warrior to bait the Lion. Usually being sentried in the Forest will cause the Lion to attack and Lose.

If you missed the main plan is on post #3 on page 1.

For your problem with the images, the 2 on bottom are impossible to read. Usually i upload them with the "face" button, IIRC.

 

[WastinTime]

I use worldbuilder to add a seafood resource to the marble city (hopeful thinking).
I get Moai (and library, lighthouse, granary) built around by around t140 (using a little slavery) This city should NOT be on the marble.

We have a ton of food in the capitol which can be used to build settlers. I wouldn't want to chop settlers.

I really, really want the GLH. It's been very powerful in my games. Every city is coastal. Since we have early sailing, we should be able to grab it.

I'd prefer to explore west instead of north, but not strongly.

Masonry after Myst is fine.

No BW needed. We can't chop the Oracle any faster because we need math first. The Oracle is complete on the same turn (if we plan it right.) Getting BW will delay math even more making chopping even more unnecessary.

I think the lion is dead already, isn't it?

 

[culdeus]

The lion has been sent for taxidermy.

Lets get this show on the road. I would really like a t73 test from post CS if someone can provide.

Bottom line: I'm a huge proponent of PlanB. I like the 1S of marble as city 3 and I'm un-sold on city 4 at this time. I'd like to have the opportunity to test some choices including perhaps if available a third island landing if exploration presents one. We will already have the galley. I'm thinking an island to the north or south of the marble might present a better city site as we are equator ish and the tropics usually yield some more hills (though I don't know the ins and outs of this map script by heart)

We can perhaps take a jungle city from shaka later after he develops it.

The only way to do this is to play through plan B and explore the seas some more. Lets get to priesthood and regroup.

 

[greatbeyond]

I haven't seen any other argument for BW after Sailing.I'll check in again before I start playing.

I forgot that the Lion was already disposed of.

Unless there is a hidden path SE of Marble Island, there won't be any connection to a landmass to the East. It will take a while to go around the South of our landmass, so West or North seem logical. Shaka has probably already explored West, so I'm thinking going North first gives us a little edge.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Checking in: it seems like I didn't have internet connections while I was away! Some good forward planning here, and there's just too much fog (in both map and game) to be too confident of our planning. I especially refer to city placement. I really hate having fog in proposed city sites. I'm not that impressed with our land, and perhaps early Shaka is the go. Plan B sounds fine, althouh city placemnt is still an issue.... anyway, I might go back for another read to get my head around everything.