Mesix
Obergruppenführer
That last screen shot shows 583 gold after razing Bulawaya. We may be able to run 100% research for a few turns to rush Astro. Then we will have trade routes with the other continent and we can pick our short term allies.
SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
berserks01
Obviously Very Confused
583 is the gold in our coffer. The razing only net 100 gold.
berserks01
Obviously Very Confused
I believe I had already mentioned that Shaka has a 3rd city to the left of his Copper city in my report.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Everybody know that. It's long time we can see those partial borders.
Those 2 cities were terribly placed. Unless Ondini has a seafood in BFC we must raze it. If we need to fill the land, there's room for a city on the PH 2W 1S of copper.
Raze Ondini, sue for peace, then wipe him.
Or sue for peace rfusing Ondini, split the stack in 2 and be prepared to finish him in 2 turns... i like best this last.
I can't sleep. Warning: I'm in a bad mood....
We just keep adding another 5 turns here and now there's talk of 10 more turns to this ridiculously executed war. We have like a dozen units going for the copper city. Overkill? And it looks like our wonderful super-healer is hanging out with the healthy troops, playin' a little golf like doctors tend to do I suppose. If you wanted the south city, you had to split the stack and get it way back when the horse city was taken.
We can just have fun, and politely say "nice TS" to everyone if that's what the team wants. Otherwise we need to discuss how this war could last over 50 turns (by the time we're done.) It comes down to 1) troop movement 2) lack of healer(s), 3) poor use of healers.
Movement: The path our troops took thru Zulu territory was not efficient, and it could be downright comical if we end up going down south. Our stack actually passed thru the tile which could have taken the horse city on the way to Ulundi. I don't understand how we can just wander around like this--on normal speed--and expect to finish domination.
We had no healer for half the war. We still have not promoted any regular units to be healers. The one supermedic we have moves too slowly. He needs 3 exp. When there's a badly damaged enemy unit (or chariot), he needs to attack.
Mesix wasn't clear. He said he wanted peace this turn if we get something. Well, we get:
Gold
gold/turn
a city
HBR
Trade routes w/ J
Happiness (no war weariness)
Stable - Eng will produce a chariot next turn (peace now means we put a stable in there first--good timing) Then pop out 4-5 chariots for police/healer duty.
We just keep adding another 5 turns here and now there's talk of 10 more turns to this ridiculously executed war. We have like a dozen units going for the copper city. Overkill? And it looks like our wonderful super-healer is hanging out with the healthy troops, playin' a little golf like doctors tend to do I suppose. If you wanted the south city, you had to split the stack and get it way back when the horse city was taken.
We can just have fun, and politely say "nice TS" to everyone if that's what the team wants. Otherwise we need to discuss how this war could last over 50 turns (by the time we're done.) It comes down to 1) troop movement 2) lack of healer(s), 3) poor use of healers.
Movement: The path our troops took thru Zulu territory was not efficient, and it could be downright comical if we end up going down south. Our stack actually passed thru the tile which could have taken the horse city on the way to Ulundi. I don't understand how we can just wander around like this--on normal speed--and expect to finish domination.
We had no healer for half the war. We still have not promoted any regular units to be healers. The one supermedic we have moves too slowly. He needs 3 exp. When there's a badly damaged enemy unit (or chariot), he needs to attack.
Mesix wasn't clear. He said he wanted peace this turn if we get something. Well, we get:
Gold
gold/turn
a city
HBR
Trade routes w/ J
Happiness (no war weariness)
Stable - Eng will produce a chariot next turn (peace now means we put a stable in there first--good timing) Then pop out 4-5 chariots for police/healer duty.
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
It'd be 10 turns after taking the peace treaty, I assume you meant that. i think we should certainly refuse Ondini, as it is poorly placed. Regarding taking peace earlier, WT, you are probably right, but recall that we didn't know which (where) city he was offering at that stage, and also wanted to take out his copper to make him impotent.
Of course the medic is with the healthy troops, as we are still on the same turn as the city was razed. You'll note that I moved 3 maces west (edit:actually it's not in the s/s) to get a look at the western city, with about 4 maces and the medic still with MPs left. I'm guessing this is your misunderstanding due to the limited info in the screenshot. Rest assured, he will end the turn with the wounded troops.
Another point was the 0% science... the fact that 2 libs were finishing next turn meant that there would be an extra 25%
in 2 cities, not much, but it's greater than 0. After that 1 turn, the slider was run at 70%, and it will run at 70 and 80% to finish astro and maintain at least 50
in the bank.Assuming that Mesix is happy with the HR deal (refuse the city), are we all happy with peace? Without metal and with negligible hope of getting feudalism for lbs, Shaka shouldn't be an issue in 10 turns. He may produce a few cats, tho, but we should still take minimal losses. This does mean that any war on Joao would be delayed by about 5 turns, wouldn't it? Is that acceptable? (Assuming we want to attack him)
It's 1.30am-ish again now and I need sleep,so will play in the morning. Plan is for the peace deal, race to Astro, and line up our 2 stacks to beat on Shaka in 10. All other points will go as in previous plan.
culdeus
Emperor
Ok finally got everything loaded last night after dumping the first installs and starting over. Had to copy the vanilla disk and use that to install then start it with the original one and patch vanilla, then back out and install bts and patch that. All told it was about 3 hours of time to get it rebuilt on the new (to me) system. Just got to put on the HOF and I'm all set again.
I did not misunderstand the healer. He should be with the wounded units near ulundi. Any units that get wounded on the copper city attack can rendezvous with the healer on their way to Joao. Since we're razing that city it won't be a good place to heal.
Ondini has cow and marble--which can be traded for lots of gold/turn. With TGLH effect, it might be a keeper as it will pay for itself.
I disagree with having our army sit around for 10 turns waiting to finish the pathetic Zulu. War with J will be delayed more like 10 turns (not 5). Move everyone to J's border. We can clean up Shaka any time. Heck, let him finish settling the south area. Once we get closer to communism (not that far away now) we can take and keep all his cities.
Ondini has cow and marble--which can be traded for lots of gold/turn. With TGLH effect, it might be a keeper as it will pay for itself.
I disagree with having our army sit around for 10 turns waiting to finish the pathetic Zulu. War with J will be delayed more like 10 turns (not 5). Move everyone to J's border. We can clean up Shaka any time. Heck, let him finish settling the south area. Once we get closer to communism (not that far away now) we can take and keep all his cities.
culdeus
Emperor
The only good thing to say about this war is that it came when we didn't have astro to do any damage to the other continent. Long term the delay here shouldn't matter. J can't be given this much room to expand and slow us down in the end I tend to agree we can move on J now without delay at least till he pops some longbows.
I'd like to see a forge in ulundi next. Lots o choppin coming there. Observ/univ/courthouse can come after forge.
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
Right, apologies, WT, I realised what you meant as I was dropping off to sleep.
Those damaged maces will have enough time to heal anyway in this case, but I agree in general.Ondini decision can wait, and army will marshall on Joao's border as planned.
@culdeus: good to have you back on the field
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
WT, some of your critics are correct, but i cannot accept the ones about the war lenght.
1) if Shaka DoWed 8-10 turns later, we was almost ready, and the war would be 8-10 turns shorter.
2) if Shaka DoWed 6-8 turns earlier, we was toasted: what was our force in that moment? 3 warriors, one spear, maybe one axe
My opinions is that we performed what in civ3 was called a "farmer's gambit": almost no military, great teching, structures, expansion to grab key resources.
We're luck to be in this position now: tech leaders on monarch, with that poor land is not a bad situation.
Sure we need more from now on, be better focused, have a strategy and follow it in any aspect.
That's why critics are welcome, better be harsh - if the case - than polite at all costs.
One of the main reasons we play an SG is to learn, and unfortunately one of the best ways to learn is from mistakes.
BTW, using the fresher attacker first, to suicide him after the best defensive unit is a tactic i always use
1) if Shaka DoWed 8-10 turns later, we was almost ready, and the war would be 8-10 turns shorter.
2) if Shaka DoWed 6-8 turns earlier, we was toasted: what was our force in that moment? 3 warriors, one spear, maybe one axe
My opinions is that we performed what in civ3 was called a "farmer's gambit": almost no military, great teching, structures, expansion to grab key resources.
We're luck to be in this position now: tech leaders on monarch, with that poor land is not a bad situation.
Sure we need more from now on, be better focused, have a strategy and follow it in any aspect.
That's why critics are welcome, better be harsh - if the case - than polite at all costs.
One of the main reasons we play an SG is to learn, and unfortunately one of the best ways to learn is from mistakes.
BTW, using the fresher attacker first, to suicide him after the best defensive unit is a tactic i always use
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
Thanks...I realized that. What I was trying to say is that with a war chest of 583 gold we can afford to run 100% science to knock a couple turns off Astronomy.
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
If we finish astronomy while we are finishing Shaka, we will be ready for Joao as the research completes opening up trade with the other continent.
I think that we can take about 4 maces to the northern city and finish it off. When that happens we will open coastal trade with Joao.
The rest of our army can go south to finish off Shaka while he is still licking his wounds. I personally don't want to waste time razing more cities because we got peace and allowed him to crank out a couple settlers.
We should be able to finish Shaka in one more turn set and have our troops poinsed to storm Joao. After Astronomy we should rush for rifelmen picking up Guilds and Banking along the way to improve our economy.
I think that we can take about 4 maces to the northern city and finish it off. When that happens we will open coastal trade with Joao.
The rest of our army can go south to finish off Shaka while he is still licking his wounds. I personally don't want to waste time razing more cities because we got peace and allowed him to crank out a couple settlers.
We should be able to finish Shaka in one more turn set and have our troops poinsed to storm Joao. After Astronomy we should rush for rifelmen picking up Guilds and Banking along the way to improve our economy.
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
We need to discuss the game plan to attacking Joao since his cities are not set up well to attack several on the turn that we DOW. His only metal is at Evora, but if he gets Feudalism then metal will not be necessary for him to build defenders. We may do well to take a stack past the 1st city straight for Evora and have a few troops come behind the first stack to take the city closest to us.
As far as the other continent goes, it looks like HRE is the whipping boy. He appears to be Buddist on a continent full of Hundus. Once we meet HRE we may want to make peace with him if we plan to take out his enemies one by one. Alternatively we may want to find a way to drive a wedge between a couple of target civs and the rest of the continent if we don't want to war with everyone all at one time. Gifting Liberalism to a couple of civs should get them to adopt Free Religion which will end the diplo bonus for shared religion.
If my count is correct then there are currently 27 Hindu cities and 13 Jewish cities. That is a whopping 40 GPT from the 2 shrines in Delhi. Is there really any other viable target for our spearhead onto that continent?
As far as the other continent goes, it looks like HRE is the whipping boy. He appears to be Buddist on a continent full of Hundus. Once we meet HRE we may want to make peace with him if we plan to take out his enemies one by one. Alternatively we may want to find a way to drive a wedge between a couple of target civs and the rest of the continent if we don't want to war with everyone all at one time. Gifting Liberalism to a couple of civs should get them to adopt Free Religion which will end the diplo bonus for shared religion.
If my count is correct then there are currently 27 Hindu cities and 13 Jewish cities. That is a whopping 40 GPT from the 2 shrines in Delhi. Is there really any other viable target for our spearhead onto that continent?
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
Delhi may be a better site for Wall Street than Parma.
I say we drive straight to Lisbon taking all cities along the way, no backtracking. Possible peace treaty then if there isn't much culture pressure from the surrounding cities. Otherwise, take the northern cities, heading to Gandhi.
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
Sorry for the most delayed ts in the history of CiV. I had a 3 hour window to get it all done and posted yesterday, which should have been comfortable, but instead I was battling smitfraud. Special thanks for the creator of that virus. 
Things went off pretty well, which most cities doing their library, lh, granary, forge kind of things. In addition, the first missionary is on the caravel, a spy is heading for Joao, and a few cats are rolling toward the front. We got a GE!!
The war...was over in part 1. Unfortunately I made 2 errors. Firstly, after stopping for advice, upon loading to end the war, I looked around for MMing, and then pressed enter.
One lost turn of peace. Oh well. The second error was amassing our mace stack on the border on the turn astro finished in order to attack, but we can't attack until next turn, being 10 turns after the wine deal. I'm not sure if this will put him "on alert" 1 turn early. Anyway, no big deal.
3 wonders were built IDL (check the turn log), and Gandhi finished philosophy and hence has taoism. Charlie and Boudi both got GGs, and so must still be bickering.
It looks like I only took 1 screenshot,and it's of the astro splash screen
I won't bother with that. So, a debarcle of a turnset with a boring report. One of my best.
not before time <--
edit:I forgot to add that while the chariot scouted his nearest 2 cities, Joao had roughly 12 units floating around,mainly sword, axe, and archer, and also sent 1 axe down toward Shaka. It might be worth diverting 1 mace for southern protection. Also it'd be advisable not to have the medic as the only spear in a stack.
Things went off pretty well, which most cities doing their library, lh, granary, forge kind of things. In addition, the first missionary is on the caravel, a spy is heading for Joao, and a few cats are rolling toward the front. We got a GE!!
The war...was over in part 1. Unfortunately I made 2 errors. Firstly, after stopping for advice, upon loading to end the war, I looked around for MMing, and then pressed enter.
One lost turn of peace. Oh well. The second error was amassing our mace stack on the border on the turn astro finished in order to attack, but we can't attack until next turn, being 10 turns after the wine deal. I'm not sure if this will put him "on alert" 1 turn early. Anyway, no big deal.3 wonders were built IDL (check the turn log), and Gandhi finished philosophy and hence has taoism. Charlie and Boudi both got GGs, and so must still be bickering.
It looks like I only took 1 screenshot,and it's of the astro splash screen
I won't bother with that. So, a debarcle of a turnset with a boring report. One of my best. Spoiler autolog :
Set to Joao 'til we can see his demographics, then we can even it out or decide on the next target.
Spoiler turnlog :
not before time <--
edit:I forgot to add that while the chariot scouted his nearest 2 cities, Joao had roughly 12 units floating around,mainly sword, axe, and archer, and also sent 1 axe down toward Shaka. It might be worth diverting 1 mace for southern protection. Also it'd be advisable not to have the medic as the only spear in a stack.
I'm looking around the save file and see mostly good things. You were able to get Astron in 10 turns. Great! We got a GE!! I'm shocked. Woulda bet money on GM. This in an excellent bit of luck.
I'm surprised to see the army so far east. When the new city popped up, I would have split the army to attack both of J's cities simultaneously. I'll probably delay the war to move them into the proper position for a quicker war. He also has a scary axe (and archer) in our land, so I'll have to guard against that. Your idea of holding back 1 mace might be wise...or maybe just build a new one and send it to the front.
Picky things:
We have 3 workers on the same forest. That's not good management of movement cost.
We have a cottage no one is working.
It is a sin that Marbles has no lighthouse or granary yet. That city should have been a slavery machine and those 2 buildings should have been in (or certainly the lighthouse) before those workers were built so long ago.
We had a debate going on what to do with the GG. By default he's sleeping, but saving him was only one of the choices we had. Catapults with 3 exp are like cats with 0 exp, so I was leaning towards an instructor for the cats. However, I'm still worried about WestPoint needing a level 6 unit, and I'd like a 2nd healer.
I'll work on a plan tomorrow. Lots of fun stuff ahead.
I'm surprised to see the army so far east. When the new city popped up, I would have split the army to attack both of J's cities simultaneously. I'll probably delay the war to move them into the proper position for a quicker war. He also has a scary axe (and archer) in our land, so I'll have to guard against that. Your idea of holding back 1 mace might be wise...or maybe just build a new one and send it to the front.
Picky things:
We have 3 workers on the same forest. That's not good management of movement cost.
We have a cottage no one is working.
It is a sin that Marbles has no lighthouse or granary yet. That city should have been a slavery machine and those 2 buildings should have been in (or certainly the lighthouse) before those workers were built so long ago.
We had a debate going on what to do with the GG. By default he's sleeping, but saving him was only one of the choices we had. Catapults with 3 exp are like cats with 0 exp, so I was leaning towards an instructor for the cats. However, I'm still worried about WestPoint needing a level 6 unit, and I'd like a 2nd healer.
I'll work on a plan tomorrow. Lots of fun stuff ahead.
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
The GG would make a great maceman (eventually a rifelman). Attach him to a fresh unit that is alone (to maximize the exp). Give him +100% exp and 3 CR levels followed by combat promotions. He can upgrade for free as we tech. He will easily be level 6 by the time we conquer Joao and take a couple cities on the other continent. Building West Point on the other continent makes the most sense.
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