SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

[berserks01]

Oh Oh yeah ... wonders

All this discussion about whether Vienne is an HRE city or a Celtic city is throwing me off. Does it matter which AI it belongs to? We just need the wonder cities, leave it alone if it does not have any wonders in it when the AI is willing to capitulate.

Edit: Nevermind. I see now, you're worried about culture flips.

 

[Mesix]

I can play anytime after Saturday. I am busy writing papers for three classes this week, but once those are through it will be nothing but free time.

Just let me know when it is my turn.

 

[greatbeyond]

Finally I had a little time to look at the save in depth. Please bear with me if I mention something already discussed. I tried to make sure I didn't beat a dead horse.

GP thoughts:
I may have missed this. What is our plan for the GG in Nobamba?
Our current Great People:
GE in Engineering, another GE (88% chance) in 7T
GA in Marbles
GE, GM, GS in Fifthburg

We need a GM for Alum co ~ 34T and a GS for Std Ethanol ~46T. Other than that, any other Great people we get we should have some kind of a plan for. The GE we have should be used to rush one of the more Hammer intensive wonders. The GE we get from Engineering (88% chance) can be saved for Mining Inc which we don't need for 21T. I would wait until we make sure we get the GE before we use one to wonder rush.

Delhi could work all Priests and produce a GP in 8T. We don't need a GP unless we are going to use it to build a Shrine. We could conceivably mix the Priests and GMs to hopefully get a GM, but what we really need are GAs, unless we are going to use a GP for a golden age

Research:
Gandhi needs to be switched to research Biology or something else we will need but don't have.
If we are going to get Corp in a trade we could research Bio, then Medicine after MM.

We should wait to vassalize Boudicea until we take Bilbactre and then get Corp in a trade. The downside to this is it will probably take us another 2TS to get Bilbactre. Once we do, if we end up with a spare GA, we could culture bomb it to expand it's borders quickly.

Production:
Ulundi should lose one Merchant and work the Copper, producing the Baray in 6T instead of 10T. Then I would concentrate on getting a GA from there to use as a culture bomb. Based on our current tech path, we won't be needing a GM for about 27T (Cereal Mills - Refrigeration). The alternative would be to use a GM for a trade mission to get some more money.
Bombay - get rid of the Spy and switch to an Engineer
Varamasi - it's only producing 13G, switch to a Theater (2T) and then try for GAs
Potalipatra - same as above
Agra - is working 3 spies. When it comes out of Anarchy (3T) they need to be switched to something useful
Calcutta - same as above
Nobamba and Bombay are building Maces - We don't have the money to upgrade, so let's build Rifles, Cannons, or Cavalry.
Faro - stop working the Marble and work a sea tile. We need it to grow. It will probably only be good for producing money

A look at the production screen shows many cities that are producing Wealth but not generating any Gold or such a small amount that they would be better served producing something else. For instance, Brayaga could produce a WB for the Whale, or Military as we are going to need more than we have.

 

[Mesix]

Due to specialist pollution, I would not recommend using any great people until we have extras for the required corp HQ. Each Corp HQ counts as a wonder. If we get an extra GE, GA, or GM later, we can use the benefits then.

Here are a list of the required great people:

GS for Aluminum Inc.
GS for Standard Ethanol
GE for Mining Inc.
GE for Creative Constructions
GM for Cereal Mills
GM for Sid Sushi
GA for Civilized Jewelers

It would be a good idea to plan for all seven and then burn the extra great person if we are not going to tech that far. As our conquest has delayed our turn 250 finish, there is a good chance that we can research all the necessary techs...especially if we can get vassals to research along a different path and trade with us.

 

[culdeus]

Sorry, guys my life is pretty hectic. I'm expecting a baby soon and have been periodically tied up getting the things together at home for this. I think it may be best if i convert to lurker. I had every intention of playing Sunday, but fell behind getting things together and didn't make it. Very sorry for the delay.

 

[MacBalt]

I could post a plan by late Thursday or Friday and play Saturday or Sunday, but not before then. After Friday I should be significantly more flexible, so I'm happy to wait some days if necessary too. Feel free to stick me in the order anytime after then, BLubmuz.

 

[BLubmuz]

If GB can post a plan and play before Sunday, better, we can push it a bit.
edit: Reading his last post, he seems to be well prepared to afford a TS.
Just bear in mind we probably need to take 1 city west and 1 north of Bibra, so we can avoid to culture bomb.

Then Balth can post/play Fri/Sun if GB is reactive enough

Since the 2 TSs are tied and short, i don't think there're problems.

Culdeus, please confirm: Lurker 'til the end or just some swap?

 

[MacBalt]

Finally I had a little time to look at the save in depth.

Quick Thoughts:

• I don't know what to with the GG -- I'd settle him in our military production city, I guess, unless we feel we don't need to produce a lot more troops.
• I don't think we want a Great Prophet or Great Artists if we can help it. We certainly don't want to burn any Great Person for any reason until we've got enough to cover the corporations. Mesix's post has a full list so see that one to be sure, but I think we still need a GM and maybe a GS (if we're very late in winning).
• Good thought on switching Gandhi. No suggestions b/c I can't see the save right now. Bio seems good.
• I would NOT bomb a Great Artist in Bibracte. The culture value of the Artist won't come close to the amount of Celtic culture already accumulated in this old an area of that Empire. Even if we bomb the artist, the cultural pressure is still likely to be enough to send the city into revolt. We need to capture the nearby cities -- no way around it.
• We NEED a Great Merchant. If Ulundi is our best shot at getting it, then please don't lower our chances by firing one of the Merchants we are currently employing. (Once again, I can't be sure b/c I can't open the save right now.)
• Please Do Not under any circumstances use a GM for a trade mission until we have the two we need already in the bag.
• Agree about firing all the spys. Not so sure about theaters and artists. We need to keep our gold flowing in order to keep the science rate high. Theaters and artists should probably only be the focus in areas where we really *need* culture.
• Nobamba and Bombay should build Maces so we can take the two City Raider promotions right off the bat and then upgrade them to Rifles. We'll find the gold to do that somewhere when the time comes. Hopefully, we're about to get some good city conquest payoffs, for example.
• I like the sound of the WB in Brayaga, but can't see the other cities to check. Remember that we do need to keep producing commerce to keep our science rate as high as possible.

Good luck GB!

 

[greatbeyond]

I'll try to get the plan posted in about 12 hours, Thursday morning here, then play Friday morning.

As for the Great People, My post took into account all the GP we had and what their assignment's were. Unless I've miscounted, we need only the two I mentioned, the GM and GS. The figures I used for the number of turns is based on our current research levels, so it could be a little longer or shorter. By far the two most useful GP will be GEs to rush wonders and GM for the money to keep our research up. We won't need to worry about this during this next TS as our next GP is 7T away, but we should consider it.

I'm in favor of settling the GG unless someone can give a reason for using him to make a Warlord.
Right now our military seems to be spread kind of thin and reinforcements are slow in coming which has me a little concerned. Thankfully we have the most advanced units.
I'll plan for just the 6 turns and see how it works.

Wealth is important and the lack of Gold is hurting us now, but some of the cities set to wealth are only building gold in the single digits. Building pop automatically gets us a little more gold.

Right now SP is keeping us from running unlimited GP but the tradeoff for the lack of a distance penalty seems better. Any thoughts on this? Will Verasilles offset this enough to make it worthwhile to switch from SP?

 

[greatbeyond]

Research - Stay with current path, Radio then MM should take ~7T

Trades - Augustus will trade us Mil Sci, WM, and 180G for Communism. While we don't absolutely need it, Grenadiers will come in handy shortly. The only downside is I don't want this trade to affect a trade for Corp. However, if we plan on getting Corp from Boudica for peace then it probably doesn't matter.

As of the starting turn, I don't see any resource trades other than Augustus will give us Bananas for Sugar.

We can also demand Fish from Gandhi. He has two. I know the last BTS game I played I was worried about the response that says "refusal means war" but I did it many times and never had a vassal DOW for a request, even when I demanded everything they had, even if they only had 1 of it.

Demands - I don't see us giving into any demands, am I wrong?

Great People - I don't foresee using any of them my TS. The next one to pop is 7T. I will try to mm for them in this order; GE, GM, GS, GA. Obviously some cities will be better than others for a specific type.

Great General - We could settle him for the extra 2XP. One other thought I had is to wait one turn when we have 3 Maces there. Attach him to a Mace(after the initial CR2 promos) for an instant upgrade to Rifleman and use the 20XP pts to amongst the three of them. Suggestions for the promos? Give them to the Rifle or spread them?

Cities -

Fifthburg - continues the SOL
Parma - Continues Wealth
Stoneopolis - Continues building Frigates
Engineering - Continues Wealth, we could build a Customs House (1T), Market (1T), Bank (2T), or Courthouse (2T) to increase our gold production. Of course this will only help if we are not running 100% Research.
Marbles - Continues Globe Theatre
Ulundi - Baray 6T with MM
Far Canal - Cavalry
Nobamba - Continues Maces (for eventual upgrade) or Cavalry
Nongoma - Completes Kremlin (3T) then Broadway (20T) we could start Bdway in Evora, it would shave off 1T, but I don't think it's worth it.
Evora - will continue with cavalry
Lisbon - completes FP (6T)
Most other Cities will stay on their current builds except for those that are supposed to be building wealth and are not producing any or very little. I'll try to find something better for them to do. Some should be mm for growth.

War - I'll look at the advice given earlier ( and Balthalion's pretty maps) and try to produce some kind of military success in my TS. Though my first priority is, ".... do no harm"

Let me know what you think.

 

[WastinTime]

Right now SP is keeping us from running unlimited GP but the tradeoff for the lack of a distance penalty seems better. Any thoughts on this? Will Verasilles offset this enough to make it worthwhile to switch from SP?

These are not related. Emanc is keeping us from running Caste. So the question is how much happiness can we afford to lose. We only need to give up SP/distance penalty if/when we want corporations.

 

[WastinTime]

I think a warlord is a good idea for the GG. It saves us around 400 gold to promote the unit to Rifle, then Infantry. And like you said, give the 20 exp to a few maces.

 

[WastinTime]

Whatever Engineering does for a couple turns (wealth is fine), realize that when Radio comes in, it needs to start CristoR. We need to start all wonders that become available.

Evora can do a Radio wonder.

 

[BLubmuz]

Agreed to use the GG to give XP to a few (3-4) maces, then upgrade for free.
Mainly since our core (thus better productive) cities will be busy building wonders.

I think it's better wait to complete CR before talk about civic changes.
Aftr it we can even switch, see the changes and in case switch again next turn. For free!!!

 

[berserks01]

Are we sure that giving XP to multiple units with the GG will allow all of them to upgrade for free?

Also, even with CR, I think you have to wait 5 turns between civic changes, no?

 

[WastinTime]

only 1 unit gets free upgrades, but sharing exp is better than all in one unit IMO.

CR is only 1 turn between changes.

 

[MacBalt]

Trades - Augustus will trade us Mil Sci, WM, and 180G for Communism. While we don't absolutely need it, Grenadiers will come in handy shortly. The only downside is I don't want this trade to affect a trade for Corp. However, if we plan on getting Corp from Boudica for peace then it probably doesn't matter.

I'm not sure this is necessary unless we need the gold. We already have some turns of research into Military Science -- enough that we could get it ourselves in only one turn. Probably better just to pick it up ourselves with that kind of investment already sunk into it -- especially considering that JC will probably be our last target. Maybe we should think twice before speeding him along in the technology race?

As of the starting turn, I don't see any resource trades other than Augustus will give us Bananas for Sugar.
We can also demand Fish from Gandhi. He has two. I know the last BTS game I played I was worried about the response that says "refusal means war" but I did it many times and never had a vassal DOW for a request, even when I demanded everything they had, even if they only had 1 of it.

I don't think we're light on health in any city yet. I guess I would take any "easy" trades, but I wouldn't feel the need to "push" any difficult health-based trades.

Great People - I don't foresee using any of them my TS. The next one to pop is 7T. I will try to mm for them in this order; GE, GM, GS, GA. Obviously some cities will be better than others for a specific type.

I would MM for GM first, then GS, then all GEs. I don't think we need any more GAs, do we?

Great General - We could settle him for the extra 2XP. One other thought I had is to wait one turn when we have 3 Maces there. Attach him to a Mace(after the initial CR2 promos) for an instant upgrade to Rifleman and use the 20XP pts to amongst the three of them. Suggestions for the promos? Give them to the Rifle or spread them?

I like this idea too. Good argument for not settling him.

War - I'll look at the advice given earlier ( and Balthalion's pretty maps) and try to produce some kind of military success in my TS. Though my first priority is, ".... do no harm"

Awww... I'm glad you like my pretty maps, but you are right to put safety first. Please don't let them lead you into anything you aren't comfortable with!

One other thing -- If we think we're going to build gold in Engineering ever again then I like the idea of putting a bank there for a mere 2 turn investment. (Only if it won't interfere with the next Wonder we need to start though!)

 

[WastinTime]

I have a couple WB already heading to the whale & fish in our new city.

 

[WastinTime]

One other thing -- If we think we're going to build gold in Engineering ever again then I like the idea of putting a bank there for a mere 2 turn investment. (Only if it won't interfere with the next Wonder we need to start though!)

It took me a while to un-learn this. Your suggestion applies to vanilla Civ, not BTS. I always tried to build research in the captial if anywhere, but in BTS it doesn't matter. The multipliers don't affect wealth/research building. Forge/IW however DOES count in BTS. So building wealth in Engineering is a good idea...where it would have been a bad idea in Vanilla civ....follow me?

 

[Mesix]

I think a warlord is a good idea for the GG. It saves us around 400 gold to promote the unit to Rifle, then Infantry. And like you said, give the 20 exp to a few maces.

If you have him join in a tile with 3 maces and no other units then the exp gained from the GG would be enough to promote all three maces to CR3 before upgrading them to rifelmen.

edit: actually 4 maces with 5 exp each (out the gate with CR2) would split 20 exp (5 each) getting them to the required 10 exp to get CR 3 and not lose any exp after upgrading. Is my math correct?