SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

Absolutely agreed on worker.
He can pasture the cows and mine the gold - in that order.
From my test the city delays its growth by only 1 turn, and this was with the worker in 15, not in 12.
But having the resources improved not only compensates the growth, but boosts the research.

Sweeta, sitting ON the marble makes a crappy city.
Sitting 1S make a decent city, fish are reach in few turns, we're creative, remember.
Yes city 2 have to go for ivory, we''ll study the optimal placement.

WT, i also like to try the CS sling, but i'm afraid is risky on monarch.
If we can manage to arrive around 1300 BC it can be pretty safe, unless we have some industrious civ with marble.

Again, tests are needed.

 

[culdeus]

Right now I am against the CS slingshot and for Mids even without stone. I need to run through a few more tests before I cement this. Still like MC for Oracle.

 

[BLubmuz]

Chronicles of my first test.
Greatbeyond last updated map.
I meet pericles and qin, lost the Oracle to Justinian by 2 turns.
It was built in 950 BC.
The research was just OK, but the building itself took too much.
I has to divert my research to masonry, to benefit of the marble, and tried to settle on it, to save worker turns. Settlin on marble gives +1H, but in the long term is a waste.
This is a rebus, 'coz if settle on the marble we gain the fish, if we settle south we need the fish of the capital.
OTOH, settling south let the fish for a city 1S of the point.

I guess that if we skip Alpha and beeline to math/col and build the Oracle in capital we can do the CS sling.

Second test:
AH
fishing
wheel
wri
myst-Poly-priest-CoL
Math

build:
worker-warrior-WB-WB-library-warrior (to reach s.6)-settler
start a 2nd settler, but switched to Oracle while keeping 1 sci at work
Oracle in 1160 BC, Bureau in 1120 BC

stopped to verify the actual map in 500 BC, with Pyramids in 5 turns.
BTW, self researched Masonry, not easy to trade for it in BtS!
in this attempt my first GS popped in turn 76, in previous one in 66 (i sacrificed some turns for the settler, perhaps not the right choice)
Qin built the GLH

I'm working on a dot map. here is a SS with resources

 

[greatbeyond]

Are there really GHs in the game?? Surely not.

Check out the Tile on Shaka's Island just north of the cows. If that isn't a Goody Hut it must be Santa's house at the North Pole! Hopefully he'll bring us plenty of presents.

 

[Sweetacshon]

The early worker build allowed us to develop both the cows and the gold. Hardly a waste since...

Probably a bad choice of words from me. I was always for worker first, but hate wasted worker turns now that we have him.

I has to divert my research to masonry, to benefit of the marble, and tried to settle on it, to save worker turns. Settlin on marble gives +1H, but in the long term is a waste.
This is a rebus, 'coz if settle on the marble we gain the fish, if we settle south we need the fish of the capital.
OTOH, settling south let the fish for a city 1S of the point.

This is why I settled on marble. Anyway, we'llsee what comes of it when we scout.

Check out the Tile on Shaka's Island just north of the cows. If that isn't a Goody Hut it must be Santa's house at the North Pole! Hopefully he'll bring us plenty of presents.

Is it designed to frustrate us? We'd never be able to reach it first. I wonder if there are more around?

 

[greatbeyond]

The results of my latest test. I was beaten to the GLighthouse. I didn't even try for SH or the GW. Was beaten to THG and ND, I made a few blunders that slowed things down, but overall I was pleased with how things are going. I stopped around T170 because I figured it was time for war. This was probably kind of late, but with the emphasis on wonders the choice had to be made. I ran out of cites to build wonders in and had to pollute with a different kind of GP generator (GE and GP), (GE and GS). I'll attach a screen shot of where I put cities. I think they are the best available spots but let's discuss....

City on other landmass was city #5 and city near Shaka was #6 (GA bombed shortly after building:

Here were my builds/discoveries:

Spoiler :

T1 Settle in Place, Start Worker
T13 AH learned, start Fishing
finish Worker, start Warrior
T16 Pasture completed
T19 Fishing learned, start BW
change from Warrior to Work Boat
T21 Mine completed on Gold
T26 Work Boat completed,moved to Fish, Fishing Boat created
Start WB #2
T27 Mine built 2S
T29 BW finished, start Sailing
T30 WB#2 finished
Barracks begun
T31 Begin Settler (to get Forest Chop)
T32 change back to Barracks
T36 Sailing learned, start The Wheel
WB creates FB on Southern Fish
T37 Finish Settler ( 2 more Forest chop)
T38 Finish Warrior, start Galley
T40 Mine built 1S
Learn The Wheel, start Writing
T41 City #2 founded, start Lighthouse
Worker starts camp on Ivory
T43 Galley finished, Warrior started
T44 finish Warrior, resume Galley
T45 Finish Galley
T46 Begin Worker
T47 Writing finished, start Aesthetics
T48 finish Worker
T49 start Library
T51 start Settler
T52 Worker completes Pasture at City #2
T53 City #2 begins Library
T56 Finish Settler
T57 Finish Library
T58 start Settler
T59 Start Settler
City #3 Founded 1S of Marble
T61 switch to Masonry
City #2 finishes Library
T63 Settler finished
T64 begin Galley in City #1
T65 Masonry learned, resume Aesthetics
get Archery from GH
T66 Settle city #4 1N of Pigs
T170 stop

Wonders built:

T83 Oracle City #2 Take MC
T98 Pyramids City #1
T103 Parthenon City #4
T108 GL City #1
Colossus City #2
T115 Shweagon Paya City #2
T137 MOM City #4
T154 Chichen Itza City #2
T168 Sistine Chapel City #4
T162 Moai Statues City #3

Great Persons

T111 GA born from Drama in City #1
T113 GE in City #1
T128 GM in City #2
T136 GE in City #1
T145 GS in City #4
T162 GA in city #4
T170 GS in city #1

 

[WastinTime]

If we really are on an island then war will come late, maybe not as late as t170 though, but surely after 100. It would be nice to scout another turn or two to find out.

 

[BLubmuz]

(...) It would be nice to scout another turn or two to find out.

I agree.
First on roster is Culdeus, but if you agree i can play 2-3 turns to scout the west. I already have the save.
It's a 5 minutes thing:
- nothing to MM,
- research fishing,
- pasture cows,
- build warrior.
Just to try to figure if we're on a island or not.

Please let me know, i can do it after i gathered consensus.

 

[Sweetacshon]

If we really are on an island then war will come late, maybe not as late as t170 though, but surely after 100. It would be nice to scout another turn or two to find out.

Going minimalist this time, WT? I do agree, though.

 

[BLubmuz]

Waiting for more opinions.
Now, some questions:
1) in BtS slavery brings high chance of revolts and revolting peasants are annoying: i propose to not use it.
2) do we aim for an early GS (around turn 70)?
3) to build an early Academy?

I'll post the decisions on post #3 on first page, after the TS reports. This will be done for all the key decisions we'll take.

My votes on this:
1) no slavery
2) yes
3) yes

 

[WastinTime]

1) We may be able to use some slavery (for example, turn it on with Bureaucracy, and off when we get Heriditary Rule costs no anarchy), but in general, we should try to avoid it. The problem is that city on the marble island might have 2 seafood and could really use some slavery.

2)Yes,
3)Yes

 

[dutchfire]

1) No slavery seems good, slavery is only really good for building units anyway. By the way, please check if other civs are getting slave revolts, if they are, the event is active in the game.

2) Yes
3) Yes

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, i've played few turns, here is the autolog:

Spoiler :

Contact made: Zulu Empire

IBT:

Turn 14/500 (3440 BC) [17-Sep-2008 23:11:04]

IBT:

Turn 15/500 (3400 BC) [17-Sep-2008 23:11:33]

IBT:
Hinduism founded in a distant land

Turn 16/500 (3360 BC) [17-Sep-2008 23:12:15]
A Pasture was built near Fifthburg

We're NOT on a island!

the save
and the updated screenie.
Also a proposal for the first 2 cities placement:
#2 is red, #3 is yellow, marble must wait.

 

[greatbeyond]

1. Slavery can have it's uses, but for the most part we probably won't use it much, as as Dutchfire has pointed out, the random event really screws up your plans. Our BFC also has plenty of production potential that would serve us better than whipping.

2,3 Yes, but... this depends on how much science /turn we are producing and how early we are talking about.. An early GS for an Academy that boosts our research from 10BPT to 15 bpt is not as big a priority as building Population or in this case, production for an early wonder.

I am not the best civ grower but the need for several early cities in which to build wonders has to have a higher precedence- carefully balanced with, the the thirst for knowledge. Remember it is Wonders per turn, not total wonders that counts.

I'm not against some more exploring, and whomever is next could possibly proceed to a point.
I think researching Fishing next, then switching from Warrior build to WB is a no-brainer.
I would research BW next to allow us to chop a Settler out early. Following up the first WB with a 2nd will allow our Capitol to expand rapidly with the two seafood.
Worker actions - Pasture Horses, Mine Gold, Mine 2S until BW is done.

We should stop at this point ( as soon as Settler is done) to evaluate where our second city will be.
The Scout can explore, but i don't think he's going to be exploring much more.

 

[BLubmuz]

I'm not against some more exploring, and whomever is next could possibly proceed to a point.

too late

I think researching Fishing next, then switching from Warrior build to WB is a no-brainer.

no need to do this, the warrior will be ready before fishing, or at the same time.
EDIT: the warrior is due in 4, as the city growth to s.2 - fishing in 3, but for 1 turn i propose to let the warrior complete, then WB-WB.

I would research BW next.

Wait!
If we decide for a MC sling, i agree (but maybe the wheel first, to keep the worker busy and to not waste worker-turns), if we decide for a CS sling, no way, we must go straight there.

I also think that in any case the wheel is needed, so i propose to go for that after fishing.

 

[WastinTime]

That's exactly where I put my cities in my test game, so I agree.

 

[greatbeyond]

If Warrior is done first, that works out good. In some tests, I switched to Barracks because with the landmass we looked like we were on, we had little worry of Barbs appearing. Then when we produced Units they were ready for a promotion.

Worker stay busy building Mines on Gold and hill 2S. When BW is done he chops.

City placement:

City #2 should be 1S of freshwate (5W of the Capitol). This allows it to work Cows (after first expansion) and Ivory, get Freshwater benefit , and no tile overlap with Capitol.

City #3 Should be 1S of where you have it. With a lighthouse it will have plenty of food, and production in the hills.It would only have one tile overlap with the Capitol. I know that gives us two desert tiles ,but it seems to be the best compromise.

 

[BLubmuz]

city placement
and the pigs?
if you build where you propose, a city there have too much overlap.
city 2 should be the red one, you have 2 new resources!
city 3 the yellow one. If you build it 1S, you loose the clams.

I think we can try an aggressive settling 1W or 2N of rice, but it must be well discussed.

 

[WastinTime]

Pig City:

Blub and I suggest a city with 14 hammers (18 with the shared hill.)
Moving 1 south makes it 8 hammers.
(of course that all changes with railroads, workshops, etc, but the basic land is 14 vs. 8)

Rice City/Clam City:

Shaka will settle a rice city, so if you settle 1SW of the lake, you have no food. Clams/cow is the way to go. Plus there's that grass tile in the middle of the jungle. That is probably Horses, copper, iron, etc. We want that in the BFC.

No reason to rush a city over by the rice. It's all jungle and no hills. Rice is only 4 food (non-irrigated). Let Shaka clear it and we'll go after him around t100 or so.

On an unrelated note to the warmongers: Our elephant units require horseback riding.

 

[greatbeyond]

I have considered your points about the city placement and think the decision revolves around what we want. A few cities (from the looks of it) 5 Cities at best and that includes a marginal city on the Marble island and a City to the East of the Capitol.

Red/Blue: in your plan they show 4 tiles overlapping, I think this takes too much away from our capital

Yellow: while this is a good size city, it includes 6 Jungle squares.

If Shaka does build a city, 1W of the rice, there isn't any more room for another city.
Of nearby landmasses, that leaves us with the Marble Island which is not great. It will require the Moai Statues to produce anything of value. The only reason to settle the city was to get Marble.
We could settle a city to the east of our Capitol that will do okay, but will not be great.

Please consider the attached map. They are numbered in the order I thought was best. This allows us several good cities to build wonders in. Check out my post#126 to see what I was able to build. Let's critique these different plans and see what we come up with. I'll try a test game using your suggestion.

I will modify my testgame to reflect the new info we know,. I don't know if i'll get it posted tonight.