SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

OK, let's continue the tradition

I'll move the scout on what should be a point, just to see if there's another landmass or a island over there.
I vote for settle in place, almost any other tile looses the gold.
A pityful city can in case be placed on the point (if it is), but it should be our 6th or 7th.
I guess city 2 or 3 can be settled in the island, right S of marble, and it can be a decent city, working marble and seafood.

Now we must find consensus on first research/first build.
I vote for fishing/warrior>WB.

 

[Mesix]

Starting techs are Hunting and Mining.

I think that we need to start working that Gold as soon as possible. A work boat would be nice to get the fish, but the cows would give just as much food. If we build a worker to mine the gold, he can also build a pasture on the cows. Since we start with Hunting, we can research Animal Hunbandry right away.

I vote to build a worker first and research Animal Husbandry.

 

[greatbeyond]

Whoa, slow down......
There is still plenty of room for testing the various starts. So far it appears there are only two candidates for settling; in place and 1SW, does anyone have any other ideas?

My only reason to move 1SW is to pick up the Marble. As soon as we get Sailing, Masonry, and The Wheel, we can work the Marble and use it to speed the early wonders. See the BOTM10 discussion for a discussion of a similar "offshore" stone. The island the Marble is on is only 2 tiles and by itself, unless there are hidden ocean resources, it would be a crappy city location.

I am not sold yet on Fishing as the first tech. How about we each conduct tests on which is the fastest path to city growth. Do we go for 2 or 3 quick cities or just try and grow our capitol to size 6 and get two quick wonders?

Suggested test starts:

Settler first or Worker (one of each) First with Tech(s) to be decided, perhaps one with Fishing, one with BW, any others?

Warrior, Workboat - Starting Tech of Fishing then BW or AH?

We need to decide if growth/rapid expansion is more desirable than growing a single city. We won't know for sure the size of our land mass (is it an island?) for another 3 or 4 turns. In our last OCC SGOTM we got most of the wonders because we could build them all in our capitol. That won't be the case this time around.

I can modify my original test or create a new one to reflect the new info we have. If I had to guess, I would say we are on an island in the "islands" area of the "Big and Small" map. But I have been know to be wrong most of the time when trying to figure out what the game designer has created for us.

I will work on some tests this afternoon and try to post by Saturday afternoon/evening. I'll keep watch of this thread for ideas.

 

[culdeus]

I assume you mean SE. I'm willing to test this theory a bit. It's a major risk to SIP now that it looks like we are cutoff to at least one side with no hope of a decent city that way. With these SGs it's always better to assume something tricky has been done to the map and not that it will be laid out like a typical monarch game with typical monarch densities of resources.

 

[Merum]

I'm here, somewhere. Busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest right now, so put me at the end of the list. There was a post made someplace with some excellent wonder-spam advice with conquest victory (which I feel is the optimal strategy), I'm going to look for it.

Just as a short blurb, I think we need to try to get two wonder cities up and running ASAP while a third city builds military. The first city should focus on priest/engineer inducing wonders (with the exception of the wall, which is very important in a wonder spam to keep the barbs out, while all the wonders that would pollute that pool go to the second city. Settled priests are awesome for hammers and gold, not to mention the fact that they can build shrines, which brings me to religion. We should try to found as many as we realistically can, and take holy cities when possible. More later.

 

[Mesix]

I think that it might be a good idea to let the city grow a bit after we build a worker. We should build a warrior for a minimal defense and to keep the plebs happy. If we research fishing and build a work boat we can also work one of the sea resources.

Tech path Animal Husbandry and then Fishing.

Build path worker, warrior, work boat, settler.

By letting the city grow a bit more tiles will be worked, the settler will finish faster, and we will also get a research boost from working the gold mine.

Order of tiles to work cows, gold, and then sea food.

I'm in favor of settling in place, but I will settle where ever the group decides is best. Both the starting spot and the tile 1SE give access to both sea food resources as well as the cows and gold. Moving 1SE will delay 1 turn and also has the potential to cutoff access to additional resources that may be in the fog to the west, but it will eventually give access to marble. It will require Sailing technology and a galley to reach the marble so it will be a little while before we can work it anyway.

 

[BLubmuz]

First off, i think that some tests with the test game for a very early strategy are mandatory.

Let's resume the options:
1) Fishing>AH /Warrior>WB>worker
2) AH>Fishing / Worker>warrior>WB

Settle in place, 1SW looses the gold and even if this creates room for a decent city, i'd like to have the gold on capital.
The overseas marble is too risky, if an AI manage to settle a city on the island. I propose to settle city 3 there, and it's not so crappy, with marble and a seafood. In case we can build there the Moai Statues, and it became a decent city.

OK, now a quick test and i'll back with some answer.

PS: OK Merum, i suppose you are not so free to play, but your contribution can be precious anyway.

 

[Merum]

I'll be around to play when my turns come up, but definitely not this week. Things will settle down a bit after that.

 

[WastinTime]

I like worker, warrior, wb, settler, settler.

Moving 1SE (to the marble) loses fresh water, so no on that.

If our island is small enough then we won't need Great Wall for barbs, right? I don't play a lot of barb games. I'd rather not pollute our GP pool with the spy points. I'm hoping for no wall.

I'd like to have 3 cities. #2 for Oracle/Prophets, #3 for Pyramids/GE. It's best if those are not the capitol. I like the capitol to focus on research, not running priests, merchants, or engineers. A 4th city should probably be GreatLighthouse/GM. This maps looks like TGL might pay off.

Then we stop building wonders and go military? The capitol can build military while the wonders are coming out. Hopefully we find a close neighbor for some free cities.

We'll be sailing a workboat around the tip soon, so we wouldn't have to scout it, but there's probably not much else to scout. I'm ok with whatever the current player wants.

 

[greatbeyond]

Merum, you sparked my thought process. If we are on a rather small island, we won't need the GW for defense and one or 2 Warriors could suffice for fog busting, a small enough island and we won't even need one Warrior after the first cultural expansion. If that is the case we can always get the GW when we conquer another Civ.

Some more thoughts have struck me about Wonders and they may be a bit simplistic, but stick with me. Let's figure out what wonders we want for ourselves and what ones we we'll let the AI build. I think wonders we build ourselves will have the greatest influence on score as they will help us achieve greater growth/science/GP allowing us to win earlier. If we are on an island area, it will be awhile before we can conquer anyone. We should also pay attention to which Civs get the Wonders and target them first.

Wonders we should build ourselves? Do we base these on what is best for the strategy we choose or just what is quickest as they are the same value for victory purposes. This is just a start, add to it.

Colossus - this will come a bit later but the Gold income will really help us.
Pyramids - This would be one of our first wonders
Oracle - we should start this as soon as we learn PH, even if we hold off completing, so as to time a slingshot.

We can designate at least three cities for the landmass we are on, based on what we can see. Each city can have 2 WW and 2 NW, we should plan out what they will be. I have attached a Grid below. My initial thoughts are:
City #1 , E5 - both Clams and Fish, Gold, Cows, and Marble
City #2 or #3, F2 - would be a little close but would be able to share the Clams and Gold, and Cows. Unless there are more ocean resources to the NE, it will need the Clams/Cows for growth.
City #3 or #2 (depends on what is revealed) A5 or A1

Blubmuz, perhaps we should have a few more reserved posts at the beginning to keep our different priorities/strategies where they are easy to find.

Starting area Grid for reference ( no it wasn't done by a 4 yr old)

 

[BLubmuz]

(...)
- City #1 , E5 - both Clams and Fish, Gold, Cows, and Marble - no we loose fresh water, and the marble is too complicated: better settle on the island
- City #2 or #3, F2 - would be a little close but would be able to share the Clams and Gold, and Cows. Unless there are more ocean resources to the NE, it will need the Clams/Cows for growth. - due to the above, let's wait
- City #3 or #2 (depends on what is revealed) A5 or A1 - - ditto

Blubmuz, perhaps we should have a few more reserved posts at the beginning to keep our different priorities/strategies where they are easy to find. - too late, but i can use the #2 for this

Just some answer, now lemme do that test.

 

[WastinTime]

We might race to Biology (maybe even Sid's Sushi?). Too soon to dicuss that, but I think it means Colossus will be almost obsolete by the time we can build it. Maybe not though if we go for forges early. I know that Statue of Liberty is a nice boost on these games with high cities counts. So maybe we'd go for Democracy...
I'm rambling a bit, sorry...

 

[dutchfire]

@Blub: Be sure not to include me in the roster, as I won't be able to play much. A lot of my sparce computer time is at the university, where I don't have civ.

 

[Mesix]

I like worker, warrior, wb, settler, settler.

Moving 1SE (to the marble) loses fresh water, so no on that.

If our island is small enough then we won't need Great Wall for barbs, right? I don't play a lot of barb games. I'd rather not pollute our GP pool with the spy points. I'm hoping for no wall.

I'd like to have 3 cities. #2 for Oracle/Prophets, #3 for Pyramids/GE. It's best if those are not the capitol. I like the capitol to focus on research, not running priests, merchants, or engineers. A 4th city should probably be GreatLighthouse/GM. This maps looks like TGL might pay off.

Then we stop building wonders and go military? The capitol can build military while the wonders are coming out. Hopefully we find a close neighbor for some free cities.

We'll be sailing a workboat around the tip soon, so we wouldn't have to scout it, but there's probably not much else to scout. I'm ok with whatever the current player wants.

I like this strategy. The only thig that I would add is to build the Great Library in the Capitol. If that is our research center it will pay dividends very quickly. If we link up the marble before getting to Literature, the build time should be relatively short.

 

[dutchfire]

Really, if you want to do a long game, getting most of the early game wonders is marginal to getting to the later techs earlier.

 

[BLubmuz]

Played until turn 28/500, settled in place
first test with warrior first, switched to WB, finish warrior, then worker

Spoiler :

Yasodharapura founded
Yasodharapura begins: Warrior (15 turns)
Research begun: Fishing (6 Turns)
Yasodharapura's borders expand
Tech learned: Fishing
Research begun: Animal Husbandry (13 Turns)
Yasodharapura begins: Work Boat (30 turns)
Yasodharapura grows: 2
Buddhism founded in a distant land
Yasodharapura finishes: Work Boat
A Fishing Boats was built near Yasodharapura
Hinduism founded in a distant land
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry
Contact made: Byzantine Empire
Research begun: Writing (12 Turns)
Yasodharapura grows: 3
Yasodharapura finishes: Warrior
Yasodharapura begins: Worker (9 turns)
Yasodharapura's borders expand
Yasodharapura finishes: Worker
Yasodharapura begins: Work Boat (6 turns)

Test2: worker first: gold and cows are improved (but not connected, we don't know the wheel) by turn 28 and the growth to 3 is delayed on turn 29

Spoiler :

Yasodharapura founded
Yasodharapura begins: Worker (15 turns)
Research begun: Animal Husbandry (13 Turns)

IBT:

Turn 1/500 (3960 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:13:20]

IBT:

Turn 2/500 (3920 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:13:25]
Yasodharapura's borders expand

IBT:

Turn 3/500 (3880 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:13:32]

IBT:

Turn 4/500 (3840 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:13:37]

IBT:

Turn 5/500 (3800 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:13:44]

IBT:

Turn 6/500 (3760 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:13:50]

IBT:

Turn 7/500 (3720 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:13:53]

IBT:
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 8/500 (3680 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:13:58]

IBT:

Turn 9/500 (3640 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:14:01]

IBT:

Turn 10/500 (3600 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:14:06]

IBT:

Turn 11/500 (3560 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:14:11]

IBT:

Turn 12/500 (3520 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:14:17]
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry

IBT:

Turn 13/500 (3480 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:14:22]
Research begun: Fishing (6 Turns)

IBT:

Turn 14/500 (3440 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:14:36]
Yasodharapura finishes: Worker

IBT:

Turn 15/500 (3400 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:14:40]
Yasodharapura begins: Warrior (15 turns)

IBT:

Turn 16/500 (3360 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:14:56]

IBT:

Turn 17/500 (3320 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:15:00]

IBT:

Turn 18/500 (3280 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:15:05]
A Pasture was built near Yasodharapura
Tech learned: Fishing

IBT:
Hinduism founded in a distant land

Turn 19/500 (3240 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:15:15]
Research begun: Writing (15 Turns)

Turn 21/500 (3160 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:15:36]
Yasodharapura grows: 2
Yasodharapura finishes: Warrior

Turn 22/500 (3120 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:15:41]
Yasodharapura begins: Work Boat (10 turns)

Turn 23/500 (3080 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:15:57]
A Mine was built near Yasodharapura

Turn 24/500 (3040 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:16:01]
Yasodharapura's borders expand

Turn 28/500 (2880 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:16:32]

I guess worker first is better, first research AH
For next TS we must decide if go for the wheel or for writing.
We can grow to 5 without gold connected.

 

[WastinTime]

Really, if you want to do a long game, getting most of the early game wonders is marginal to getting to the later techs earlier.

Right. We only need to get early wonders that help us tech faster or give us the GMen we want, not just to get wonders.

@Mesix: You're probably right about the GLib, but I'm a little worried it will give us too many GS. We'll have to get one early GS for the academy, then we get one free at physics.

 

[WastinTime]

We can grow to 5 without gold connected.

5 is good. We can work Clams, Cow, Gold, Scientist, Scientist until the academy pops out. I think we'll need writing for the library/scientists. We won't grow to 6 very soon anyway with all the settlers/workers we'll need to build.

 

[Mesix]

Played until turn 28/500, settled in place
first test with warrior first, switched to WB, finish warrior, then worker

Spoiler :

Yasodharapura founded
Yasodharapura begins: Warrior (15 turns)
Research begun: Fishing (6 Turns)
Yasodharapura's borders expand
Tech learned: Fishing
Research begun: Animal Husbandry (13 Turns)
Yasodharapura begins: Work Boat (30 turns)
Yasodharapura grows: 2
Buddhism founded in a distant land
Yasodharapura finishes: Work Boat
A Fishing Boats was built near Yasodharapura
Hinduism founded in a distant land
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry
Contact made: Byzantine Empire
Research begun: Writing (12 Turns)
Yasodharapura grows: 3
Yasodharapura finishes: Warrior
Yasodharapura begins: Worker (9 turns)
Yasodharapura's borders expand
Yasodharapura finishes: Worker
Yasodharapura begins: Work Boat (6 turns)

Test2: worker first: gold and cows are improved (but not connected, we don't know the wheel) by turn 28 and the growth to 3 is delayed on turn 29

Spoiler :

Yasodharapura founded
Yasodharapura begins: Worker (15 turns)
Research begun: Animal Husbandry (13 Turns)

IBT:

Turn 1/500 (3960 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:13:20]

IBT:

Turn 2/500 (3920 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:13:25]
Yasodharapura's borders expand

IBT:

Turn 3/500 (3880 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:13:32]

IBT:

Turn 4/500 (3840 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:13:37]

IBT:

Turn 5/500 (3800 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:13:44]

IBT:

Turn 6/500 (3760 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:13:50]

IBT:

Turn 7/500 (3720 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:13:53]

IBT:
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 8/500 (3680 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:13:58]

IBT:

Turn 9/500 (3640 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:14:01]

IBT:

Turn 10/500 (3600 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:14:06]

IBT:

Turn 11/500 (3560 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:14:11]

IBT:

Turn 12/500 (3520 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:14:17]
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry

IBT:

Turn 13/500 (3480 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:14:22]
Research begun: Fishing (6 Turns)

IBT:

Turn 14/500 (3440 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:14:36]
Yasodharapura finishes: Worker

IBT:

Turn 15/500 (3400 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:14:40]
Yasodharapura begins: Warrior (15 turns)

IBT:

Turn 16/500 (3360 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:14:56]

IBT:

Turn 17/500 (3320 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:15:00]

IBT:

Turn 18/500 (3280 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:15:05]
A Pasture was built near Yasodharapura
Tech learned: Fishing

IBT:
Hinduism founded in a distant land

Turn 19/500 (3240 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:15:15]
Research begun: Writing (15 Turns)

Turn 21/500 (3160 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:15:36]
Yasodharapura grows: 2
Yasodharapura finishes: Warrior

Turn 22/500 (3120 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:15:41]
Yasodharapura begins: Work Boat (10 turns)

Turn 23/500 (3080 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:15:57]
A Mine was built near Yasodharapura

Turn 24/500 (3040 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:16:01]
Yasodharapura's borders expand

Turn 28/500 (2880 BC) [12-Sep-2008 21:16:32]

I guess worker first is better, first research AH
For next TS we must decide if go for the wheel or for writing.
We can grow to 5 without gold connected.

I tried a couple of test games. I'm not sure how to extract the log files, but here is a synopsis. I played 30 turns of each.

Teching Fishing>AH>Writing and building WB (starting a worker and switching to WB after Fishing is researched)>Warrior>Worker>Settler on the first game. City is size 3. Clams are improved. Worker was finished on turn 29 and started to improve cows. Settler has just started being built. There is one turn left to research writing.

Teching AH>Fishing>Writing>Alphabet and Building Worker>Warrior>Work Boat>Settler on the second game. City is size 2. Cows, Gold and Clams are all improved. Writing is finished and Alphabet (or another tech) has started. Settler is 1/2 finished with 10 turns left. If a second warrior (or WB) is built before the settler then the city will grow to size 3 and be 1/2 way to size 4 by turn 30.

Here are the two save games.

 

[Merum]

Just to toss out some of my random thoughts to stimulate discussion:

A metal casting slingshot with the oracle seems like a no-brainer.
We should try to grab an early religion for a shrine
At some point game length will lead to diminishing returns, need to find the tipping point.
Mysticism(Stonehenge) and then a religion are the obvious first resource choices, then masonry.
Conquest is the obvious victory choice, keep our rivals weak and low in cities so that we can choose exactly when to end the game
Iron working is important to both a MC slingshot and a conquest strategy.
Building our own wonders is preferable to allowing AIs to build them. I'd rather take extra cities to build them in than screw around with that.
Biology is probably a much longer game than we want to play.
We should run some numbers around a 150-200 turn game and see how many wonders can be jammed in that space of time.

More thoughts as they come in...