SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

BLubmuz · Oct 6, 2008

@ Balth
OK, i'll put you in bench.

But try to be ready to fight soon, your contribution in the precedent game was precious.

@ Sweeta
I think you can play until (hopefully) you'll perform your perfect CS sling.
This will be your prize for that free religion thing

Don't forget to build the Academy right after the GS will pop.

I don't remember how many turns are needed for CoL, but if you can manage to complete before settle the marble - on the marble - we're 100% sure Parma will be the holy city. (to rename it just enter the city screen and double click the city's name)

Last thing: don't switch civics, just save right after the Oracle will be complete.
There's a slavery party somewhere, i hope we'll decide for caste, but better discuss and in case vote.

I'd like to see if there's some resource in the islands south.
We can wait to explore East until Carrara (marble city) will expand its borders.

culdeus · Oct 6, 2008

Sweetacshon said:
OK, I've had a look at the save. It seems to me we can have math and the oracle appear on turn 75. By the looks of things, we might be able to get CoL a turn earlier by going to 100% for a turn, but I'm not sure if that will save a turn on maths. This all hinges on settling on the marble, and mining a second grass hill.

I can play whenever the team says go, but will leave at least 24 hrs for anyone to shoot holes in the plan.

Plan:

Cities
Fifth - settler > warrior > worker > warior > settler (max sci. after turn 63)
Parma - oracle (work pigs > gh, pigs > 2 x gh, pigs)

Units
Scout - continues exploration
wb - heads north
galley - transports, then heads east
settler - on marble (will pause TS if extra seafood)

Diplomacy
none planned
See the attachment for more detail. Do you want me to play til 75?

I wouldn't pause the TS unless you see seafood that would fall out of the BFC for the "on marble" plan. Now I wonder if landing the settler will actually give visibility to all the tiles SE of the island. It probably wont as the marble is not on a hill. Maybe enough movement in the galley to swing that way. eta: actually landing the settler 1S of marble will do the trick as he will have 0MP anyway and can move and settle in the next turn.

And you know what I might argue for a scout instead of the warrior. The galley has not yet set sail to the south and east and there are certain to be some huts out there. Might as well give a good chance of getting some cash to make the random events that pop up in the 500BC and on timeframe worth something.

What are your plans for the worker and the missionary. Should the missionary join the galley for a boat ride? I think the scout is free and clear of any barb hindrance now and can be left to his own devices.

BLubmuz · Oct 6, 2008

@ Culdeus and all
a seafood south of the marble island changes nothing:
i think that settle a city to grab the fish NE of marble is useless if not counterproductive.

Thus, in any case one seafood will be lost.
But settle on the marble will speed up the Oracle.

Now, please imagine a city to grab that NE fish: lots of sea and 3 grassland (to clean from jungle).
Or you think to use the gold hill?

WastinTime · Oct 6, 2008

Sweeta, If you can get CoL 1 turn early do that! Like Blub said, the marble city should not be settled until after CoL.

You should get math t73 or 74. Here's how you get the Oracle t73 or 74 also (instead of delaying it to 75)....
Work the Pig when the pasture completes. Go immediately to the Plains/hill (not the grass hill) and finish the mine that was so wisely started by berserks. Then when marble is in, you can work the PH/mine and GH/mine NO pig! (and starve a little) Note: you are at size 2 with some food stored up, but you can't wait to grow to size 3, slowly starve (but don't drop to size 1 of course). Oracle comes faster.

Sweetacshon · Oct 6, 2008

culdeus said:
I wouldn't pause the TS unless you see seafood that would fall out of the BFC for the "on marble" plan. .... eta: actually landing the settler 1S of marble will do the trick as he will have 0MP anyway and can move and settle in the next turn.
That was the idea, but now we're waiting until CoL anyway, so is a moot point.

And you know what I might argue for a scout instead of the warrior. The galley has not yet set sail to the south and east and there are certain to be some huts out there. Might as well give a good chance of getting some cash to make the random events that pop up in the 500BC and on timeframe worth something.
That's a good idea, but I think each city should have at least one defender.

What are your plans for the worker and the missionary. Should the missionary join the galley for a boat ride? I think the scout is free and clear of any barb hindrance now and can be left to his own devices.

Now that I've thought about it further, the second worker is a little premature - No MC for the island workshop, and no BW for chopping... so maybe it will go in the list after the settler now.

WastinTime said:
Sweeta, If you can get CoL 1 turn early do that! Like Blub said, the marble city should not be settled until after CoL.

You should get math t73 or 74. Here's how you get the Oracle t73 or 74 also (instead of delaying it to 75)....
Work the Pig when the pasture completes. Go immediately to the Plains/hill (not the grass hill) and finish the mine that was so wisely started by berserks. Then when marble is in, you can work the PH/mine and GH/mine NO pig! (and starve a little) Note: you are at size 2 with some food stored up, but you can't wait to grow to size 3, slowly starve (but don't drop to size 1 of course). Oracle comes faster.

Yep, good call.. I missed the pre-mine. In future, can players please leave a sign ingame for things like this? I'll rejig the numbers and see how it plays out. Of course delaying marble city will also come into the equation.

I'll leave the TS for another 5 or 6 hours yet for further comment.

culdeus · Oct 6, 2008

I guess I can't get any love for another scout. Love scouts in BTS. Never investigated the "scouts pop better huts" in the code, but in practice it works really well. We'll easily be able to scoop 2-3 huts with the galley-scout combo. Worth considering.

Sweetacshon · Oct 6, 2008

Yeah, I like the idea, but definitely warrior first. The galley can do a little exploring on its own first and circle back to pick up a scout later, imo.

BLubmuz · Oct 7, 2008

Sweeta, please read carefully my # 341 and 343 in this page.

Then go to play and post, i'm darn curious to see if we succeed or not

culdeus · Oct 7, 2008

BLubmuz said:
Sweeta, please read carefully my # 341 and 343 in this page.

Then go to play and post, i'm darn curious to see if we succeed or not

I'm not that worried. I probably tested 30 variants of the slingshot. Sometimes the stuff I'd try would fail miserably and still well past t80 in the tests with all industrious leaders no Oracle from the AI. I never edited in marble in each of the AI, but that's maybe what it would take. Marble for every industrial AI. And it's fairly obvious that the AI is pretty squished together as we've only found 2 at this point. Squished together AI is unlikely to build wonders.

Sweetacshon · Oct 7, 2008

the save

I finally got to sit down with a cuppa and a couple of Timtams and press enter a few times, and everything went according to plan.

Parma is the Confucian holy city, and in fact we got lucky and it spread to the capital. The missionary is in Zulu, but has not yet been used. The oracle and CS came in on turn 74, where I stopped with nothing into alphabet and a temple in Parma. Marbles was settled as planned, and is working on Moai. Obviously it could use a lighthouse, etc, but the hammers into Moai won't go astray. The GS was spent on an academy, and on such things, someone popped a GP and built the Kashi - presumably the builder of stonehenge. So who knows the identity of the owner of these 2 wonders built by turn 63 on Monarch?

The galley circumnavigated the southern island and found a hut, which is great because the new scout is ready to board to pop it. The far scout is in Joaoville... which is a fair way away. Do we want to make him confucian?

So where to now? The immediate question is alphabet (10ish) or self research BW (4ish). After the settler for the cow spot, do we settle on the southern island (stone) or gear up for Shaka?

Photobucket is not being nice, so the log will go in the next post.

Sweetacshon · Oct 7, 2008

....and now the detail:

Spoiler turnset :

BLubmuz · Oct 7, 2008

Great, Sweeta :goodjob:

All our efforts were successful.

Now it's time to stop and to draw a strategy for the mid game.

And you forgot to mention there's stone in that island!!!

We need the settler for the planned city 4, but we need also a settler for the stone.

I would prioritize the closer city to avoid Shaka settle around, but i can discuss this.

I think Alpha is fine, we can trade for BW.

We have to decide for caste or slavery:
since we cannot revolt to slavery, i propose to revolt to Bureau and Caste in the same turn (only 1 turn), then discuss later about slavery.

culdeus · Oct 7, 2008

BLubmuz said:
Great, Sweeta
All our efforts were successful.

Now it's time to stop and to draw a strategy for the mid game.

And you forgot to mention there's stone in that island!!!

We need the settler for the planned city 4, but we need also a settler for the stone.

I would prioritize the closer city to avoid Shaka settle around, but i can discuss this.

I think Alpha is fine, we can trade for BW.

We have to decide for caste or slavery:
since we cannot revolt to slavery, i propose to revolt to Bureau and Caste in the same turn (only 1 turn), then discuss later about slavery.

Very nicely done indeed. Where is the hut? I don't see it on the maps. I'll look at the save later, but is there a land bridge around the stone island? Pretty horrid island to settle on. I guess get sheep/stone/whale and maybe there is a resource in the fog in the middle of the right side of it.

I'm stunned we only have found 2AI. The other ones must practically be on top of eachother. This begs a few questions to discuss later.

I'm not good at trading strategy. I've had very low success getting monarch AI to move along well as a trading partner. In tests I've found shaka to not even have writing when I have alpha and is very resistant to trading and is very slow to tech.

I'm hoping WT and others chime in on how we will manage it. I'm happy we have those islands scouted. One of them is likely the bronze island and will make our 5th city.

I think we are settled on the 4th city site. Need to determine slavery vs. caste then? With that 3rd seafood the marble city is going to grow like a weed once all the fish are in. I have in tests whipped trieremes (spelling) there amongst other boats while running max scientists. The barb galleys come fast and loose pretty soon and our resources need defending.

I'm willing to put it off till we see if we can pop some gold in huts. If we have enough gold then we can run slavery and buy off the peasant revolts though I'm willing to go either way. It's just without slavery that 3rd city is beyond worthless.

berserks01 · Oct 7, 2008

Did anyone also notice that the hidden fish on marble island is actual also in it's BFC with the other 2 fishies? Perfect GP Farm there.

BLubmuz · Oct 7, 2008

berserks01 said:
Did anyone also notice that the hidden fish on marble island is actual also in it's BFC with the other 2 fishies? Perfect GP Farm there.

noticed, noticed... but only with Caste

I managed to build the Colossus in that island in one of my tests... with Caste.

culdeus · Oct 7, 2008

BLubmuz said:
noticed, noticed... but only with Caste
I managed to build the Colossus in that island in one of my tests... with Caste.

If you want to run caste badly. Lets do it and don't look back. It's certainly less MM than slavery and doesn't have the bad effects in BTS like slavery.

WastinTime · Oct 7, 2008

Well caste is easy to choose for now (free w/ bureau). Once we chop out the GLH and Pyramids, we'll want to go Representation...and probably slavery at that time.

I don't think barbs come out of the ocean, so we may be protected on the east. I guess one could come out of the north? I don't really know barbs well.

WastinTime · Oct 7, 2008

The capitol should work the fish while building the settler. Marbles won't have trouble growing.

Sweetacshon · Oct 7, 2008

True... the second fish only came online last turn.

The GH is in the plains forest near the small river on the stone island.

I forgot to check whether Shaka and Joao are running slavery... surely they have BW?! I'm just worried that we'll wait the 10ish turns til alpha and then find we'll have trouble trading with just 2 AI. Considering there doesn't seem any way to get through to the east (but hopefully there is more to find in the west) should we prioritise optics?

I have no doubt that slavery would be very beneficial for Marbles, but bigger picture, it's another turn of anarchy, although there is rep (hopefully) on the horizon, and will we want more anarchy by going confucian? Personaly, in tests I didn't have many problems with slave revolts, and this is especially true if we keep 30 odd gold around.

So for the next turnset:

Alpha or self research BW?
Where do we send the missionary?
After the settler in the capital, what to build?
How soon do we settle the stone?
Caste or Slavery?

Mesix · Oct 8, 2008

Sweetacshon said:
So for the next turnset:

Alpha or self research BW?

Where do we send the missionary?

After the settler in the capital, what to build?

How soon do we settle the stone?

Caste or Slavery?

Nice job getting the Oracle in on time. Now we have to decide on what our priorities will be for the midgame.

Alphabet so that we can trade.
To Joao. He is more likely to trade than Shaka.
Pyramids. We need to get mids, HG, and HS along with a forge to run an engineer.
ASAP to get the bonus for the Pyraids. It won't matter much after that.
Caste System of course.

That is my opinion anyway.

SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

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Attachments

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