SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

[MacBalt]

Marbles - forge, lh, harbour

Shouldn't a granary be in there somewhere -- preferably right before Astro & happy trades?

Currently we have Mesix and culdeus for continuing the war, and WT and Blubmuz for peace. gb and berserks, perhaps I missed your opinions. I think the idea that speeding up astro to help the economy is a good one, and so am for peace, but it would not take much to finish Shaka, imo. However, will 10 turns help him organise a good defence? I think not. It will certainly help us - 1. Concentrate on astro. 2. Get some cats in stacks. Also he won't know anyone OS (have to check this), so there should be no diplo issues, except Joao, who will be dead soon anyway.

I'm on the peacewagon. Shaka is done -- no threat there going forward. Finish him off later to give some of our new troops a little experience bump.

trades: Trades for feudalism are CS+65, mach+150, compass+CoL+155. We could put a turn or 2 into it to reduce the cash component? I notice our trade routes with Joao are non existant due to the lack of 1 road to the SW of Ulundi. This will be rectified May as well.
I still am for trading to increase world tech pace, but we can hold off trades for the moment, in case we decide to attack Gandhi first. In any case feudalism is not a priority, and other AI should get it soon enough.. Trade for happy resources.

What is our long-range tech plan? It doesn't look like the AI are anywhere close on tech. Why bother with Feudalism at all? Even waiting for it to trade we ought to be able to beat the AI to guilds/banking/economics. What do we hope to pull from Liberalism? Scientific Method? Physics? Seems a waste to burn it on Communism. Might be a hoot to try to shoot for Electricity or Radio though.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Shouldn't a granary be in there somewhere -- preferably right before Astro & happy trades?
Right. Forge to be whipped, lh, granary, and harbour to go in. We'll want harbour by astro, leaving 6 turns to do the other 2. I'll decide ingame which to do first based on food overflow, etc.

I'm on the peacewagon. Shaka is done -- no threat there going forward. Finish him off later to give some of our new troops a little experience bump.
That's a majority for peace, iirc. We can let Shaka off the hook for 10 or so.

What is our long-range tech plan? It doesn't look like the AI are anywhere close on tech. Why bother with Feudalism at all? Even waiting for it to trade we ought to be able to beat the AI to guilds/banking/economics. What do we hope to pull from Liberalism? Scientific Method? Physics? Seems a waste to burn it on Communism. Might be a hoot to try to shoot for Electricity or Radio though.

Communism was to run state property, assuming we have a sprawling empire at that point. We've got some time to see how the economy is going, and what we can best get out of lib.

 

[WastinTime]

Right Sweeta, State Prop will be a bomb. That's why we really don't need courthouses.

No Barays.
No coloseums.
No temples.
Parma should have the market, Not Eng.
Eng can produce the cats. Not monastery, etc.
Since your turn ends at Astronomy (most likely), hold off on resource trades with the mainland. We can discuss betweeen TS's. You can check for Joao trades every turn though. It'd be nice to have 1 happy resource to carry us to Astron.

A couple missionaries out of the capitol was a good idea Sweeta.

 

[berserks01]

If I remember correctly, there are a few (2~3) maces on their way back to Ulundi. They are probably good enough to take Shaka's city down south, while the main stack can easily take Shaka's copper and the 3rd city west of it.

This means that Sweet's TS should see the end of Shaka if we follow through. That is if we decide to finish him off for good. Up to the team, I'm ok with finishing him off or getting peace.

 

[berserks01]

Hmmm... I don't understand this. We've got one great medic. Do we really need to burn another Great General on this? And why shouldn't the capital be a military production city? I'd really prefer to settle that GG (but only if we know we'll be using his city for producing military units -- obviously ).

Let's hold off on our GG. We're not likely to build any military units in the near future so we can put him to sleep for a bit.

When we go to war of the other continent, it would be a good idea to send 2 stacks instead of one. Quicker conqest and AIs are terrible at defense when attacked from multiple directions. Then it makes sense to save him for a second medic.

We can decide what to do with him when we're ready for war preps.

 

[BLubmuz]

Let's be accurate about Shaka: raze copper city, peace for HBR + 1 city +WM, then finish him after 10 turns.
Another medic 3 from the GG? i'm in favor of a military instructor, one M3 is enough, usually.

WT, SP eliminate only the distance from palace, not number of cities costs, nor corporations costs.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Righto, well it is midnight, and I have run out of time doing a job application, so no time tonight. Give it another 24 hrs, then. It'll give you more time to discuss the merits of killing Shaka now.

 

[culdeus]

Let's hold off on our GG. We're not likely to build any military units in the near future so we can put him to sleep for a bit.

When we go to war of the other continent, it would be a good idea to send 2 stacks instead of one. Quicker conqest and AIs are terrible at defense when attacked from multiple directions. Then it makes sense to save him for a second medic.

We can decide what to do with him when we're ready for war preps.

Looks to me like the island is divided up like a pizza. There won't be really a second direction to attack from initially except if we want to land a smaller stack at the Labore end of the island. There's nothing strategic about that except it puts us in a better position earlier to go for rome which isn't on the water. The cultural % will be out of control though for all ghandi's cities and will need an obscene number of cats.

I'm fine with 10 turns of peace with S for HBR as long as he's dead in 13 turns. Rolling to the next island with a good mix of knights and cats with some CR3 maces/grens will be deadly.

 

[WastinTime]

GG: Since this is normal speed, I agree 2 stacks in the late game is a good idea. So how about our 3rd GG becomes a super medic. The current GG can be an instructor, but not in the capitol. He should be used immediately, not put to sleep, for the cats. Cats with 5 exp are much better than 3 exp. (extra Bombard). That's how I use cats anyway. Someone once mentioned using huge stacks of cats as disposable units, but I don't see why we'd want to lose any units (except an occasional bad RNG roll.)

So, which city will put out most of our military (and heroic epic). I think Nobamba could do it. It needs a few turns to get up to speed, but should be a good choice. We don't need the cats for Joao anyway. He doesn't have many hill-cities and no longbows, so they should go down easily to maces.

 

[culdeus]

In BTS I always use bombard. Wasn't always that way in vanilla, but with the changes they implemented it makes the most sense. If you've got the overwhelming tech advantage then it's slower to go around with suicidal cats. Maybe throw one or two at a capital, but nowhere else.

First time I saw that city I thought "No Obama". lol. Yes, that looks like a premium military site.

 

[WastinTime]

WT, SP eliminate only the distance from palace, not number of cities costs, nor corporations costs.

Corps don't come until we're almost done with the game t250.

# city maint is 6. So a courthouse saves 3/turn. Not useless, but not important. So if we do any, do some now before SP. We need 6 courthouses for the ForbidPalace. 50 turns from now, it won't be worth the hammers to build new ones. Building wealth would be smarter at that time.

 

[WastinTime]

Plan 2.0 didn't include any new spear/axe. How about 2 of each from Eng? since it's not doing the cats or the market, etc. We have 2 new Shaka cities that need police coming in 2 turns. Then J's cities...and it's a long walk for those police. Nobamba has the cats coming, so we can't wait for Nobamba to deliver the police.

 

[greatbeyond]

My two cents (at today's exchange rates, real value is not much)

Peace with Shaka for HBR, a City, whatever we can get out of him. He will be crippled and no threat. If we just settle with him, we can redeclare after 10T. If we vassalize him, we have to wait for him to grow to the point where he becomes a free state again. The one advantage to this is we can direct his research efforts and force him to join our wars. I doubt very much he will build any wonders. I am kind of leaning toward this as I believe that our economy will be run down for awhile after we take Joao's cities. We might consider the same strategy with him.

I'm definitely leaning toward one of the Romans as a target. I would like to get the Pyramids as it will speed up everything and allow us to skip several techs. Gandhi won't be much of a problem. I understand the arguments about his culture overtaking captured cities, but I don't think we'll let him live long enough to interfere.

GG - I'm leaning toward joining him to 2-4 Maces. Give them +20% or 30% strength, CR1,2,3 and 25% vs Archery. They will be unstoppable. One concern about Caesar is those Prats. If he doesn't have them yet, we need to make sure he doesn't get them. They are more than the equal of our Maces and cheaper for the AI to build.

 

[Mesix]

I'm okay with the peace with Shaka for HBR and a free city provided the city has something going for it. If it is a crap city that will just increase our already high maintenance then conquering and razing the city is a better option.

IMO the GG should be attached to a maceman. Best if it is a newly built unit that is alone in a tile to get the maximum benefit from the free exp. Get the leadership propmo for +100% exp and CR3. Upgrading a GG unit is free so he will eventually be a CR3 rifelman with some combat promos. We should put off joining a GG to a city until we take a city on the other continent. That is where we will need to build the HE and WP to crank out units close to the front in the late game.

If we run State Property it will be short lived. We need to build 7 corporate HQ and we can't do that under State Property. Using a combination of Versaills and and Forbidden Palace strategically placed will work well for reducing maintenance for distance from palace. We should also prioritize courthouses in all of our cities. Building 2 HQ in Parma along with Wll Street should also provide a generous amount of gold for our economy.

Speaking of Parma, we need to build every revenue boosting building possible there. Market now followed by grocier and bank when they become available. We also need to get a couple of missionaries to the other continent and spread to the capitols for India and Holy Rome as they are the most likely to continue to spread for us.

 

[Mesix]

Since we will be taking out the AI civs one by one and keeping a tech lead in the process, it is not feasible to expect the AI to build late game wonders. We will need to build the following wonders ourselves, and maybe a few more. Any long term strategy should include a plan to finish these before we achieve a VC.

Broadway...................Mass Media
Cristo Redentor...........Radio
Eiffel Tower................Radio
Holly Wood.................Mass Media
Kremlin......................Communism
Pentagon...................Assembly Line
Rock & Roll.................Radio
Space Elevator............Robotics
Statue of Liberty.........Democracy
Taj Mahal...................Nationalism
Three Gorges Dam.......Plastics
United Nations............Mass Media

 

[Mesix]

As a reminder we need to self build all the national wonders too. We can only build 2 per city. We need to start discussing where they will go.

Remaining National Wonders:
Forbidden Palace..........Code of Laws
Globe Theatre..............Drama
Hermitage...................Nationalism
Heroic Epic..................Literature
Iron Works..................Steel
Mt. Rushmore..............Fascism
National Epic...............Literature
National Park...............Biology
Oxford University..........Education
Red Cross...................Medicine
Scotland Yard.............Communism
Wall Street.................Corporation
West Point.................Military Tradition

Engineering should build IW.
Parma should build WS.
5th should build OU unless there is a better research center.
FP shuld either be build in one of Joao's cities or on the other continent.
WP and HE should go somewhere on the other continent.

I have no opinion on the others as of yet.

 

[Mesix]

Provided we have a plan to self build the late game wonders listed above, here is a list of wonders that we will count on the AI to build. It doesn't really matter which AI builds them as long as we can take them.

Angkor Wat................Philosophy
Apostolic Palace..........Theology
Great Library...............Literature
Mausoleum of Maus......Calandar
Notre Dame................Music
Parthenon..................Polytheism
Shwedagon Paya.........Aesthetics
Sistine Chapel.............Music
Spiral Minaret..............Devine Right
Versailles...................Devine Right

 

[Mesix]

In the list of late game wonders and national wonders there are 25 total that we need to plan for. We should not wait until the last minute plan their production. Marbles seems like a good spot for some wonders and 5th can also churn several out after Joao is finished and our military moves to the other continent. I still think that Ghandi should be our first target to take his 3 shrines for income ASAP. First we need to finish off Joao and research Astronomy obviously.

 

[culdeus]

I am in the process of getting a new and turning in my old laptop. My original civ disk is giving me a data2.cab error despite it working to run when using it to play vanilla. I may be on hold for a few days till I find a workaround for this.

 

[culdeus]

We've seen wonder AI scores of 10 build 5 of them already. I'm wondering if pumping up J with tons of wonder techs and just hope he builds some of them. He's isolated and if we give him room and don't put a bunch of military pressure on him maybe he pumps a few for us.

I'm just not sold on the "take J" gameplan yet.