SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

[Mesix]

We need guilds/banking for repParts, so we won't be able to wait and trade for it. Normally, I'd agree with you 100% on getting guilds/bank free.

You keep saying how corps are better that stateProp. I know that they're close because it has sparked huge discussions. However, in our case, it's not close. Those debates are talking about longer games. This one should be over 10-20 turns after the corp techs are discovered.

I'm sure there is a corp focused strategy (like sushi) that might have been great, but we'd have to be trying harder to get it rolling....mmm sushi rolls.

RE Diplo: With vassals, wouldn't we be likely to hit the self-voting rule which prevents a win?

Getting the production bonus from Mining Inc will help us to build the late game wonders much faster. Getting the food and culture bonus from Sushi will allow us to run more specialists and keep the AI from encrouching on our conquered cities with culture. I generally don't get Corporations in most of my games because I like to go for an early win via domination or AP vote. When I do play into the modern era, corporations are almost indespensible. The only time that I use a State Property strategy is when I have to go for a Vanila Space Race VC game for HOF EQM submissions.

In the current situation, Communism makes the most sense in the near term though. I agree with your previous suggestion to do a Liberalism pop for Communism and build the Taj Mahal for the free GA to switch civics.

 

[berserks01]

I'm not saying I disagree, but why?

Are you sayin, let him build RockRoll, hollywood, Etower, UN, etc? That's sounding better, cus I think we'll have our hands full trying to get dom and build all those wonders.

So we let him get Grens and we take him out with Infantry.

Gandhi could also try to pull off a culture win.

I think we need to consider how we want to win this one. Do we want to build all the wonders and then win? Or do we want to win as fast as possible and grabbing all the wonders already built.

We should forget all the wonder modifiers, previous games, and past info since we can't rely on them as being consistent. Doing so will on hinder us and throw off our game if we decide to plan our turns based on them only to see the AI do something we didn't forsee/expect. We just have to look at this game as it is and only consider previous games and informations as a supporting facts, but keep in mind that they don't dictate factual facts on how the AI will behave in this game. If we see an opportunity, take it. But make sure we look at all the facts that this game provide and not some previous game we've played before.

Gandhi has proven that he's willing to build all the wonders for us. So why not vassalize 2~3 other AI and take the other cities that has wonders for us. We just need to make sure that:

1. We keep an eye out so that we do not exceed out dom limit by mistake
2. Let Gandhi build our wonders for us
3. Keep an eye out for Gandhi achieving cultural victory.

Then when we're close to the dom limit, we'd have our armies positioned to take on and finish Gandhi in a few turns razing as we go and only keeping the wonder cities so that we'd end the game a turn or 2 after we're in control of all the built wonders.

We'd need to keep our espionage points at Gandhi so we can see what he's building in which cities. This way we can wait a couple of turns if he's in the middle of building a wonder when we're ready to take on him.

That's my 2 cents. That is how I would go about with this game.

 

[WastinTime]

In the current situation, Communism makes the most sense in the near term though. I agree with your previous suggestion to do a Liberalism pop for Communism and build the Taj Mahal for the free GA to switch civics.

Taj is a nice GAge if we can get it, but I was talking about the GAge you get from the free GSpy at communism. Use that before civic changes, because there's no anarchy in a GAge (Ya'll probably know that, but it's easy to forget. I know I have.)

 

[WastinTime]

Then when we're close to the dom limit, we'd have our armies positioned to take on and finish Gandhi in a few turns razing as we go and only keeping the wonder cities so that we'd end the game a turn or 2 after we're in control of all the built wonders.

We'd need to keep our espionage points at Gandhi so we can see what he's building in which cities. This way we can wait a couple of turns if he's in the middle of building a wonder when we're ready to take on him.

That's my 2 cents. That is how I would go about with this game.

That sounds good on paper. I've tried a few half-assed tests and the dom limit seems so far away. I wish we could do like you describe: get close to dom and then hang out and build a few wonders waiting to finish Gandhi at the appropriate moment. However, in practice, I sense that if we go all out for 80 turns in an efficient attack pattern, we still may come up short. Now, we can surely do it, but I don't think it's going to be relaxing as you described.

And, you reminded me...I switched all our espioinage to Gandhi a while ago figuring J would be beaten down before we'd get enough esp. to learn anything.

 

[WastinTime]

When I do play into the modern era, corporations are almost indespensible.

Well, there ya go. We are not playing a modern era game.

After my last tech list (ending in Steel) all we have left is:

(Constitution (free))
Phys
Elect
Radio
MassM
Steam Power
(Corporation (free), Democracy (free))
Assembly (pentagon)
Fascism (Mt. Rush)
(Bio (free))
Medicine (GM)
Refrigeration (GM)
RailRoad (GE)
Combust (GE)
(maybe Indust, plastics)

 

[culdeus]

Ok tried to boot up CIV and had no issues really, but the system I have now needs a little more heft in the memory department or I could risk a bad misclick. Some is on order and will be here in <2 days. I'll be out of commission till then though I can at least look around and make commentary on the situation.

 

[berserks01]

That sounds good on paper. I've tried a few half-assed tests and the dom limit seems so far away. I wish we could do like you describe: get close to dom and then hang out and build a few wonders waiting to finish Gandhi at the appropriate moment. However, in practice, I sense that if we go all out for 80 turns in an efficient attack pattern, we still may come up short. Now, we can surely do it, but I don't think it's going to be relaxing as you described.

Doesn't the victory screen tells you your dom limit status including all your the vassal's half as your own?

 

[culdeus]

I still need to do the tilecount of the island. If holding that, what we have already, and J = domination then I'm fine with whatever. If we have to putz around settling the middle finger and all the outlying islands it's a gamble that our time will be too long.

 

[Mesix]

Well, there ya go. We are not playing a modern era game.

After my last tech list (ending in Steel) all we have left is:

(Constitution (free))
Phys
Elect
Radio
MassM
Steam Power
(Corporation (free), Democracy (free))
Assembly (pentagon)
Fascism (Mt. Rush)
(Bio (free))
Medicine (GM)
Refrigeration (GM)
RailRoad (GE)
Combust (GE)
(maybe Indust, plastics)

Don't we also need to get Robotics for the Space Elevator, Rocketry for Aluminum Inc. HQ, and Plastics (definately) for 3 Gorges Dam and Standard Ethenol HQ?

In fact, once we get Railroad and Medicine we can run the 2 best corporations (Mining and Sid) for this game type. The research corporations come too late to make a difference.

Also, if I understand your post correctly, the plan calls for 2 GM and 2 GE for bulbing. Are they in addition to the 7 great people needed to found the Corporate HQ (7 wonders)? How are we going to pop 10+ great people in the next 83 turns?

 

[WastinTime]

No bulbing. That list shows the GMen needed to found the corporations. I was just indicating those as the best techs to end the game with.

Indust & plastics are a "maybe" because it may not be worth the time to research those. We will only consider it if we have an extra GE for the Dam.

I don't see Artill+Rocketry worth the effort either, but maybe our tech pace will be screaming. Could be researched while we're finishing the Dam.

Space elevator is so far out of reach, it can't possibly be worth it.

 

[Mesix]

In the short term we definately need to take out Joao as quick as possible. Once we get rifelmen we should be upgrading units and loading them on boats to take out Delhi. We will not have nearly as high of tech rate without the gold from those two (three if you count Bombay too) shrines. Delhi should be the site for our Wall Street. We can count on one of the other AI players to build the few wonders that are left for them to build.

 

[WastinTime]

I think Mesix is correct. Those cities are big and juicy. And close (if that matters). But let's take care of J before we try to vote on the next target.

 

[Sweetacshon]

I agree with the rapid demise of Joao. Culdeus, do you think your hardware isues will be sorted out, or do you want to swap with.... Balthalion (are you still out there, mate-o?)

 

[BLubmuz]

Some busy days, i've read our thread but i need to look at the save to contribute.
Updated page 1.

If culdeus can't play, someone can swap? let me know.

 

[culdeus]

Memory isn't in. I don't want to risk any issues with the game being as big as it already is. ETA would be tomorrow at the earliest for me.

 

[greatbeyond]

I think letting India build most of the Wonders for us is a good idea.
Take Joao and Shaka out.
Concentrate our best cities on getting the GP we need.
Upgrade out units and move then to the other continent .
As we approach the end of the game we will need to analyze if the additional turns to get further wonders will add to our score.

 

[MacBalt]

I agree with the rapid demise of Joao. Culdeus, do you think your hardware isues will be sorted out, or do you want to swap with.... Balthalion (are you still out there, mate-o?)

Still here and trying to keep up, if a bit sporadically. I could swap culdeus if necessary. I'll have to catch up a bit on the latest posts and then post a plan on Saturday with an eye toward playing on Sunday. Monday is completely impossible for me, but if there is lots of discussion and delay I could play on Tuesday as a fallback. Let me know culdeus...

 

[BLubmuz]

Posting this with the save open.

We can take Numidian, we'll gain some money.
I think we can keep it.

Also a city 2W1S (plains hill) of copper can be decent, and we'll avoid to fight for some crappy city around there.

Fifthburg is working an unimproved hill.

I think our army is not big ennough to quickly wipe Joao.

Better settle the new city, take Numidian, build some more unit, then start the war.

I guess we need at least 5-7 turns to start the party, remember, he's got Lbows and Xbows.

 

[culdeus]

Still here and trying to keep up, if a bit sporadically. I could swap culdeus if necessary. I'll have to catch up a bit on the latest posts and then post a plan on Saturday with an eye toward playing on Sunday. Monday is completely impossible for me, but if there is lots of discussion and delay I could play on Tuesday as a fallback. Let me know culdeus...

go ahead. Still nothing here. This weekend is not good for me. Next week mostly free though.

 

[MacBalt]

go ahead. Still nothing here. This weekend is not good for me. Next week mostly free though.

Okay. I've got the save. Will post a draft plan tomorrow and figure on playing on Sunday.

From a quick read of the last few posts, I'll plan on a short peaceful turnset building and re-positioning military until just before getting Liberalism. If WT's projection is right, that might only be about 7 turns or so. If anyone has specific thoughts on where to put our units, please voice them now. (Culdeus, if you're going to manage the invasion, then where would you like to start from?)

Open to other ideas too, of course...