SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

Maybe not for the Portuguese war, but anyone of the oldest team members remember the galleon/transport hopping of an early SG?
We can create a chain of galleons, and move troops across ocean at lightspeed.

It's a bit boring and RL time-consuming, but very effective.
In the end we got only 8 turns/TS, so this can't be a big issue, right?

Note: it's not good for the first wave, for that we must unload no less than 4 full galleons, or we risk our invaders will be wiped. But once we have a beachhold...

 

[culdeus]

The number of galleons depends on the distance traveled plus invasion size needed and can be augmented if there's a safe place to set down in prior to invasion. I think we need at least 8. We have a caravel and a few triremes that can be upgraded with the cash generated in this war. Those carracks are going to pose a major threat to the west coast.

I probably didn't handle the build queues right. I usually play two types of games either a domination on emperor or conquest on immortal with a mix of diplomatic wins thrown in if I have to. So typically I always do the HE close to home a bit earlier than now so I can use it more. I still think some of the other builds are needed to supply defense (longbows in parma and barracks in canal for more longbows) for international cities especially in light of how we are viewed over there.

The jungle chops can't be that big a deal economy wise and should help get that river cottaged asap which was my objective there with a cultural leader.

In my mind I saw the next war turns going something like this:

-Catapults move towards Oporto with it's supporting maces. That force south of E should be nearly sufficient with two additional maces pulled from maces coming down from north. Knock down to 0% suicide one and take it. The healer is on the boat and will hit E in the next turn and can be adjacent to Oporto before it falls.

-The rest of the mace stack can swing west and take Coimbra without cat support. Move the healer chariot from E to join in with this group. There is another city to the NE that you can see in the screen. I would expect it to be lightly defended. This stack should be able to take it without cat support with 2-3 survivors and establish the port that will move our army across the sea.

-The spy near oporto might be able to do a spy mission on the capital (lisbon IIRC) to help there. Reinforcements via land should be linked up and with cat support and one additional suicide will have J down to 3 cites (I think) one way south in the tundra and two further east. I think that one in the tundra has fur and maybe even a metal, but I might be mistaken.

-Note:J does have a spy or two and has pillaged some of our stuff.

-Soon there will be two galleons on the east coast. The next two should be loaded up and taken to the tundra city. Then the galleons can spin back towards far canal and go to the west coast. The tundra army can then head to mopup duty to the city Wand slightly S of Lisbon.

-Once lisbon falls move our upgraded galleon armada around to the port city and get ready to send a wall of sails across to the next victim.

-The next TS should get 4 cities in 6 turns or less. Have fun.

 

[WastinTime]

There's going to have to be a healing period before the cats can head south. Everyone will have to pile into the city. There has to be a large stack of defenders or we could lose all the cats to J's last stand.

Tech: Like culd said, we don't have anything in guilds yet. That's all overflow because of the liberalism thing (that's actually why I stop 2 turns from Lib--small detail, but usually, when you get back around to finishing Lib, it's 1 turn instead of 2.) Only gandhi has edu, so he's the only one that can beat us to econ, but he needs guilds/bank too. Since we're in a GAge, that probably can't happen. culdeus, can you look back in your autosaves and see when gandhi started guilds and how many turns that tech takes for him? It's only a 2 turn tech for us. If it's 4-5 for him, then he's not teching fast enough to beat us. If he just started guilds and it's only 2 turns, then we have to go guilds now.

EDIT: On 2nd thought, let's not blow 1st to econ, on the prayer that they'll trade guilds. I'm good with guilds in 1 turn. GunP first doesn't get us to rifling any faster, we still would take the econ detour.

 

[culdeus]

3 turns for ghandi guilds at the start.

 

[greatbeyond]

I'm still digesting the last TS and what has been said. I'll try and post a plan Friday night.

 

[Sweetacshon]

So if it's 3 turns for guilds for G, we are teching a little faster, give or take overflow. Not fast enough to gamble on the GM, tho imo. We are a little GMan starved as it is.

The attack plan sounds good. Don't forget to send the spy over to India or Rome if there's a caravel handy... after we've found out about lisbon's defences... as some early intel on the levels of troops needed OS would be very useful.

 

[Mesix]

Disagree here. There's a galleon ready from stone. With that 3 units can be sent from santarem to E each turn which is faster than even a horse over road can get there. The santarem-E ferry will really help out. Later the ferry can stretch further down the coast. I always overbuild galleons because with the circumnav they can serve as a huge speed increase to a conquest as long as you can hop them down coastline like this.

Good idea. It will get them into the action faster.

 

[Mesix]

The number of galleons depends on the distance traveled plus invasion size needed and can be augmented if there's a safe place to set down in prior to invasion. I think we need at least 8. We have a caravel and a few triremes that can be upgraded with the cash generated in this war. Those carracks are going to pose a major threat to the west coast.

I'm not sure if we will have the cash necessary to upgrade the boats. It's better to upgrade macemen to CR3 rifelmen. Galleons can be built.

 

[WastinTime]

we've got to get some banks up by the time rifling comes in. Then we run 0% research for a few turns to pay for everything. If we're upgrading some boats, then we definitely don't need to build any more. What are we going to do with 10 galleons?

Is there a date when barbs stop? We haven't seen a boat in a long time. Can we move out all our boats the are sitting around guarding our seafood?

 

[culdeus]

If we are really to cut down on galleons and use the other continent for military then we really need to be careful about who dies first. I'll do some scouting of high hammer cities in a cluster.

Also keep in mind in BTS that the AI really actually makes an effort to sink your ships. Having a drydock to provide empty cannon fodder sometimes is needed.

 

[Mesix]

we've got to get some banks up by the time rifling comes in. Then we run 0% research for a few turns to pay for everything. If we're upgrading some boats, then we definitely don't need to build any more. What are we going to do with 10 galleons?

Is there a date when barbs stop? We haven't seen a boat in a long time. Can we move out all our boats the are sitting around guarding our seafood?

We also need to get the requisite banks in place to build Wall Street when we research Corporation so that we can get the economic boost from that. Delhi looks like a prime location for Wall Street.

 

[WastinTime]

We won't research Corp, we'll trade for it. Remember we lose the Great Lighthouse then.

 

[greatbeyond]

Barbs are there until the end, unless you eliminate all coastal "fog-of-war". Barb Galleys and triremes will still spawn and follow the coast. However one Caravel or Galleon, 1 north & 1 south, should be enough to eliminate any that come near.
I don't know that I've ever seen a Barb Caravel, or newer ship.
I've been going over the save and still working out the details but first impressions are we need to produce our remaining military and then switch to science.
We need to worry about our own continent before producing Galleons to get to the other continent. I suggest building mounted units that can be upgraded to Knights, Maces/Pikes, and Cats or Trebs.
We will also need to do some wonder building to get the National Wonders.
Gandhi will give us Eng, world map, and 10G for Astro. The other civs want Astro, or several techs for Eng. I think it's worth the price to get Pikes and 3 movement. What are we willing to trade?

We also need more Workers, lots more Workers

Cities:
Some considerations: our cities are, for the most part too small. We are against the Happy cap in Fifth and Marbles. We either build a Temple to let them grow or use the excess food to farm GP. We still need some military so Fifth could build a Temple then Knights. Marbles could work on GP and/or Galleons.
Fifthburg - Temple (2T) or Galleons (2T)
Marbles - Temple (5T) or Galleons (4T)

Stoneopolis - Galleon (15T) or Kremlin (88T) ????
Engineering - HA (3T)
Parma - Forge (12T)
Far Canal - Forge (25T)
Ulundi - Cats (4T) or Colesseum (4T) for Happiness
Nobamba - HE (5T) then LH (4T)
Nongoma - CH (6T) A CH will not be need once we switch to SP, so perhaps a Wonder or Military or more likely, Workers.
Santerem - LH not CH
Leiria - Library
Evora - LH

War - Coimbra then Opporto. We need to get our military to the front a lot quicker.

I'll try to get a detailed plan together tonight and play tomorrow night, unless there's no comment.

 

[WastinTime]

Santarem doesn't need a LH. As it grows (slowly) it will work grass/workshops. Probably same for Evora, but I didn't look at the map. Nobamba could probably wait on the LH too, but I do recall it had a seafood tile at least.

Finishing courthouses we've already started is OK, but probably don't start new ones. We need some to build ForbidPalace.

Don't build workers, we capture them and we have enough. We just need to use them more wisely.

Farcanal probably shouldn't invest in a forge. It's not too bad, but I'd just go wealth.

 

[greatbeyond]

That is my point. It is growing way to slow. Irrigate at least one tile until it has reached a bigger size and then cottage.

Farcanal needs some kind of production. Either that or it needs to grow and produce GP.

 

[WastinTime]

I think it's too late for cottages in cities that don't have university/observ...or have the capability to grow and build those quickly. FarCanal get get some workshops going, but still, it may not be worth the investment in a forge.

 

[MacBalt]

Gandhi will give us Eng, world map, and 10G for Astro. The other civs want Astro, or several techs for Eng. I think it's worth the price to get Pikes and 3 movement.

I don't agree. Astro is an expensive tech and the longer we have a monopoly on sea transportation, the better. Lets not give it away for something as cheap as Engineering.

Cities:
Some considerations: our cities are, for the most part too small. We are against the Happy cap in Fifth and Marbles. We either build a Temple to let them grow or use the excess food to farm GP. We still need some military so Fifth could build a Temple then Knights. Marbles could work on GP and/or Galleons.

I agree with the general point about our cities needing growth, but Fifth should stay focused on research if possible. Maybe a temple or colosseum would be okay (for growth), but no knights IMHO.

War - Coimbra then Opporto. We need to get our military to the front a lot quicker.

Use the galleon to ferry units from Santarem to the front. Maybe there is another one coming soon too? Nongoma is almost ready to whip again if necessary (and as you pointed out, we don't really need that courthouse any time soon).

I liked the two pronged attack plan that culdeus laid out. IIRC, it had a main stack going through Oporto and Lisbon, with a smaller stack going through Coimbra to Braga. If we can get at least those four cities, then I think Joao is effectively toast. We can clean him up later with green troops that need a little experience. Of course, I'd love to get Lagos and/or Faro (in the south tundra) too, but that would be icing. (Faro might not be hard if we can ship a couple of maces down there quickly after the main four cities are down.)

 

[WastinTime]

I doubt this TS will go any farther south than Lisbon. If you do somehow get to a decision to move troops beyond there, stop. I'd like to review our options before moving down there. war weariness is coming and we don't really need to wipe him right now.

 

[greatbeyond]

Point well taken about Astro. I didn't fully explore all the trades available and we may be able to trade a couple of less important techs for Eng. I don't like the idea of giving the AI Astro either.

I'll double check Fifthburg's potential, but the reason I suggest a few Knights, is that we need a bigger military, faster than what we are getting now. We can cash upgrade but then we have to cut research back.

I took note of the Santarem ferry and will use it.

Is the consensus to revolt to SP and Pacifism at the start of my turn?

As for AI demands, I'm not to keen on giving anyone anything.

I'll check for comments later tonight (+/- 12hrs), then play 8 turns.

 

[WastinTime]

Is the consensus to revolt to SP and Pacifism at the start of my turn?

Not exactly. I think we're all on board with a golden age first (using Gspy). Don't go into anarchy. If we decide pacif, then of course don't forget confuc, but I think the team decided on free religion. We can always make another change before the GA ends, so maybe don't finish that last 8th turn. End with us still in the GA.