SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

greatbeyond · Nov 16, 2008

I had forgotten about the GSpy starting a Golden age. From your post, I assume we still revolt at the beginning of my TS?

I think Pacifism is by far the better choice of the two. We want GP as quickly as possible. Pacifism doubles the rate at which we can crank them out.

I'll check back later for other opinions and then play in about 7 or 8 hours.

WastinTime · Nov 16, 2008

My 2 fears with pacifism are:

1) how angry will everyone be. Someone suggested we gift some old tech to get more Pleased. I agree we must do this before taking on a religion.

2) Military cost. I've never played a game with an army this large, ever. How much more will it cost us when running Pacifism?

The good news is, if we hate the cost of pacifism we can switch for free to FreeReligion before the end of the GA. So like I said, don't press enter on that last turn. Cus then we have until the following TS to decide for sure about this pacifism/religion thing.

MacBalt · Nov 16, 2008

I have less experience with Pacifism, so I lean toward Free Religion on that basis alone.

Just thinking out loud, pacifism will cost us "+1 commerce support cost per military unit." I'm not sure how to calculate the exact costs, but it seems pretty obvious to me that going to pacifism while we're shipping troops off to one war and beginning to mass troops for a looming overseas invasion is just a bit too paradoxical for comfort. It feels wrong-headed to me. :shifty:

At the very least, I'd expect our science rate to suffer because of the reduced commerce being siphoned off to military support -- especially compared to the opportunity cost of losing the +10% science that would come from free religion. I'm not certain about this game because of its special parameters, but normally I'd always prefer to keep science as our top priority. Add to that the additional headaches that are sure to come with pacifism -- like pissing off the neighbors and making sure that every city we want to use for a GP farm has our particular brand of religion -- and it just begins to sound like way more trouble than it is worth.

Like I said though, I don't have a lot of experience with pacifism, so I'm happy to be proved wrong about this. :undecide:

WastinTime · Nov 17, 2008

Agree with the paradox.

Let's go StateP, FreeRel and stop w/1 turn left in the GA. Then think about pacifism again.
Maybe in another 30 turns we'll have IronWorks and run 4 engineers, then do pacifism.

We could still try to make more AI pleased w/(small) tech gifts

BLubmuz · Nov 17, 2008

Pacifism actually costs 1g per unit, but the civic cost is 0.
Thus *the civic* it's less expensive than FR or No R.
This partially compensate the higher units maintenance.

options:
1) We can revolt for 5 turns to pacifism/confu and SP, then go to FR, with no need to further decisions.
2) we can go straight to SP+FR and stay there until the end.

Option 1 can be interesting if we have more than one city close to pop their GPs, othewise we can go straight to FR.

Remember that the GAge also gives 100% GPs rate in BtS.

berserks01 · Nov 17, 2008

BLubmuz said:
Remember that the GAge also gives 100% GPs rate in BtS.

Is that regardless of whatever civic we're in?

How about we go Pacifism for the 10 turns we're in our Golden Age, and switch back to SP+FR on the last turn? That'd give us the benefit of Pacifism for 10 turns at least. And at least unit maintenence cost would be less than if they're on the other continent.

greatbeyond · Nov 17, 2008

The commentary on Pacifism comes a little late for my TS but we can still switch. I stopped after 7 turns with us in the last turn of our GA.

I didn't know about the doubled GP points in BTS during a GA. Thanks for the info Blubmuz. I prefer Pacifism when trying to produce lots of great people. The higher units cost does not seem to have that much impact. On the plus side for FR is the happiness and +10% research. Our happy cap is now better in each city. I think Fifthburg and Ulundi can now grow to size 20. I built Temples, Markets and/or Grocers, and a Coliseum to improve our happy cap in those cities. I have also built Banks and hopefully improved our cash flow. I'm thinking that as soon as the Banks are completed, those two cities can produce GP. Ulundi is probably best suited for this. We just need to make sure we keep the pop growing. I can't remember if I built a LH there but it's worth the extra food.

Research: IIRC, By boosting and MM, we got Guilds in 1T, Banking in 1T, Economics in 3T, used the GM to get Replaceable Parts in 2T , and have started on GP (2T) with 1T left. I probably could have bumped research a little more but I used some cash to upgrade two HA to Knights as we needed some more firepower. Overall the research seems to be speeding right along. I figured in about 12- 14 turns we could even have Infantry.

Military: I moved one stack to Coimbra and 1 to Opporto. I don't know where Joao is getting his units but I hope he runs out soon. There were 6 LBs plus another ~6 units in Opporto and Coimbra went from 2LBS and a Sword to a stack of about 7 or 8 including Cats. He used his Cats to weaken our units and I have moved them back. Hopefully he won't pursue them but instead attempt to counterattack at Opporto.
Opporto - I bombarded for a turn then ended up sacrificing 4 or 5 of our Cats to soften up the defenders. There were just way to many of them to risk losing our good units. We did take Opporto at just the loss of the Cats. We will need to build some more Cats or Treebs.

Joao sent to Carracks into the inlet to the west of Ulundi and lost one of his Carracks trying to kill our Caravel. Unfortunately we lost our Caravel to his second unit. I'm not sure if there are any units in his Carrack, but he hasn't landed any and it's been 3 or 4 turns. I sent a Galleon the long way around the world to provide some naval protection on that side of our continent. Speaking of which I don't think we need any more ships for the sea south of Santarem, as they can't get out of there without a strategically placed city being built.

Trades - In a controversial move, I traded Caesar Philo and Optics for Engineering, WM, and 30G. He would have settled for Philo and 230 Gold but we couldn't afford to give up that much gold. As a result, with the road completed all the way to Opporto now, we can rush our Knights to battle very quickly and we can get Pikes and Trebs.

Workers - I've got them improving Farcanal and our newly captured western area, building roads and getting rid of jungle.

Here is the file link: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm8/Fifth_Element_SG008_AD1270_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

greatbeyond · Nov 17, 2008

and the autolog:

Spoiler :

greatbeyond · Nov 17, 2008

The Log:

Spoiler :

BLubmuz · Nov 17, 2008

berserks01 said:
Is that regardless of whatever civic we're in?

Yes, it adds to your other multipliers (civics, buildings, leader).

Unit maintenance is the same if they are one tile outside the borders or in another continent.

Anyway i've seen my post came too late... sorry but it was morning here when i saw GB's one.
Well, i don't think it's a great loss.

I'm more concerned from our GM from Econ burned on RP.
I like to do so, but do not we need a GM for one Corp?
Maybe we already have one?

berserks01 · Nov 17, 2008

I noticed that as well. I thought we were suppose to save our Great People for corps? Did we already have a GM sitting around somewhere that I missed?

WastinTime · Nov 17, 2008

Yes, GM was wasted big time. We saved maybe 1-2 turns on RP, and possibly lost a wonder. I thought it was very clear we were saving him. It's been posted many times.
Now we still need 2 more of those.

I like the Eng. trade fine. Still need to look at the save....

WastinTime · Nov 17, 2008

If we weren't going to use the GM for a corp, a vastly greater use for him would have been his trade mission. What is that 1000 or 1500 gold? That would have let us upgrade our army without wasting 5 turns of research making cash. :deadhorse:

Very shortsighted.

culdeus · Nov 17, 2008

oof

:suicide:

WastinTime · Nov 17, 2008

You just finished the Heroic Epic in the city with our military instructor...and now you're building an observatory...in a city that will be almost all workshops? Which brings up another mistake, the grass tile at this city has a new cottage. That was supposed to be a workshop -- change it. This is the HE/instructor city! And no more whipping in this city. Let it grow and work workshops.

Parma has not started it's Bank or even grocer yet. (bank first, maybe even slavery it a bit)

A barracks in FarCanal? How many military cities do we need? some need to start wonders.

Engineering needs some serious MM It has 4 unused workshops and is working inferior forest and ocean tiles. Ulundi can also get off the rice and on the cottage. Nobamba need to get off the cottage and on the workshop (and have more workshops built).

Boats aren't trapped south of santarem. They can sail thru the fort, remember.

STOP chopping jungle outside our borders. Why are we doing this constantly? There is plenty of jungle to chop and it doesn't cost us $$ for units outside our border. Even better, we can put a workshop there if it's inside our border. Otherwise jungle just re-grows. OMG. I looked again. It's worse. The jungle being chopped by TWO workers is not even a workable tile. So sad.

We should have switched to confu first, then SP+FreeRel. I'm pretty sure if/when we decide to do pacifism, we woulda got a free switch to confu. Another turn wasted.

BLubmuz · Nov 17, 2008

Can't say good TS, if not for the war.

No, let's forget pacifism, now we're in FR and we stay there until the end.

Where's Mesix?

WastinTime · Nov 17, 2008

We're not getting any culture pressure from J's cities right now. How about 10 turns of peace? We have almost no healthy units in his territory. They get a free trip out of there and can heal. In 5 turns we'll have rifles and we heal up, then we generate cash for 5 turns and upgrade. Then we don't have to waste a stack of cats. Virtually no military losses any more.

culdeus · Nov 17, 2008

What happened to the ferried troops for the south city? What about the north stack. There doesn't seem to be any assaults on the other cities in the log.

WastinTime · Nov 17, 2008

The galleons should all rendezvous at Braga (J's north/west city) Some troop ferrying and then going off continent soon.

WastinTime · Nov 17, 2008

BLubmuz said:
No, let's forget pacifism, now we're in FR and we stay there until the end.

I think our hands are tied now. We may eventually have to go pacifism (after we get IW probably). We needed some luck to get the GMen we wanted, now we need a miracle. Engineering should start the NatEpic. It's about to finish it's GP. Once steel/IW is available we want to build IW fast and run 4 engineers. We can calculate if Pacifism is needed then.

SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

King

Deity

Learnéd Fool

Deity

HoF Quattromaster

Obviously Very Confused

King

King

King

HoF Quattromaster

Obviously Very Confused

Deity

Deity

Emperor

Deity

HoF Quattromaster

Deity

Emperor

Deity

Deity

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