SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

[WastinTime]

wait to found corps. No rush since they have no effect in SP.

Let's not burn the GE on pentagon. Start a GA now (how long is it? 15 turns?) We can't wait. It's kinda sad we didn't have a golden age already and we'd be planning a 2nd one. I think we'll have fewer Gmen than any other team.

Since we have to grab the wonder cities from rome/greece. Can't we just assume they'll capitulate for the conquest win? Why bother with all this UN talk. Waiting 4 turns for sec-general vote, then 4 more for the win.

Let's stay in Pacifism. I'm not thinking FR is that big of a boost. I'll have to look at it again. It may be better in this game than it normally is in my OCC or minimum city style games.

Agree to leave vienne to charlie. Peace and gems now.

I've always wanted to end the game at Refrigeration, but we can't get the conquest and the wonders by then. So I can agree to go to Rocketry.

 

[WastinTime]

I doubt anyone will have a wonder/turns ratio >1 like we can have if we manage a Diplo in the first or second UN vote.

I like your positive attitude, but I think you're forgetting all the turns we've wasted this game. We lost around 20 turns pre-astronomy and then at least another 20 turns along the way. Generating cash for upgrades is something I've never done before. I think we spent too many turns on that. I estimate the winner will be somewhere before turn 230 ending at Refrigeration.

 

[berserks01]

I agree with WT about the Diplo. I also think we'd achieve a faster victory if we go Conquest.

 

[BLubmuz]

I like your positive attitude, but I think you're forgetting all the turns we've wasted this game. We lost around 20 turns pre-astronomy and then at least another 20 turns along the way. Generating cash for upgrades is something I've never done before. I think we spent too many turns on that. I estimate the winner will be somewhere before turn 230 ending at Refrigeration.

I hope you're wrong, but true, we spent lot of turns generating cash.

My strategy works in this way:
We'll fight like if we go for conquest, if a diplo vote is possible before conquest, but after refrigeration and the conquer of at least 4 roman wonders, better.

The GA will be 12 turns, now that we own the MoM.
But we have not enough GPs for it.

2 GM, 1 GA, 2 GE are assigned to Corps.
If we want burn the GS for Aluminum and the GE on a GA we can, but we must hope for a GS or we'll loose a Corp.
Launching a GA can be another good reason to go in FR, we need only 1 GP (a GS) and it's like run Pacifism. We can also launch the GA and after 2-3 turns revolt to FR to see if we are lucky enough to sqeeze a GS.

If we think that a GA can help to accelerate our finish, let's go, but i think the bottleneck will be the units movements in the Roman war.

 

[WastinTime]

Aren't you confused about what it takes to start a GA? It's only one Gman in BTS. We just burn the GE.

 

[BLubmuz]

Aren't you confused about what it takes to start a GA? It's only one Gman in BTS. We just burn the GE.

We already burned our GSpy from Communism in our 8-turns-GA (badly used).
Now we need 2 GPersons.

Thanks to my First page links i verified, and i'm right.

Who is confused?

 

[Mesix]

We should already have enough airships and units to take Rome. Getting the units from HRE to the Roman borders will take a few turns though. If we strike in three forces, the Roman war should only take about 6-8 turns.

 

[Mesix]

I am optimistic that we can get three great people in time for the end of the game. I like the earlier plan to go for Plastics through Industrialism. 2 GE can rush the 3GD and we get Standard Ethanol with a GS. If we pop another GS we can even go for Rocketry to get both GS corporations.

We have 3K in the bank and don't need to upgrade many more troops. We can run a deficit to increase our research if we want to.

 

[BLubmuz]

I am optimistic that we can get three great people in time for the end of the game. I like the earlier plan to go for Plastics through Industrialism. 2 GE can rush the 3GD and we get Standard Ethanol with a GS. If we pop another GS we can even go for Rocketry to get both GS corporations.

We have 3K in the bank and don't need to upgrade many more troops. We can run a deficit to increase our research if we want to.

Sure, is what i proposed here.
And if you read carefully the same post, you can see that we're 12-14 turns from refrigeration.
You must add 8 turns for Rocketry and/or 11 for plastics.

Another point: 5 turns more make one more wonder useless: you add 5 to the divider with the wonder, but you add also 5 to the dividend.

wonders	turns	ratio
260	255	1,01961
265	260	1,01923
270	262	1,03053
275	265	1,03774
275	267	1,02996

As you can see, is better finish in turn 262 with a wonder score of 270 than in turn 267 with a WS of 275.

 

[WastinTime]

We already burned our GSpy from Communism in our 8-turns-GA (badly used).
Now we need 2 GPersons.

Thanks to my First page links i verified, and i'm right.

Who is confused?

Ok, I was confused. I'm actually glad we had that GA and I don't think it was badly used. We must still have one more GA before the end.
We need to rush the next Gman and see what we get.

Ulundi can get a Gman in 4 turns without losing any population to starvation.
Delhi can get one out 5 turns later.
Either Marbles or Engineering can get one out about 7 turns later, and then a 4th Gman comes out in 4 more turns.

That's 20 turns, so we probably won't get 4 before Rocketry. Let's plan for all 4 of these cities to pop one just in case our conquest takes too long. They all need to start running specialists this turn using caste. It's a shame we dragged our butt on this after CristoR.

 

[Mesix]

Sure, is what i proposed here.
And if you read carefully the same post, you can see that we're 12-14 turns from refrigeration.
You must add 8 turns for Rocketry and/or 11 for plastics.

Another point: 5 turns more make one more wonder useless: you add 5 to the divider with the wonder, but you add also 5 to the dividend.

wonders	turns	ratio
260	255	1,01961
265	260	1,01923
270	262	1,03053
275	265	1,03774
275	267	1,02996

As you can see, is better finish in turn 262 with a wonder score of 270 than in turn 267 with a WS of 275.

That is the point I was trying to make. 11 turns for Plastics nets 2 wonders (if we pop another GE to have 2x for the 3GD rush) vs only 1 for Rocketry. The additional 3 turns for Plastics is a better tech path.

Once the HRE cities come out of revolt our research will improve. We can also run a deficit for the final turns of the game to speed up research even more. Once we revolt to CS, we can starve some of our unnecessary cities (or have some idle workers plumb some farms in) to run more scientists which will improve our research even more. In short, there are a lot of ways that we can cut the estimated research times by a few turns.

 

[Mesix]

Our optimim tech path should be:

Railroad
Fascism
Combustion
Refrigeration
Industrialism
Plastics

...and if time permits:
Artillery
Rocketry

 

[Mesix]

WastinTime's comment about getting Fascism first for the free GG a few turns earlier is worth discussion. If we could get that GG to the front lines we could have another Super Medic to heal our troops. Alternatively we could settle him in 5th and take advantage of the +3 research from Representation whcih will be modified by OU and all the research buildings.

 

[WastinTime]

I'd rather see the GG do something on the front instead of a couple beakers. Supermedic may be a good idea because we probably have to split the troops to finish quickly.

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, i gathered enough suggestions for a revision of my PPP.
I'll post it tonight and play tomorrow, taking advantage of the time zones to see your comments.

 

[BLubmuz]

WT, you GP counts do not consider the increments you have after any GP birth.

Revolt to Caste:
We can probably sustain it, we have no problems of happiness.
But Ulundi is 41% for a GS and 45% for a GM.
This would mean that even running 5 more scientists for 8 total (starving -3), we can't be sure if burn a GS or a GM in a GA (together with a GE, of course).
In 5 turns we'll know, then i can lauch the GA in 5 turns.
But i can run 8 specialists without Caste. The result will not change much in 5 turns.
Dehli is 37% both for a GP or a GA. Working Iron instead of Clams and put a priest to work, we can have WS in 9 and next GP in 15 turns, but this will be more after next GP pop. Why we didn't built a forge? it would have pay for itself.
With 3 engineers at work, Eng can pop next GP in 13 turns (GE 77%). I think this will be our last one.

So, i think revolt to Caste is useless.
Gambling a GS on a GA makes rocketry useless if we're unlucky.
Launch a GA in 5 turns (after Ulundi's GP) seems the best choice, even if we can finish the game before its end.

As i already said, the path to Plastics is too long, and we need also a GE for the 3GD. BTW it can be built only in Fifth or Ulundi.

The Tech path is clear, at least to Refrigeration.
Just tell me if go for Fascism then Rail or stay on Rail. Anyway our GG will have a long trip to the front to be a SM.

Change civics to nationhood (also slavery?) draft (whip?) the possible, then go back to Bureau next turn.

War: if actually Charlie accept, vassallize him and let Vienne to him.
Then ask for his gems, maybe give something in change. We can also gave him rifling (he's 3 turns away), to help him fight.
Wait our troops are healed and in position (no less than 4 turns) then DoW Rome, possibly with a good stack 1W of Thebes.

If we decide to launch a GA in 5 turns, i propose to revolt to FR in the same turn.
Run science @ 90% with some 80gpt deficit.
For the rest, see my PPP draft.

 

[WastinTime]

WT, you GP counts do not consider the increments you have after any GP birth.

No, those estimates include increments after birth. They do NOT however, include the boost we get from the golden age. So we should be able to beat my estimates. You can starve more than that to get them out in time. Marbles will need the seafood from 5th. In your PPP, please list the exact specialists you plan to run in the 4 cities that can make GP. maybe even one more city that could be close to birth in 20ish turns.

 

[BLubmuz]

WT, if you want a GA, we do not need more specialists after Ulundi, unless they are GE or GS and we need to pray for 2 GEs.

If our target is the 3GD + Std Ethanol our rate can't be good enough.

Without GA we need only a GE, and he will come from Eng. (if we are lucky).
But Eng is at 13 turns from a GP running 3 eng. i can starve it and run a 4th one, but this will not compensate for the delay.
If i'm not wrong, the GA launched in 5 turns can roughly compensate the increase of GP points.
But since we need to burn a GE together with the Ulundi Gman, we cannot hope to have a 2nd GE for the 3GD.
So, Dehli must take it slow to avoid a GP birth before Marbles, our next city, but it generates a ton of GP points without specialists, so i think we can't avoid the birth.

In other words, since i hope to win long before we start research plastics or rocketry, i propose to:
Launch the GA immediately to build a ton of units and to accelerate our wonders and hospitals production, forget plastics, forget rocketry and try to win before those are directly researchable.

I can do it myself, but i'd like you post a detailed plan of what are:
- our resarch path after refrigeration, with turns at the present situation
- GP actually needed with and without GA (of course a GA will accelerate our research)
- our wonders/turns rate considering the variuos choices.

My calculations tell that the better choice is try to win in 15 turns, with all the Roman wonders and possibly the SM, but I can change my mind if you demonstrate the opposite.

 

[WastinTime]

I also want to win in 15 turns if we can. I wasn't sure we can do the conquest that fast. Maybe Nationhood would be good if we're going that way, but I'm thinking we can't draft on the other continent. I think we need more of our culture influence there before it allows that.

Let me look again and see if that is the way to go.

We'd still like a GProphet, right? run as many priests as you can

 

[WastinTime]

What cities would be like to own by the end? Anyone have that list handy?

Update: We will be all the way to Rocketry, beyond refrig, in 15 turns. No way we can conquer in 9 turns, so we need that GS for the corp. No GAge yet.

That means we rush the GMan in ulundi in 4 turns (massive starvation, but no loss of population...run 11 scientists and a priest...starving -8/turn, leaves 1 food). We need to move a GE to that city now, so it's ready to start the GAge in 4 turns. After that pops, we can consider FreeRel again.