SGOTM 08 - Geezers

[The-Hawk]

Personally, I'm a fan of the Parthenon, esp in long-term games (which this is going to be). So I would go for Parthenon before Great Library. With this number of cities, we can get a couple of scientists. No probs. But 50% GP boost - now that seems really worthwhile to me, especially if we're going for a priest or two.

Yes, I would like to try for Parthenon as well. We are going to need a gang of GP's for the corporations. I think Parthenon is huge.

Is there any way we can get Mids? From test games, when does AI build it?

 

[Misotu]

Splendid turn, The-Hawk. So many units!

We are poised. Uber-Supreme-FiveStar-General AgedOne to the Fore!

I think we have time to slip in a temple at Yas (3 turns). The workers are both nearly done on their tasks. They can camp the ivory - Yas can grow twice in a few turns and have a priest plus extra production for military. We need to do it now - otherwise the priest will be overwhelmed by the next Wonder in Yas.

3 turns for a temple - once Yas switches from the forested plains hill to clams, it grows in 4. Perfect. One priest, straight in. We can have that shrine in around 30 turns. That's about right, before we build the next wonder.

We should do currency ... no way Yas can stop building military for a while (except for the 3-turn hiatus to build a temple). I suppose we could consider a monastery as well, for the research boost, but maybe that's a building too far I would settle for just the temple. But I really think we need that for the medium-term objective, and I don't think it impacts so badly on the immediate Shaka-eradication objective.

What do you think should be the plan of attack The-Hawk? Can't see defensive units on the save game ...

 

[Misotu]

Is there any way we can get Mids? From test games, when does AI build it?

I don't know. In my test games, I built it Umm. Give me a couple of days, I'll test it out. I'm visiting my son Sunday so that's out.

 

[The-Hawk]

I think we have time to slip in a temple at Yas (3 turns).

What do you think should be the plan of attack The-Hawk? Can't see defensive units on the save game ...

I'm OK with a temple... would be nice to get the shrine asap.

RE: attack. My gut feel is we go straight at Ulundi. Last time I passed, it had 2 axes and 2 archers. Might be nice to get his capital while it is lightly defended. He had a big stack (7 units) near Nobamba, I suppose there is some risk he may slip behind us and head for our homeland. However, I think it is more likely he will send them to Ulundi to try to capture it back. If he does, we can attack him in the open field. Better than going after a big stack fortified in a city. Also, if there are resources in the city west of Ulundi, we will have cut them off from Nobamba. Only one city making axes instead of two. If he does head for our homeland, we'll capture at least one more city before he arrives. We can always sign for peace if he is getting too close.

 

[Harbourboy]

Random event destroys a Hari mine.

Again!? Stink one.

 

[AgedOne]

A busy night indeed!
(Note:Geezers to be renamed Talkoholics)
I haven't looked at the save yet, but from the look of the discussions we are sitting pretty right now. Well done, The-Hawk, for an impressive preparational turnset.

We are poised. Uber-Supreme-FiveStar-General AgedOne to the Fore!

No don't! Really, don't, Misotu! The cold sweat breaks out and I can foresee myself hobbling back to the team with my butt on a stick.

Is there any way we can get Mids? From test games, when does AI build it?

I think I left them in one of my practices just to see when they went. On that occasion it was somewhere near turn 135.


I'm up next. But first! The discussion period.
I won't put down the beginnings of a plan until later in the day. (No breakfast yet) All team input welcomed, of course. And can I say that we do seem to be working much better as a team this time around. (Crosses fingers. Touches wood. Spit, etc)

 

[Sam_Yeager]

RE: attack. My gut feel is we go straight at Ulundi. Last time I passed, it had 2 axes and 2 archers. Might be nice to get his capital while it is lightly defended. He had a big stack (7 units) near Nobamba, I suppose there is some risk he may slip behind us and head for our homeland.

It looks like a nice productive turnset Hawk. That power curve is very satisfying. Attacking Ulundi first sounds good to me especially since we can attack from the forest right next to Ulundi that Shaka has thoughtfully left for us. It also means we don't need to worry about Shaka mining that copper again. The counter attack from Nobamba will take a while to arrive which gives our force time to heal.

A few other comments:

• We should reallocate our EP spending to focus on Joao. It should be at least a 3 to 1 ratio if not more.
• At some point, although obviously not now, we should build some courthouses as they help EPs.
• If we eliminate Shaka and Joao knows no other civ apart from us then he will not trade with us. We may find it to our advantage not to capture all of Shaka's cities just yet.
• Perhaps it might be worth putting a turn or so in IW to reduce it's perceived value to Joao and trade for IW before the demise of Shaka? Or was that technique nerfed in BTS?
• I'm fine with the suggested temple after the current cat finishes. I still feel it is wise to continue with military for the time being though.
• Talk of Mids strikes me as an unnecessary distraction.

If he does head for our homeland, we'll capture at least one more city before he arrives. We can always sign for peace if he is getting too close.

Good point.

 

[AgedOne]

I've opened the save to have a look.
An impressive army! (I also like the power graphs - both the one within the game and the one on the progress page. Fear the Geezers, other teams )

I like the assault on Ulundi approach. Once the other units have joined the main army, I would walk up to the front door. Possibly, 2 tiles could be used for the attack (but it probably won't be needed - he has no cats) as indicated here:


I agree that Shaka's force in Nobamba will very likely head for Ulundi rather than sneaking back to our heartlands. We will continue building military to back-fill any casualties, and they will meet any of his units who do head east.

Shaka has 2 more cities unseen. Presumably further west. We can leave the furthest, smallest one alive if that suits our diplomatic plans better.

Beginnings of turnset plan
Espionage: re-jig to put all points on Joao
Tech: Put 2 turns into IW. Switch to Currency.
Yas: catapult => temple => axe => cat
Hari: axe => spear => axe
Workers1: finish mine, move to ivory, build camp
Workers2: finish road, move to ivory, build camp

Main Military: Wait until all grouped. Move in on Ulundi. Bombard. Cat attack for collateral. In you go! Back of the . . . erm City!
Then fight the Nobamba division and take that city too.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Once the other units have joined the main army, I would walk up to the front door. Possibly, 2 tiles could be used for the attack (but it probably won't be needed - he has no cats)

I'm unclear whether this means you're waiting for the three axes that are moving towards the chokepoint. If so, then you probably only have time to attack Ulundi during your turnset. I think waiting for the nearest axe to join the main stack should be sufficient especially since you'll then be joined in the attack by the scouting axe/spear combo.

I suggest that you send the axe/spear combo 1W and then in a curve to end up on the hill 1W of Ulundi This lets us scout a bit more whilst waiting for the main stack. Rather than the main stack going 2W->1NW as shown on your plan I suggest 1W->1NW->1W instead. If Shaka is foolish then he'll try to attack you across the river. If not then we haven't lost anything.

I suggest the remaining two axes and cat wait at the chokepoint ready for the attack on Nobamba. Route the WB north of stone island rather than following the coast back.

 

[The-Hawk]

We should reallocate our EP spending to focus on Joao. It should be at least a 3 to 1 ratio if not more.

At some point, although obviously not now, we should build some courthouses as they help EPs.

Good point. I am a complete noob at espionage. In my BtS games, I mostly ignore it, other than leaving a spy in each city to try to catch AI spies. I'll be interested to learn more about the finer points.

If we eliminate Shaka and Joao knows no other civ apart from us then he will not trade with us. We may find it to our advantage not to capture all of Shaka's cities just yet.

Tough call. We will have happiness problems if we let Shaka live. I suspect we will be able to make most useful trades before Shaka is finished. Then we will need to assess Joao's tech ability to assess whether he will be a useful trade partner. Of course, if Shaka is willing to give us a tech, it might be worth letting him live 10 more turns.

Perhaps it might be worth putting a turn or so in IW to reduce it's perceived value to Joao and trade for IW before the demise of Shaka? Or was that technique nerfed in BTS?

I have no idea...

I'm fine with the suggested temple after the current cat finishes. I still feel it is wise to continue with military for the time being though.

Depending on how initial attacks go, we might be able to stop military production. It would be nice to get Hari working on some settlers.

Talk of Mids strikes me as an unnecessary distraction.

Maybe. But I see three really nice food sites: marble island (3 fish), west of our cow site (rice, fish, and Shaka's cows) and Ulundi (at least 3 clams and a rice). Representation and a gang of specialists would really rock. However, you are probably right, we are not going to have time to do Mids, especially if we build Parthenon.

I suggest that you send the axe/spear combo 1W and then in a curve to end up on the hill 1W of Ulundi

The spear is wounded from killing the chariot. We might want to let him rest a couple of turns, then join the main stack 1S of Ulundi.

Shaka has 2 more cities unseen.

I missed this. At one point late in my turns I saw a settler in Ulundi. I guess he used it.

Move in on Ulundi. Bombard. Cat attack for collateral. In you go! Back of the . . . erm City!
Then fight the Nobamba division and take that city too.

Just be careful not to overdo the cat attacks. In BtS, they will only wound units down to a certain point. No reason to attack when they are no longer damaging. If you attack and don't see the little message about collateral damage on x units, then you are done.

I agree that we keep Ulundi and Nobamba. Once they are captured, we can scout the western cities to see if either are worth keeping.

 

[Harbourboy]

In my BtS games, I mostly ignore it, other than leaving a spy in each city to try to catch AI spies. I'll be interested to learn more about the finer points.

That is my exact espionage strategy as well, but clearly there must be other things you can do.

In BtS, they will only wound units down to a certain point. No reason to attack when they are no longer damaging. If you attack and don't see the little message about collateral damage on x units, then you are done.

In my games, the siege units can't attack any more when they reach that point because a red circle flashes up if you try and attack, so impossible to keep wasting attacks that don't cause more collateral damage.

 

[erikthecelt]

I am not so sure about attacking Ulundi before Nobamba. We are 1 turn away from Nobamba and 3 turns from Ulundi. We would then have to turn around and go back to Nobamba while leaving Ulundi with a defensive force. This costs us an extra 4 turns at least in order to take both cities. While we are attacking Nobamba, Ulundi is open to attack from the two other cities. We could either lose Ulundi or risk not having enough troops to take Nobamba. This is especially true with people talking about inserting non-military builds into Yas.
Nobamba is on a plains square and with the cats we should be able to take it in two or three turns. One turn to eliminate culture and the next two to eliminate it. It's only pop 3, so it will only be able to whip one more defender. If all 7 units are still there, then we have eliminated Shaka's main force and we can pick off the remaining cities. It's possible that some of the troops have left to found the 4th city. Any force moving from Nobamba to Ulundi will be harder to fight. They will always be in forest and probably across the river.

We should give Priest or Writing to Joao then we can trade either Alpha or CoL for IW.

I agree with Sam, all our EP should be asigned to Joao, they are wasted on Shaka.

Just a reminder, we are playing 5 + 5 turns during war.

 

[The-Hawk]

Erik, you make a good point. Taking Ulundi first may cause us to fight on two fronts. On the other hand, as our units move down from Ulundi to Nobamba, they can join up with new forces coming from our cities. If Shaka sends his units to recapture Ulundi, then the two front war is not an issue... we will be finishing his major army in the field near Ulundi.

Couple of good possibilities here... where is everyone else on this issue?

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I am not so sure about attacking Ulundi before Nobamba. We are 1 turn away from Nobamba and 3 turns from Ulundi. We would then have to turn around and go back to Nobamba while leaving Ulundi with a defensive force. This costs us an extra 4 turns at least in order to take both cities. While we are attacking Nobamba, Ulundi is open to attack from the two other cities. We could either lose Ulundi or risk not having enough troops to take Nobamba. This is especially true with people talking about inserting non-military builds into Yas.

Erik, you make a good point. Taking Ulundi first may cause us to fight on two fronts. On the other hand, as our units move down from Ulundi to Nobamba, they can join up with new forces coming from our cities. If Shaka sends his units to recapture Ulundi, then the two front war is not an issue... we will be finishing his major army in the field near Ulundi.

The point erik makes about having to leave a decent force in Ulundi or risk losing it whilst possibly having insufficient forces to take Nobamba is the key issue for me. The downside of Nobamba first is that we'll need to wait for those three axes to join the main stack which delays the attack on Nobabmba. OTOH we shouldn't need to leave that big a garrison in Nobamba when we head for Ulundi. As a result I'm going to change my mind and plump for Nobamba first.

 

[erikthecelt]

Equally, the new forces coming can move straight towards Ulundi and not bother with going towards Nobamba. The leaves us 4/5 turns closer to attacking the weaker western cities and shorter time to eliminating Shaka altogether. I don't think we leave in him the game to foster tech trades. After we get through with him he won't be able to tech anyway, he'll just be a nuisance on our borders.

Edit: Cross post with Sam. I don't think we need to wait at all. One turn for the bombard of the city and then two turns to eliminate the remaining troops.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I don't think we need to wait at all. One turn for the bombard of the city and then two turns to eliminate the remaining troops.

Workboat exposes Nobamba on southern coast. It is protected by 1 axe, 2 impis, and 2 archers.

(WB) Finds another Shaka archer and impi just south of Nobamba. Looks like he can get a stack of 7 in that city.

This was why I mentioned waiting for those axes.

 

[erikthecelt]

This was why I mentioned waiting for those axes.

I'm aware of that Sam - that's why I think it takes 3 turns. One axe will get there in time for the second turn attack and the second axe will get there for the clean up squad. The archer/impi are probably scouts looking for us in the far south. Right now we can't see Nobamba, so there is no telling how many units are present. If there are just three, we might be able to take it in one turn - 3 cats to bombard and one suicide. If we give it the bombard promotion we could get lucky and lose only one cat. I think we should just go for it.

Worst thing that happen is Shaka whips one more unit there, but with pop 3, he's only whipping one.

 

[markh]

Again I have to read 3 pages after not being online for a day. Nice work ! Looks good.

Let's go for Nobamba. Heading for Ulundi first to swing back does not make make much sense to me. I guess that should be enough for General AgedOne to get going.

We will have some time for the Panthenon. The AI usually researches Aesthetics quite late. If we can get Shaka down quickly we should be good with Panthenon and Great Lib.

 

[AgedOne]

Turnset plan (reprise)
To be played as a 5+5 (breaking off halfway through or thereabouts to allow for team assessment of position and the state of the war)

Espionage: re-jig to put all points on Joao
Tech: Put 2 turns into IW. Switch to Currency.
Builds: (Begin like this, but reassess after attack is under way)
Yas: catapult => temple => axe => cat
Hari: axe => spear => axe
Workers1: finish mine, move to ivory, build camp
Workers2: finish road, move to ivory, build camp
WB: routes back via the N coast of stone island.

Trading:
Give Priest or Writing to Joao, then we can trade either Alpha or CoL for IW.

Main Military:
Go straight for Nobamba right away. Other troops will catch up with the attack while bombardment is taking place.
Bombard. Then collateral (used efficiently), and attack goes in.

Next target is Ulundi.
New units approaching can decide to skip Nobamba (if the battle is going well) and head directly for Ulundi.

 

[The-Hawk]

Plan looks good. Once the temple is built, get a priest working so we can get a prophet.

Also, it would be nice if we could get another medic unit. Might want to promote one of the axes to combat.

Oh... and kick some Shaka butt....