SGOTM 08 - Geezers

[Sam_Yeager]

Cows are 1 tile from his city? We sit on them until the turn we attack. Same for the mines to the west, we can attack from those tiles. The only risk is splitting our stack... he might decide to try to attack one of the smaller stacks. However, I hope he does, seeing him kill off a bunch of defensive specialists (archers) trying to attack axemen would be wonderful.

My mistake, my memory was at fault. Because my PC is playing up I didn't load up the game to check before posting.

Yes, I am not sure about this either. My concern is he has 7 units (may have 8 by the time we attack).

Shaka already has eight archers as erik reported in his last turnset.

 

[The-Hawk]

My mistake, my memory was at fault.

I certainly can't blame you for that. I had to open the save to check myself.

I happened to hit age 49 yesterday, so I know all about the memory thing. I guess this is one of the inherent challenges of a team of Geezers!

 

[Harbourboy]

I am away on Wednesday and Thursday. Will we be ready to play Tuesday morning? Otherwise, I can't play until Friday.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I am away on Wednesday and Thursday. Will we be ready to play Tuesday morning? Otherwise, I can't play until Friday.

I don't see that there is any problem waiting until Friday if that proves necessary. Better to take our time now rather than rush for the sake of it. We are still 20+ turns ahead of every other team so we're hardly lagging.

Our strategy post at the start of the thread could do with an update for instance. This would help clarify our thoughts on wonders, tech paths and medium term strategy.

Although we're heading for Lib I've not heard any discussion about what free tech we want. Should we be looking to get optics sooner rather than later to meet other civs and get the circumnavagtion bonus?

 

[erikthecelt]

MoM tips - Build MoM, get artist from Music, start researching Liberalism, start Golden Age, take Nationalism from Lib, build Taj Mahal, use 2 GP produced during this time for third GA. Result 45 turns or more of 100% bonus to GP production plus a runaway tech lead during critical period of the game. Try it, you'll like it. Make sure you have your GP farm ready.

I'm happy with the plan Misotu has put together but Sam is right about needing to detail the tech path. We really, really, really need to agree on Dom vs Space, build vs conquer now. I belong to the Dom and Conquer school myself. So I prefer a militaristic route from here on in.

 

[The-Hawk]

Although we're heading for Lib I've not heard any discussion about what free tech we want. Should we be looking to get optics sooner rather than later to meet other civs and get the circumnavagtion bonus?

Damn good question. My inclination is to head for democracy, maybe taking constitution as the freebie. I think Representation would be excellent for us since we plan to run so many specialists. Given that, might as well go on and get Statue of Liberty.

However, you are right about optics. Information about the other AI's will be crucial in this game. For example, we don't know how hard to push our luck on Liberalism.

In any event, I'm thinking paper/edu makes sense as next techs. The sooner we get universities and Oxford, the better we do on whatever tech path we choose.

 

[The-Hawk]

crossed posts...

MoM tips - Build MoM, get artist from Music, start researching Liberalism, start Golden Age, take Nationalism from Lib, build Taj Mahal, use 2 GP produced during this time for third GA. Result 45 turns or more of 100% bonus to GP production plus a runaway tech lead during critical perios of the game. Try it, you'll like it. Make sure you have your GP farm ready.

I'm always willing to try new tricks... and this would be consistent with a run for SoL.

We really, really, really need to agree on Dom vs Space, build vs conquer now. I belong to the Dom and Conquer school myself. So I prefer a militaristic route from here on in.

This is also a damn good question.

I think it is inevitable we will be doing some serious AI butt kicking. However, the question is when. The critical path for winning this SGOTM is getting up the tech path quickest so that all wonders can be built quickest. A normal Dom game would be straightforward... tech to a decent military advantage (past Astronomy) and kick ass. However, this game will have two phases. We can't start warmongering too early, or the overall tech pace in the game will suffer. I think we need to play as if we were going for space (since that requires all the techs). However, when the time comes, rather than building space parts, we will be building MA's to go collect wonders.

This is not to say we won't have mid-era wars. If an AI starts looking dominant, we might need to knock it back. Also, the best way to fly up the tech path is to have a massive economy. We might need Joao's cities...

 

[Sam_Yeager]

The critical path for winning this SGOTM is getting up the tech path quickest so that all wonders can be built quickest.

Let's not forget that the victory condition is the wonder points per turn percentage. Controlling 50 wonders (250 points) and finishing on or before turn 250 is just as good as controlling all 62 wonders (310 points) and finishing on or before turn 310. Put another way we don't need all wonders & corporations to have been finished and under our control before the game ends.

 

[markh]

I like erik's idea with MoM.

I would like to see Shaka gone completely. Once we have his last city on our island we should make peace, but still check whether we can wipe out his colony in the not too far future.

 

[Harbourboy]

OK then, I won't be playing until Friday then.

 

[Misotu]

I think it is inevitable we will be doing some serious AI butt kicking. However, the question is when. The critical path for winning this SGOTM is getting up the tech path quickest so that all wonders can be built quickest. A normal Dom game would be straightforward... tech to a decent military advantage (past Astronomy) and kick ass. However, this game will have two phases. We can't start warmongering too early, or the overall tech pace in the game will suffer. I think we need to play as if we were going for space (since that requires all the techs). However, when the time comes, rather than building space parts, we will be building MA's to go collect wonders.

Yes, this is exactly what I've been thinking. I think a shortened version of this could go in our first-page objectives Sam?

I'm not suggesting we go for space - I'm just saying that we can keep it in mind as an alternative if the dom/conquest thing starts to bog down. I think dom or conquest is much more likely, given what we have to do.

I was interested in erik's plan for the Mausoleum - sounds really good. I tried it late-game - as The-Hawk says, knocking one turn off a tech by bulbing is neither here nor there, but running 2 or 3 consecutive GAs when you're building spaceship parts & trying to rush through those last few techs is pretty good. In our case, we'll still be generating GPs late game, and will probably have generated the odd artist or whatever for which there's no sensible use. So we can also use long, late GAs to crank out military for the final onslaught.

On the immediate military problem, I think a cat plus 2 swords should do the trick. The reason why I'd like 4 cats is the one given by The-Hawk. I want to make sure that all his defenders have serious bombard damage. Plus, the attacked defender can suffer more than 50% damage - and we'll be directly attacking half of his defenders with 4 cats. It just feels right to me.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Yes, this is exactly what I've been thinking. I think a shortened version of this could go in our first-page objectives Sam?

Is this a replacement of our overall strategy or in addition? If someone comes up with the wording then I'll add it.

I was interested in erik's plan for the Mausoleum - sounds really good. I tried it late-game - as The-Hawk says, knocking one turn off a tech by bulbing is neither here nor there, but running 2 or 3 consecutive GAs when you're building spaceship parts & trying to rush through those last few techs is pretty good. In our case, we'll still be generating GPs late game, and will probably have generated the odd artist or whatever for which there's no sensible use. So we can also use long, late GAs to crank out military for the final onslaught.

If we're going to go down this route then I suggest switching to Music now to make sure of that GA. That would make the tech path Music->Paper->Edu->Lib. Of course that means no caravels anytime soon and hence probably missing out on the circumnavigation bonus as that requires Compass->Machinery->Optics. Is that what we want?

On the immediate military problem, I think a cat plus 2 swords should do the trick. The reason why I'd like 4 cats is the one given by The-Hawk. I want to make sure that all his defenders have serious bombard damage. Plus, the attacked defender can suffer more than 50% damage - and we'll be directly attacking half of his defenders with 4 cats. It just feels right to me.

I just hope we don't end up one unit short on our attack. I'm pretty certain that cats can't cause more than 50% damage in BTS.

 

[erikthecelt]

If we're going to go down this route then I suggest switching to Music now to make sure of that GA. That would make the tech path Music->Paper->Edu->Lib. Of course that means no caravels anytime soon and hence probably missing out on the circumnavigation bonus as that requires Compass->Machinery->Optics. Is that what we want?.

We have enough GP generating power to skip music and produce our own in favour researching something before using Lib. I would say our tech path is Music (optional), paper, Edu, bulb Philo, Nationalism and then see if we need to go for Lib or if we can wait. AI is very slow to Edu in BTS Monarch we should be able to get Democracy or Replaceable Parts from Lib. The oppotunity cost is of course the beakers for Music vs a potentially good GP.

The MoM tip was to explain how I use it in my games where I want to beeline for Redcoats or something special.

I just hope we don't end up one unit short on our attack. I'm pretty certain that cats can't cause more than 50% damage in BTS.

Seems like over kill to me

 

[Sam_Yeager]

My previous post was primarily directed at the next turnset or two. However erik has raised the issue of the team needing to decide between

Dom vs Space, build vs conquer now

I am not so sure that the decision is that clearcut. Perhaps erik could explain his thoughts further. If we go down the militaristic route what should we be doing now in terms of techs and wonders?

 

[Sam_Yeager]

We have enough GP generating power to skip music and produce our own in favour researching something before using Lib. I would say our tech path is Music (optional), paper, Edu, bulb Philo, Nationalism and then see if we need to go for Lib or if we can wait.

We may well be able to generate a great person of our own but this increases the cost of generating the next great person. Getting a free great person from Music without this affecting the cost of our next great person seems a good idea to me.

 

[erikthecelt]

My previous post was primarily directed at the next turnset or two. However erik has raised the issue of the team needing to decide between

I am not so sure that the decision is that clearcut. Perhaps erik could explain his thoughts further. If we go down the militaristic route what should we be doing now in terms of techs and wonders?

It's about all of the wonders we are discussing. We have a list of priority wonders in our spreadsheet that we seem to be ignoring. We are not talking about building the National wonders which only we can build. We need more cities for the FP and we need more cities for the theatre/Library/University requirements for Globe and Oxford.
Our wonder building has slowed our expansion/economic development.

Current Plan:
Tech: Music, Paper, Education
War: Pillage uMung mines and wait for reinforcements.

Builds:
Ulundi: CH, sword, cat, MoM
Nobamba: switch to sword, finish forge
Angkor Wat: library, CH
Angkor Thom: Moai Statues
Yas: forge, monastory, market
Hari: spear, missionary, missonary
Nagara: archer

Where are the cities coming from that we need for Oxford/Globe/FP?
Where are the explorers? We know squat about the map. At this point of the game we should know a lot more. We can't trade techs effectively if we don't know anyone by Joao.

I think we need a couple of galleys in Yas that should be loaded with missionaries Angkor Wat.

Note: There is a fishing boat tucked safely into Ulundi because it almost ran into Shaka's galley. The fishing boat is no longer useful for exploring.

 

[erikthecelt]

A couple of points - Ulundi will finish the CH in 1 turn - same as the chop - it will get the 25% bonus for OR on the chop. That's lost if we switch to a cat. The cat will get the overflow anyway.
Nagara can run an artist and pop the border in 2 turns so it can work either clams or sheep.

3 scientists in Hari will produce a GS in 16 turns.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Anyone here?

We need more cities for the FP and we need more cities for the theatre/Library/University requirements for Globe and Oxford.
Our wonder building has slowed our expansion/economic development.
.
.
Where are the cities coming from that we need for Oxford/Globe/FP?

It seems to me that when (if?) we take uMung that we need to make peace and concentrate on a builder's game for a while to meet the requirements outlined above.

Where are the explorers? We know squat about the map. At this point of the game we should know a lot more. We can't trade techs effectively if we don't know anyone by Joao.

I think we need a couple of galleys in Yas that should be loaded with missionaries Angkor Wat.

I don't wish to be be rude but I feel you are exagerating. With the exception of the land to the south of Nobamba we have explored most of our existing land. We have explored as much as is possible, without seagoing craft, of the water in the east. Galleys in Yas is pointless as they would have to go to the west. We might as well build galleys in Ulundi/uMung (once we take it) to start with.

 

[Harbourboy]

Wow, I've been away for two days and there's only been a couple of posts while I have been gone. Are we even in a position to play tomorrow? I agree with the questions that are being raised and would like us to be more clear on what our strategy is from here.

 

[markh]

I think we are agreed to take the MoM path, Erik proposed. The last post of Erik summarized the next set well. Go HB, take that city.

For Oxford and Globe we need 6 cities which we have. We will need some courthouses and cottages to stable our economy. As we will keep Shaka's last city I would be cautious to settle another city. FP should be doable soon, too.