SGOTM 08 - Geezers

[markh]

I am totally fine with the scout moving to the gold hill. Then we can see whether we still want to settle in place or take another spot.

Do we have any volunteers for the first set ? Sam indicated he is fine with a stop and go set. If no one objects I would suggest that Sam moves the scout to the gold hill and comes back for discussions.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

According to my calculations Turn 310 equates to 1880 AD in BTS at normal speed (Turn 100 is 375 BC and turn 200 is 1400 AD). Since the maximum points available for wonders is 310 I think we need to work in terms of finishing on or before that date. Given that it's pretty unlikely that we will get maximum wonder points we should really be aiming to finish even earlier. My guesstimate is between turn 200 to turn 250 (1400 AD - 1700 AD) if we want to have any chance of the laurels.

Of all the potential VCs I think that rules out time, space and culture. [I'm just waiting for CRC to get gold with a culture victory now. ] That leaves Dom/Conq, Diplo & Religious as possible VCs. Formerly I would have ruled out the last two as options since we expected the AI to build the majority of the wonders. However various posts seem to indicate that we will need to build most of the wonders ourselves.

If that's the case it will be a real struggle to build loads of wonders and eliminate the AI. As far as Civ4 SGOTMs as concerned the earliest conquest wins I can find are 530 AD (T200 Epic) & 575 AD (T205 Epic). Both dates are in the region of turn 140 at normal speed which I think is just a bit too quick for us to achieve. Mind you, those other teams weren't building lots of wonders.

We also need to bear in mind that it is only the ratio that matters. Twenty wonders (100 points) at turn 100 is just as good as forty wonders (200 points) at turn 200.

The advantage of a diplo/religious victory is that they only require optics rather than astro. OTOH Dom/Conq does not depend so much on capricious AI.

*************

I'll wait about an hour from the time of this post in case there are objections before I move the scout.

@mark - Any word on a roster?

 

[markh]

Provisional roster :

Sam gets us started
Erik
Harbourboy
The Hawk
Thrallia
AgedOne
Misotu
Mark

 

[erikthecelt]

I had a look at some of the HOF Big and Small maps. All of them look as though Astro is not needed to get to all of the islands. That's been my experience with this map type. I think we can assume that astro is not mandatory for any type of win.

A quick AP win will probably be the fastest finish.

Until we have more facts, I don't see how we can decide that it's not possible.

Let's focus on optimum development and leave the VC until we know the general shape of what we are up against and the 7 leaders.

 

[The-Hawk]

Ouch… somehow it never registered in my brain that this was normal speed. Even on Monarch, warmongering across a big and small map at normal speed will not be a cakewalk. Maybe the best way to manage a warmongering approach would be to completely concentrate on war at first. Try to kill most AI’s, then switch to wonder building when we control the world. However, this feels like it will be a long road. Early warmongering and wonder building are normally mutually exclusive.

Actually, I’m starting to think culture might be a good option. As Harbourboy pointed out, if we are going to build lots of wonders, we will be getting lots of culture and GPPs. Feels to me like a natural synergy. Also, a culture attempt will not be dependent on being nice to AIs. We could build a relatively small late era army and backstab wonder-holding AI’s just before we pop our artists.

Of course, if we are on a pissant, desert-filled Gyathaar island, maybe culture will not be possible.

 

[The-Hawk]

Cross-post

Let's focus on optimum development and leave the VC until we know the general shape of what we are up against and the 7 leaders.

Yes, for sure. Early game is scout and REX. We should spend some time discussing first tech and first builds as well.

 

[erikthecelt]

First tech is fishing - after that, I want to see what we have found with our scouting.

 

[The-Hawk]

I'm leaning towards AH as 1st tech and worker as first build. I think the cows are the most important early tile... will give us 6 production for building settlers vs. 4 from the clams. Worker is followed by warriors while we research fishing. Then we build a couple of boats. Food is not an early priority unless we detour for BW and whipping. Once we are working the gold hill, we don't need lots of additional early pop.

In fact, I could be talked out of fishing until later. Depends if we want to try for Henge or Artemis. Maybe we go AH -> Myst -> Poly (to open Artemis) -> writing -> run for CS slingshot.

Of course, if we want the marble, we will need a galley...

 

[markh]

I would build a worker first while researching bw. Then warriors until gold is mined. Chop another worker and a settler to quickly build a second city.

Research : BW, AH, Myst

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Well now we know why hardly anyone has posted a save. Enjoy!

Spoiler View from the gold hill :

 

[markh]

How ugly !

I am torn whether to settle in place or move the settler.

I think I would settle in place. We can build a second city 1E of the scout later on. Hopefully the West looks better.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I'm leaning towards AH as 1st tech and worker as first build. I think the cows are the most important early tile... will give us 6 production for building settlers vs. 4 from the clams. Worker is followed by warriors while we research fishing. Then we build a couple of boats. Food is not an early priority unless we detour for BW and whipping. Once we are working the gold hill, we don't need lots of additional early pop.

In fact, I could be talked out of fishing until later. Depends if we want to try for Henge or Artemis. Maybe we go AH -> Myst -> Poly (to open Artemis) -> writing -> run for CS slingshot.

I would build a worker first while researching bw. Then warriors until gold is mined. Chop another worker and a settler to quickly build a second city.

The problem with settling in place is that we cannot access the water on both sides of the peninsula (if that's what it is) whereas we can if we settle the cows. Exploring with one or two WBs might be faster than scouts/warriors.

 

[The-Hawk]

How ugly !

Yep, I vote we send the scout the other way now.

The problem with settling in place is that we cannot access the water on both sides of the peninsula (if that's what it is) whereas we can if we settle the cows. Exploring with one or two WBs might be faster than scouts/warriors.

From your pic, it sure looks like a peninsula... a WB can get to the fish in 5 turns. If it is not, we can always build a fort on the grass 1SE of the current settler location to make a channel. We will be getting Math soon enough if we are going for CS slingshot.

 

[markh]

@Hawk : Does this mean you want to settle in place and send the worker West or waiting with settling until the scout revealed what is West ?

Even more now I would not settle on the cows.

 

[The-Hawk]

I would settle in place immediately. Nothing would pull me west away from the gold, except maybe two gems. Besides, as Erik noted, it looks like forest to the west, so we are a couple of turns away from revealing anything beyond our current BFC. I can't see waiting.

/edit: If we do ultimately find some nice stuff to the west... all the better. It will make for a strong second city.

/edit again: btw, the 2nd fish NE of marble means a city settled on the marble would be a decent GP farm.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

If it is not, we can always build a fort on the grass 1SE of the current settler location to make a channel.

I forgot about forts.

We will be getting Math soon enough if we are going for CS slingshot.

I didn't such things were feasible nowadays.

I would like to have some agreement from the team about what we're intending to do in terms of builds and tech paths before I continue playing.

 

[markh]

My vote :

Settle in place
Build a worker
Research bronze.

 

[The-Hawk]

My vote :

Settle in place
Build a worker
Research bronze.

I'm starting to think earlier BW might be appropriate if we decide to go for early wonders. However, I don't think it should be first. We will have a worker pop out with nothing to improve. If we immediately start another worker or settler (so he can chop them), our pop will not grow and we will be delayed working the gold. I don't think we should build a worker until we've researched AH so he can pasture the cows.

 

[markh]

I'm starting to think earlier BW might be appropriate if we decide to go for early wonders. However, I don't think it should be first. We will have a worker pop out with nothing to improve. If we immediately start another worker or settler (so he can chop them), our pop will not grow and we will be delayed working the gold. I don't think we should build a worker until we've researched AH so he can pasture the cows.

We are creative, so our borders will pop even earlier. Once the worker is finished he can mine the gold immediately. This worked very well in my test games.

 

[Harbourboy]

Can someone explain what they are talking about with the fort as a channel?

And why they think that starting position is ugly?

And why we would rule out culture as a victory type?