SGOTM 08 - One Short Straw

[ungy]

We have captured Shakas three core cities. Shaka has 3 more cities left (he built 1 more somewhere). Our next target should probably be the peninsular city once our forces down there have healed. Capturing this should open up trade routes with Jao. If he has no more cities down there we can then send the survivors to join our forces in his ex capital and attack the city to the NW. We will probably need a few more units to take down Shaka/garrison our cities which we can chop/whip in Shakas old capital. This would leave our capital free to focus on wonders like the MOM/Shedon Pagh/Collosus/Great Library. The mine city can build the Parthenon after the settler is built which I was intending to use to build the cow/iron/clam city.

this sounds like a good plan to me.

Gandi has built the Jewish shrine for us.

I was able to trade for monarchy from Jao so at least 1 more civ is in galley range, probably to the NW.

We have a Great General. Should we use this for a medic 3 unit or settler it in a production city ( I favour Shakas old capital).

AI have built 2 shrines, we have 1. Our only use for prophets is shrines. So 4 left. It's hard to imagine the AI won't build another so I would say 3 is our most likely target for prophets. We'll get one for sure on the island (and a second if we need it), and we've got a decent chance in the capital as well. So I think we should be OK there.

Unless I misremember, the AI will trade monopoly monarchy. So I don't think there is necessarily another AI.

I'm for settling the GG in Ulundi and making it the HE city. I don't think we have enough war left with Shaka to justify the medic--although we might want a regular medic.

 

[TDK]

Good play mdy.

We have captured Shakas three core cities. Shaka has 3 more cities left (he built 1 more somewhere). Our next target should probably be the peninsular city once our forces down there have healed. Capturing this should open up trade routes with Jao. If he has no more cities down there we can then send the survivors to join our forces in his ex capital and attack the city to the NW. We will probably need a few more units to take down Shaka/garrison our cities which we can chop/whip in Shakas old capital. This would leave our capital free to focus on wonders like the MOM/Shedon Pagh/Collosus/Great Library. The mine city can build the Parthenon after the settler is built which I was intending to use to build the cow/iron/clam city.

I agree with going for the peninsular city first in the hope of opening trade with Portugal.

I don't think MoM is a good idea in the capital. How about MoM in Mine City(whip settler now and overflow) and Parthenon in Ulundi(send worker to chop). Capital would be free to go Great Library, Colossus, Shedon Pagh and University.

We need to decide now on which 6 cities construct universities. I propose Capital, Mine City, new Iron/Cow/Clam City and the 3 Zulu cities.

TDK

 

[mdy]

The last citizen in mine city is only producing 1 commerce so I am O.K. with whiping it and starting the MOM there. I am also O.K. with chopping the Parthenon in Ulindi as long as we build a couple more units there first (maybe we could delay the barracks?). I agree that the Heroic Epic should probably go here, but it can wait till later.

If we go: Great Library-Collosus-Shedon Pagh we will have finished all 3 wonders before we have researched education, espesially if we research music first. This should be alright as we will be able to fit in the national epic/market/monastry/part of the University of Sankore first.

I agree with building the universities in the cities TDK suggested.

AI have built 2 shrines, we have 1. Our only use for prophets is shrines. So 4 left. It's hard to imagine the AI won't build another so I would say 3 is our most likely target for prophets. We'll get one for sure on the island (and a second if we need it), and we've got a decent chance in the capital as well. So I think we should be OK there.

Unless I misremember, the AI will trade monopoly monarchy. So I don't think there is necessarily another AI.

I'm for settling the GG in Ulundi and making it the HE city. I don't think we have enough war left with Shaka to justify the medic--although we might want a regular medic.

We already have a regular medic. I agree with saving a prophet for a shrine if we get one in the cpaital. If we get a merchant/scientist I think we should settle it. It might be better to save an engineer for a corporation.

I`ve checked in worldbuilder and your right about Jao being willing to trade monarchy when it is still a monopoly tech.

 

[mdy]

I think I need to set up another admin account--any idea how to do that?

You could try this:

Go to Control Panel then User Accounts and Family Safety then Add or Remove User Accounts. Then click on Create a new account. Type in a name for the user and make sure to select the Administrator option. Finally click on Create Account. You can then assign a password to it via the Create a password link.

 

[TDK]

I can play a bit tomorrow. I would proceed with the wonder approach above - with the corrections mdy suggested. Save engineer, delay barracks.

TDK

 

[mdy]

Go ahead TDK.

 

[TDK]

I played some more on the game, no major problems but we were delayed a bit at the southern city because it was at size 1.

I had to change computer because another user needed it, but then I got a Vista/HoF failure on the new computer and ended up "playing" Vista all evening instead of Civ. Will be back tomorrow with a full report.

TDK

 

[TDK]

I played some more.

No major problems, Zulus are dead but the last Impi did take down 2 of our axes by pure luck. I suggest we take our forces to Kushans, we can get a health and a happiness resource there.

We have 6 universities and I started Oxford, 4 turns to go on the GA. I suggest we revolt away from Slavery now, and away from OR in 3 turns when our Missionary and major construction is done. [Edit: We might want to whip Courthouse in Stone City]. Should we prepare an (Mace-Treb)invasion of Portugal? After we get trade routes with off-continent civs, they will be pretty useless.

I saved up some cash for us while we built universities, so we can burn those up if we want. I settled a Merchant in the capital and we now have some GP's in stock: 2 Prophets, 1 Engineer and 1 Merchant.

Tech path? I think it's time we get out in the world and meet the others, so beelining Astronomy looks tempting.

TDK

 

[mdy]

Great progress.

I agree with sending our surviving army to take Kushans, but we will probably need to build a settler to get the furs. Maybe we can build a temple in a minor city and build a confunicuan academy in the capital to solve future happiness problems there? Now we have a GE maybe we can fire the engineer and start working the plains cottage?

The Sistine Chapel is pretty useless for us but maybe we should build it if we run out of things to build in the capital.

I agree with doing an astronomy beeline next.

Why are we building a missionary in marble city? With the shrine it should spread to all our cities quick enough. We could build the Maori statues there in 15 turns.

I would revolt to caste system and pacifism the turn before the golden age ends. I think you still need to leve 4 turns between revolts on normal speed.

Could we settle the merchant in the capital? We only need 2 for corporations and we can get 1 with economics and we should be able to generate 1 more later. This would allow us to work every land tile in the capital and run 3 specialists.

I`m not sure if we should attack Jao, we won`t get any wonders and we should make contact with the other continent in about 20 turns. The most likely victory condition looks like domination. If so we may not need to attack Jao, or we could attack him last as the closest civ. On the other hand it might speed up our victory.

 

[TDK]

I agree with sending our surviving army to take Kushans, but we will probably need to build a settler to get the furs. Maybe we can build a temple in a minor city and build a confunicuan academy in the capital to solve future happiness problems there? Now we have a GE maybe we can fire the engineer and start working the plains cottage?

We just need 100 culture to grab the furs, that should be doable in about 10 turns under Caste System.

The Sistine Chapel is pretty useless for us but maybe we should build it if we run out of things to build in the capital.

I'm not to happy about that, I would rather invest in an army or even better, specialists.

Why are we building a missionary in marble city? With the shrine it should spread to all our cities quick enough. We could build the Maori statues there in 15 turns.

I'm not sure Maori is very good there, how many coast tiles are we realistically going to work in that city anyway. I was thinking of putting Maori in Canal City.
I started a missionary because I didn't see what else we needed in that city. We should send it to Portugal and hope Jao spreads it further.

I would revolt to caste system and pacifism the turn before the golden age ends. I think you still need to leve 4 turns between revolts on normal speed.

I first thought about going Free Religion, but now that I think of it, Pacifism would also be good in resolving what gp's we get sooner rather than later.

I think we should save the merchant for a golden age/corporation for now. I see it as hedging our bets. Even if we were to have one spare merchant later, a Golden Age is great for us, in part due to the double gp birth rate that gives us another chance of popping the right one. The same argument could be applied to our Engineer chances - one to few is a disaster, but one to many just gives us another chance to get the right one.

Right now we still need: 1 Engineer, 1 Artist, 1 Scientist, up to 2 prophets. So we still have a pretty good spread there. We might want to construct the Globe in Ulundi to have a spare GP farm in case we pop the wrong gp's in the capital.

I have a question, that National Park, how does it work? Is it just about having a zillion forests or what?

TDK

 

[Diamondeye]

Okay I guess someone has noticed this but I am rather inactive, very sorry. Would it hurt anyone if I went on perma-lurk (read: doesn't play turnsets)? I'll still peek in with advice now and then.

The NatPark grants a specialist for each forest preserve within BFC - without the 2 food upkeep (same way as GL, SoL, Merc). It can basically turn a forest area into goodieland. A nice usage of this lategame is with engineers from factories and industrial parks since the ciyu has plenty of health, and priests and scientist for the rest. Caste System is advised.

 

[TDK]

Ok Diamondeye. What is a forest preserve?

I thought some more about Free Religion/Pacifism. I am of the opinion that we should build an army to attack Portugal or an off-continent civ, so Pacifism will be very expensive here. Free religion seems even better if we take into consideration that we want to trade techs with the other civs, none of which are Confused.

TDK

 

[mdy]

A forest preserve can be built once you discover scientific method in jungle and forest tiles. It gives + 1 happiness in the nearby city, +1 commerce in tiles next to rivers and +2 commerce with enviromentalism.It also gives a +100% terrain spread chance. If the National Park is built in the city it also gives +1 specialist, but it is difficult to find a good location for it.

I'm not sure Maori is very good there, how many coast tiles are we realistically going to work in that city anyway. I was thinking of putting Maori in Canal City.
I started a missionary because I didn't see what else we needed in that city. We should send it to Portugal and hope Jao spreads it further.

Probably quite a lot. We can easily afford to fire 1 or more priests to boost growth.


We will get enough merchants to found all the corporations and probably 2 more goldern ages anyway. The best thing we can do with this one is to settle it, if we don`t we will waste a significant number of beakers/gold/food.

If we are going to war with Jao soon it may be better to leave the deer city till after we have defeated him. Ulundi would probably be better off with a heroic epic/west point combination than the globe theatre.

As we have a lot of gold stockpiled we could upgrade some of our most expierienced axes to macemen.

Pacifism has no civic upkeep which will partly offset the increase in unit support. The extra costs should be pretty small as we won`t have a very big army and +100% GPP will be massive for us.

The mine city and Ulundi should be able to build all the units we need for Jao espesially if we build the Heroic Epic in Ulundi first. What else do you suggest we build in the capital?

 

[TDK]

Probably quite a lot. We can easily afford to fire 1 or more priests to boost growth.

There's no better place to put it?

We will get enough merchants to found all the corporations and probably 2 more goldern ages anyway. The best thing we can do with this one is to settle it, if we don`t we will waste a significant number of beakers/gold/food.

Pacifism has no civic upkeep which will partly offset the increase in unit support. The extra costs should be pretty small as we won`t have a very big army and +100% GPP will be massive for us.

Maybe you are right if we run Pacifism all game. But is it worth it running Pacifism just to get a 3gp Golden Age? I don't have access to the game, but how many gp's do you think we generate under Pacifism? And Free Religion?
Pacifism also limits our tech trade ability, another argument for Free Religion.

The mine city and Ulundi should be able to build all the units we need for Jao espesially if we build the Heroic Epic in Ulundi first. What else do you suggest we build in the capital?

I'm not exactly against wonders in the capital, but we would get out an army earlier with it.
I also think that the biggest weakness in our GP program is the last engineer, so I suggest we keep the engineer specialist. We could stop working some of the mines to grow quicker and increase commerce.

TDK

 

[mdy]

There's no better place to put it?

We will get more hammers there than anywhere else where we can build it in a reasonable time. This would also be the best city for wall street as it has the shrine, and we will need a lot of hammers there to build it.

By my estimation Free religion will give us about 16 extra beakers, but cost about 7 (14 beakers) gold more than pacifism. We would also lose about 25 beakers (possibly more) from the University of Sankore, so we are about 23 beakers a turn better off with pacifism before considering the extra support for the military and the GPP bonus.

For an army of just over 30 units the extra cost should be about 20 gold around 1000A.D. This will probably cost about 40 beakers until we can get more markets/grocers/banks built, so overall the cost of pacifism is about 17 beakers per turn once our army is built. This will be outwayed by just 1 extra settled merchant/scientist in the capital, so our economy should easily be better off with pacifism. This also has the advantage of maximising our chances of getting a second engineer.

 

[TDK]

We will get more hammers there than anywhere else where we can build it in a reasonable time. This would also be the best city for wall street as it has the shrine, and we will need a lot of hammers there to build it.

I didn't think of the Kong Miao/Wall Sreet/Mauoi combo, that's a good idea.

By my estimation Free religion will give us about 16 extra beakers, but cost about 7 (14 beakers) gold more than pacifism. We would also lose about 25 beakers (possibly more) from the University of Sankore, so we are about 23 beakers a turn better off with pacifism before considering the extra support for the military and the GPP bonus.

For an army of just over 30 units the extra cost should be about 20 gold around 1000A.D. This will probably cost about 40 beakers until we can get more markets/grocers/banks built, so overall the cost of pacifism is about 17 beakers per turn once our army is built. This will be outwayed by just 1 extra settled merchant/scientist in the capital, so our economy should easily be better off with pacifism. This also has the advantage of maximising our chances of getting a second engineer.

We are looking at Optics in 4 turns here, how can we be sure to trade techs with the AI when we are reasonably sure that every other AI has another religion than ours? It would be even worse if we miss OB with off continent civs when we have Astro in 9 turns.
The University of Sankore is no good to us under Free Religion, but our religious buildings are pretty few and we are not likely to get more soon.

I agree with you that we could probably settle the merchant. I also agree that Pacifism is powerful and that we will probably switch to it later, depending on how lucky we get with our gp's.

TDK

 

[mdy]

I`m pretty certain one of the AI`s is Gandi. We should be able to trade open borders/maps and get all the techs we can trade for from him. We can probably get open borders with some other civs espesially if we gift a tech. Pacifism might mean we can`t sign an open borders agreement wth a civ, but I doubt this would outway the benefits of pacifism. Normally pacifism is stronger in the mid game and free religion becomes better in the end game.

 

[TDK]

I agree with you there's a good chance the one with 2 holy buildings is Gandhi, and he is probably the one we should attack first. He is usually weak on defense and the holy buildings will pay for the campaign and give us a base for further operations.

I still don't think Pacifism is very good for us right now. If we assume that we are close to winning the game in 100 turns at 45gpp/t(base) in the capital, we would get about 2 extra gp's from Pacifism(10 instead of 8). We could get one of the extra gp's easily if we change to Pacifism later during a Golden Age, so on balance I think Free Religion is better due to the Diplomatic risks of Conf.

TDK

 

[mdy]

Whilst we can probably win in 100 turns it may be better to delay it so we can build more wonders. Pacifism also generates GPs earlier than we would otherwise get them. Depending on the situation it may be better to keep Gandi alive for longer so we can trade with him.

 

[llib_rm]

Wouldn't it be best to quickly get a caravel & scout (or two) to gather intel on our unknown neighbors? Once we know what's out there we should be able to map out an end-game strategy. As such, I like the Free Religion approach to aid OB and leave Jao/Pacifism for later. I am not certain how much tech trading will be worth our while.

BTW, I am able to play over the next two weeks. Please place me into the queue when it seems best. -Thanks.