SGOTM 08 - One Short Straw

[TheMeInTeam]

No...I just had to uninstall BUG. I haven't tried reinstalling it as just a loadable mod, but I'd imagine doing that and then using either HOF or BUG by loading one or the other would work fine.

It wasn't necessary for me to reinstall civ at all so I doubt you'd need to either.

 

[ungy]

In thinking about this a little it's pretty clear to me that the VC will either be
conquest or dom (with a diplo-dom an outside possibility). Seems like we won't want to leave any wonders with the AI and usually they tend to build a wonder or two.

I did some very rough estimates of possible victory dates and the number of wonders likely at that date:

There are 62 total wonders, inc palace, shrines, nat wonders and corps. All count equally.

I broke the wonders down into 5 groups--
ancient (up to aesthetics)=10
medieval=12 (up to music)
renaissane=7 (up to edu/mt)
ind =10 (up to medicine/elec)
modern=15 all the rest.

A very rough guess of 5 speed conquest games:

very fast=1000AD finish
medium= 1500AD
slow =1750 AD
very slow =1850
milk =1900.

BC=115 turns
0-1000 =50 turns.
1000-1500 =50 turns
1500-1750=50 turns
1750-1850=50 turns?
1850-1900= 50 turns?

A ballpark guess for wonders:

the very fast game--10 ancient wonders+6 medieval+3 shrine=19/165 turns.

medium--10 ancient, 12 medieval, 5 ren, 5 shrine=32/215 turns.

slow--29 through ren, 8 ind+modern, 6 shrine =43/265 turns

very slow add 8 to slow =51/315 turns.

milk=get all 62 =62/365 turns.

Now these are very rough estimates but it seems pretty clear that a fastest finish is not the way to go. Something around 1 wonder/6 turns or maybe 1 wonder/5 should be what we're shooting for. Hard to imagine much better than 1 wonder/5 turns.

At monarch we will have to research most of these techs ourselves. Diplomacy will be important--if we can get a builder type to friendly we can get some tech in trade by aggressively gifting them stuff to help them keep up.

So I would think a standard early development strategy should be appropriate. Probably the big early decision we need to make is if we want to go for a wonder.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The problem with the above analysis is that on monarch, it may be very easy to go "speed conquest" until you get a very controlling amount of land pre 1k or at 1k ish, then switch into "milk" mode, blasting out wonders left and right...probably ending the domination by taking military beelines at the remaining non-player wonders.

I've got some things on my plate but I'm going to run at least 2-3 test games for this before the end of this coming monday. I'll note the wonder dates and try maybe 1 wonderspam game, one kind of standard, and one that runs for fast conquest followed up by gunning for wonders via tech + land lead.

 

[mdy]

A speed conquest would most likley leave our economy in a mess. While we would recover it would take a a long time. If we are not on the main landmass it could even be impossible.

Building most of the wonders ourselves would remove these problems, and open up the possibility of a quick/long diplo victory. I might try a test game as well.

Ungy did you include corporations in your analysis?

 

[ungy]

A speed conquest would most likley leave our economy in a mess. While we would recover it would take a a long time. If we are not on the main landmass it could even be impossible.

Building most of the wonders ourselves would remove these problems, and open up the possibility of a quick/long diplo victory. I might try a test game as well.

Ungy did you include corporations in your analysis?

yes but the analysis was very superficial.

I suspect we will have to build most of the later wonders ourselves.
I think ideally we'd leave a bunch of the useless middle ones for a partner--then absorb the partner at the end.

 

[Diamondeye]

Okay I'll try and work around a bit with my mods and see i I can work this out. So far discussion seems good

 

[TDK]

Checking in.

I think the best way is a Permanent Alliance with an Industrious civ. We could boost that for eventual PA and in doing so avoid maintenance for a large empire.

What about Vassals? Will their wonders count?

National wonders? National wonders of PA partner/Vassals?

TDK

 

[ungy]

Checking in.

I think the best way is a Permanent Alliance with an Industrious civ. We could boost that for eventual PA and in doing so avoid maintenance for a large empire.

What about Vassals? Will their wonders count?

National wonders? National wonders of PA partner/Vassals?

TDK

are PA on?
I don't believe vassal wonders count (and also wouldn't be sure about PA partners-we could verify that in the wonder score of a game).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

PA isn't on as far as I can tell in the game settings - so no marble throwing gambits for us.

Edit - unless it's our neighbor, who has a target on his/her chest .

 

[Diamondeye]

I believe I read somewhere that PA is ON, but I'm not sure. Besides PA is @ Fascism, way too late?

 

[mdy]

PA`s are definatly off, and any wonders our vassels have will not count.

 

[Diamondeye]

Okay, nice to know. I remember the ICS where we played on Deity and suddenly realized PAs were off when we had gotten Pacal to friendly .

Anyway, I've removed my BUG and I should be able to run HOF so no troubles there .

 

[Levgre]

big and small means that naval combat will be very useful for conquering since the AI doesn't deal with it well... we can raze most cities for quick conquest if we want while just keeping the best ones and ones with wonders, since I don't think we will be going that far up the tech tree. So I'm not that worried about over expansion and economy. Although radio etc. has lots of wonders, so maybe we will win domination/conquest at that point?

We will also need Astronomy for conquest/domination... I don't know what techs need to be delayed to bulb astronomy... but maybe we should consider that.


Here's something I am curious about. Are all wonders equal when it comes to points? I am guessing no. We should figure out the point values to see how many points various tech routes give.

 

[Levgre]

I didn`t keep any gold in reserve until I got the GP, but we might want to in case we get any random events.

There are not many random events early on that require gold, except for ones that save improvements from being destroyed (not worth stockpiling in itself). I think it would be safe to wait at least that long.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Game 1: I went with my Q choke here to get more settling space without actually capturing cities or killing units. Wonder times:

SH - Turn 41
GW - Turn 62
Oracle - 625 BC
Temple of Solomon - 250 BC
Colossus - 125 BC
ToA - 125 BC
GLH - 100 BC

Edit: All built by AI.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Game 2:

Henge: 1920 BC
GW: 1080 BC
Oracle: 625 BC
Mids: 500 BC
TOA: 75 BC
GLH: 540 AD (seriously)
Kong Miao: 680 AD
Chichen Itza: 680 AD
Hindu Shrine: 720 AD
Statue of Zeus: 780 AD
Angkor Wat: 840 AD
Colossus: 960 AD (and I built it arbitrarily)
Parthenon: 1000 AD
TGL: 1030 (this too - note that there was 0 marble on the entire map in this one)
Paya: 1100 AD
AP: 1110 AD
Notre Dame: 1130 AD
Dai Miao: 1140 AD
Hanging Gardens: 1140 AD
Sistine: 1160 AD
Sankore: 1180 AD
Minaret: 1210 AD

In this one I wasn't pressing for wonders - I wound up getting Colossus, Oracle, TGL, Confuc. Shrine, and Notre Dame

The interesting thing about this one is that I spawned in the island region, which is almost never isolated in B & S but allows for some really powerful early commerce, even without GLH. Hell, just settling an island city off the coast (2 after currency) doubles up your trade route income. I ran away in tech bigtime without even trying.

This forces me to change my recommendation to align with ungy - we're best off settling 8-12 cities peacefully (or choking if we must), then teching until probably renaissance. From there we can capture all the wonders we want, probably with a unit like cavalry which can just mow through lesser AIs. Then milk, IMO.

We can wait even longer but IMO the Cavalry will have enough odds and is 2 move - probably the fastest conquest possible until tanks/aircraft.

 

[mdy]

We can wait even longer but IMO the Cavalry will have enough odds and is 2 move - probably the fastest conquest possible until tanks/aircraft.

As our limitation will be the time needed to build the later wonders, not the speed of conquest, the extra movement point of the cavalry may not be that useful. Grenadiers/cannons may be a more effective combination for the first wars. Some AI`s are bound to get rifling before we can destroy them which would be a problem for cavalry, but not grenadiers.

This forces me to change my recommendation to align with ungy - we're best off settling 8-12 cities peacefully (or choking if we must), then teching until probably renaissance. From there we can capture all the wonders we want, probably with a unit like cavalry which can just mow through lesser AIs. Then milk, IMO.

This may be the best strategy if we build the key early wonders, but given our limited knowledge of the map it is difficult to be sure what our long term strategy should be. Maybe we should play the first turnset now?


It looks like animal husbandry-fishing and worker-warrior will get our capital going quickest.

We will also need Astronomy for conquest/domination... I don't know what techs need to be delayed to bulb astronomy... but maybe we should consider that.


Here's something I am curious about. Are all wonders equal when it comes to points? I am guessing no. We should figure out the point values to see how many points various tech routes give.
Sep 13, 2008 08:15 PM

I don`t think a beeline for astro is worth it in this situation. We would get more beakers by settling the GS, and we don`t need a super early astro as we will need to build several of the later wonders before winning. It would also mean avoiding Civil Service and mean we probably could not build several important early wonders e.g The Great Lighthouse.

All wonders/shrines/national wonders/corportions have the same score.

 

[Diamondeye]

An important note on teching: Make sure not to obsolete a wonder not yet built (obviously)

 

[ungy]

I wasn't able to get the save to download properly--I thought I did the vista fix stuff.

I'm pretty convinced we want a balanced expansion as especially with the wonder dates TMIT got the AI just won't build them fast enough--and that was a peaceful game.

For this type of game I think the value of the GLH is just huge. From the looks of the map we may very well have domestic intercontinental trade routes very early, and the wonder pays and pays for a long time.

Anyway I think AH-fishing is a good start along with worker-warrior followed presumably by workboats.

I'm game for someone to take the first set and play a bit so we get a better lay of the land.

 

[Diamondeye]

I can't play the next couple of days (not until Wednesday, probably Thur), so I suggest that TheMeInTeam plays the first round. We should be playing for:

Moderate expansion (not tanking the econ too much, but still grabbing land. Preferably towards AIs/Stone or Marble/Overseas),

The Great Lighthouse (simply overpowered on water maps), and hence

Early Masonry (for GLH, Quarries and other wonders).

As far as I can see this matches the start rather well as we start with Marble off our coast - two birds with one stone (perhaps even three - intercontinental trade, marble and Masonry?).