SGOTM 08 - XTeam

[leif erikson]

Here's the proposed plan for turns 38 and following:

Capture worker and follow rough outline prepared by SCT, including sending scout west, warrior to cows, and worker home to help pasture the cows in one turn. Will research Writing and then Math, followed by Mysticism and Meditation.

Intend to adjust SCT’s plan to get another warrior out immediately (to get worker home safely and then go monitor the horses), which will delay founding of PHcity one turn; however, this will enable building the library two turns sooner and getting to pop5 and a scientist on turn 46, Math on turn 53. If all goes without complications, I’ll put us on track to get an Academy on 65 and the Oracle on turn 70 (and the pig city founded on 66).

Specifically:
In capital . . . Settler for one turn, then complete warrior the next, and back to settler; then skip workboat for now and start on library immediately after settler, followed by warrior and then workboat for northern exploration.
In PHcity, warrior and then begin workboat for southern exploration, switch to axe when copper connected, and then complete wkbt.
Will be connecting ivory camp, just in time for pop5, second warrior for pop6, and gold for pop7.

Let's do it!!

Interesting power graph for Unusual Suspects...
Going after Shaka?

 

[Mad Professor]

Let's do it!!

I agree.

Interesting power graph for Unusual Suspects...
Going after Shaka?

I'd say so - and well before building wonders... Perhaps they have a "capture all the early wonders and use the bigger empire to build all the later wonders" strategy? I think I like our approach better. Misfits and Geezers also have a military build up now, but much later. Consistent with building some early wonders before getting rid of Shaka.

 

[rrau]

good luck.

 

[Cactus Pete]

SGOTM08 REPORT FOR TURNS 38-44BC WE HAVE A PROBLEM

38 (2480BC): move worker onto forest

IBT: Stonehenge built in a faraway land

39: Declare war and capture worker (nothing revealed but forests); move scout west; initiate development sequence as practiced – switch settler to warrior.

40: Scout reveals lions and hut; warrior sent west, settler build continues; 2 archers in Ulundi. [for future reference – grassland 2E of horses roaded for one turn]

41: Lions defeat scout [bad luck, as hut cannot be taken advantage of]

42: Settler founds PHcity, which begins another warrior; Writing comes in (start Math) and library begun; warrior moves onto cows and reveals a mined (though not yet roaded) copper hill 2N1E of Ulundi and an archer shows 1E of city threatening to box warrior in on coast. Guess Slavery does not indicate research on BW just completed!

43: Inexplicably Zulu archer does not move to cut off warrior, so I move him onto forested hill hoping to initiate combat at an advantage but find archer must have returned to city

44: Archer remains in city . . .

So, a decision needs to be made on whether to leave warrior on hill or move him across river between city and copper. I'm skeptical that we can keep the copper from being hooked up before we can get an axe to the area, but we may be able to delay it and keep Shaka's forces occupied long enough to get first a hopefully troublesome warrior and then an axe to the horses. Shaka may have several workers by now. Incidentally, I have not yet altered our development plan. It remains on track; however, stopping for consultation would seem appropriate . . .

Here is the save (I think). http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=190881&stc=1&d=1223532752

 

[Mad Professor]

Looks on track to me, CP!

41: Lions defeat scout [bad luck, as hut cannot be taken advantage of]

Yes. Shame that. Never mind. We may yet have a chance to pop that hut later if we can keep Shaka off it.

42: Settler founds PHcity, which begins another warrior; Writing comes in (start Math) and library begun; warrior moves onto cows and reveals a mined (though not yet roaded) copper hill 2N1E of Ulundi and an archer shows 1E of city threatening to box warrior in on coast. Guess Slavery does not indicate research on BW just completed!

Not necessarily. My guess at what happened was that Shaka mined that hill before he knew there was copper there. Bad luck for us, it's true, but I think that's what it is.

So, a decision needs to be made on whether to leave warrior on hill or move him across river between city and copper. I'm skeptical that we can keep the copper from being hooked up before we can get an axe to the area, but we may be able to delay it and keep Shaka's forces occupied long enough to get first a hopefully troublesome warrior and then an axe to the horses. Shaka may have several workers by now. Incidentally, I have not yet altered our development plan. It remains on track; however, stopping for consultation would seem appropriate . . .

But Shaka now has no worker right? So he can't road that copper without first building a worker. If we can park the warrior on or near the copper and the archer is going to stay in the city, I think we have a good chance of keeping him from hooking it up for a while. I can't see the map since I can't open the save to confirm this.

 

[leif erikson]

SGOTM08 REPORT FOR TURNS 38-44BC WE HAVE A PROBLEM

Looks on track to me, CP!

I agree with MP, looks pretty good to me.

41: Lions defeat scout [bad luck, as hut cannot be taken advantage of]

That was too bad. Would like to have had that hut! If it is popped later, we'll know someone is out there.

Guess Slavery does not indicate research on BW just completed!

Not necessarily. My guess at what happened was that Shaka mined that hill before he knew there was copper there. Bad luck for us, it's true, but I think that's what it is.

Again, I agree with MP. Looking at the terrain and all the forests, there doesn't seem to be too many places a Worker would be of use before Bronze Working.

So, a decision needs to be made on whether to leave warrior on hill or move him across river between city and copper. I'm skeptical that we can keep the copper from being hooked up before we can get an axe to the area, but we may be able to delay it and keep Shaka's forces occupied long enough to get first a hopefully troublesome warrior and then an axe to the horses. Shaka may have several workers by now. Incidentally, I have not yet altered our development plan. It remains on track; however, stopping for consultation would seem appropriate . . .

Given the number of forests that are in his bfc, it seems to me that his research will be hampered. Zulu's start with Agriculture and Hunting. We know he has researched Mining and Bronze Working. His bfc seems to have little commerce value and we'll have to see what else is in the remaining 3 tiles northwest of his capital. I wonder if he has researched The Wheel yet?

But Shaka now has no worker right? So he can't road that copper without first building a worker. If we can park the warrior on or near the copper and the archer is going to stay in the city, I think we have a good chance of keeping him from hooking it up for a while. I can't see the map since I can't open the save to confirm this.

The Zulu's get a 25% bonus when building Workers, so with a +6 tile to have a citizen working, it shouldn't take too long to build another.

I think we need to move that Warior towards the Copper. If we move to the NW, his Archer will have to attack us in forest and across a river.
Or we can move north first and then onto the copper hill. If he does have Wheel and there is a road to the capital, then our Warrior may not survive to take out the copper.

Seems like our chances are better to move NW and at least see what else is there and hope for a win should we be attacked. Then we will know whether we need to prioritize an Axe.

Keep up the good work CP!

 

[ShannonCT]

Not necessarily. My guess at what happened was that Shaka mined that hill before he knew there was copper there. Bad luck for us, it's true, but I think that's what it is.

I think you must be right MP. I think my testing was pretty definitive in showing that Shaka adopts Slavery right after BW. If Shaka was chopping a forest rather than hooking the copper, he must not have Wheel yet.

I think we need to move that Warior towards the Copper. If we move to the NW, his Archer will have to attack us in forest and across a river. Or we can move north first and then onto the copper hill. If he does have Wheel and there is a road to the capital, then our Warrior may not survive to take out the copper.

Seems like our chances are better to move NW and at least see what else is there and hope for a win should we be attacked. Then we will know whether we need to prioritize an Axe.

We should move north first and then NW onto the copper. The copper isn't hooked right now. There are coast tiles north of the capital. Warrior should pillage the copper mine, and then fortify 1S of the copper to get the max defensive bonus against an attacking archer. Our second warrior can head that way and either go for the hut or reinforce the first warrior.

This is actually a good opportunity for us to get ahead of other teams. Any team that didn't invade Zululand as early as we did is going to be facing axemen and impi.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I think you must be right MP. I think my testing was pretty definitive in showing that Shaka adopts Slavery right after BW. If Shaka was chopping a forest rather than hooking the copper, he must not have Wheel yet. Concur.

We should move north first and then NW onto the copper. But suppose an archer moves toward the copper, then he could kill our warrior after he moves onto the hill but before he can pillage. The copper isn't hooked right now. There are coast tiles north of the capital. Warrior should pillage the copper mine, and then fortify 1S of the copper to get the max defensive bonus against an attacking archer. Our second warrior can head that way and either go for the hut or reinforce the first warrior.

This is actually a good opportunity for us to get ahead of other teams. Any team that didn't invade Zululand as early as we did is going to be facing axemen and impi.

Hope you're right. I think it's going to be tough to keep him from hooking up.

 

[leif erikson]

But suppose an archer moves toward the copper, then he could kill our warrior after he moves onto the hill but before he can pillage.

Or worse, he gets an Archer on the mined hill before we can get there. That is why I was thinking about going NW first, hoping to force a fight at best odds to us?

Hope you're right. I think it's going to be tough to keep him from hooking up.

Can we get an Axe out earlier without delaying Oracle at turn 70? Perhaps delay the Settler in our Capitol?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Or worse, he gets an Archer on the mined hill before we can get there. He can't do that even if we move north instead of NW next turn, but that's why we should move our warrior N or NW this turn. That is why I was thinking about going NW first, hoping to force a fight at best odds to us? I don't really want to fight, even if good odds, but if Shaka now has 3 archers in his city (can't know this, but it is increasingly likely with each passing turn) then I think he will come after the warrior. The question is: Would he attack across the river? I think he willwiththree archers, so we are very likely to lose the warrior once three archers are available/ It's just a matter of how much of a delay he can cause first.

Can we get an Axe out earlier without delaying Oracle at turn 70? Perhaps delay the Settler in our Capitol?

Considering, instead, using only two workers to pasture cows (which would delay growth in PHcity one turn) and getting copper hooked up a turn sooner. Also, if it becomes evident that Shaka is going to get UUs and chariots, then delaying workboats to build spear and axe would seem unfortunate but prudent.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Or worse, he gets an Archer on the mined hill before we can get there. He can't do that even if we move north rather than NW next turn. That is why I was thinking about going NW first, hoping to force a fight at best odds to us? I don't really want to fight, even if good odds, but if Shaka now has 3 archers in his city (can't know this, but it is increasingly likely with each passing turn) then I think he will come after the warrior. The question is: Would he attack across the river?

Can we get an Axe out earlier without delaying Oracle at turn 70? Perhaps delay the Settler in our Capitol?

Considering, instead, using only two workers to pasture cows (which would delay growth in PHcity one turn) and getting copper hooked up a turn sooner. Also, if it becomes evident that Shaka is going to get UUs and chariots, then delaying workboats to build spear and axe would seem unfortunate but prudent.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Like to know if playing again in about ten hours is acceptable.

 

[ShannonCT]

But suppose an archer moves toward the copper, then he could kill our warrior after he moves onto the hill but before he can pillage.

I was thinking we should try to avoid a fight until we can at least pillage the copper and set him back. I believe an archer would have something like a 35% chance of killing our warrior even attacking cross river.

Do you know how many archers he has in/around his capital? The power graph seems to be indicating that he has built three archers in addition to the one he started with. If two of them are accompanying a settler somewhere, the two left in the capital would be unlikely to attack. If there are three archers in the capital, one would probably attack and another finish us off even if we won the first battle.

I think we should do whatever gives us the best chance of pillaging the copper right away. With no other improved land tiles, hitting the copper will really set back his archer production. So whatever you think gives us the best chance, go for it.

One other note about the power graph: the last spike is just the right size to be the Wheel. There's no time to lose.

 

[ShannonCT]

I don't really want to fight, even if good odds, but if Shaka now has 3 archers in his city (can't know this, but it is increasingly likely with each passing turn) then I think he will come after the warrior. The question is: Would he attack across the river?

Shaka has a high attack courage, so assume he would attack across the river with three archers in the capital.

Considering, instead, using only two workers to pasture cows (which would delay growth in PHcity one turn) and getting copper hooked up a turn sooner. Also, if it becomes evident that Shaka is going to get UUs and chariots, then delaying workboats to build spear and axe would seem unfortunate but prudent.

If our warrior's move N or NW this turn goes unchallenged by Shaka IBT, I think we can stick to the 4-worker cow pasture sequence. It takes 10 turns for a worker to hook the copper if we are able to pillage it. So even if he got started right away, our axeman would be on the scene a few turns after hooking it, not to mention our second warrior.

If Shaka is going to be able to hook copper or horses, then most certainly we should prioritize unhooking over an exploratory workboat.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I was thinking we should try to avoid a fight until we can at least pillage the copper and set him back. Understand, but if an archer moves toward the copper, we are unlikely to be able to do so.I believe an archer would have something like a 35% chance of killing our warrior even attacking cross river. Yes, but he's a big favorite if he attacked him on the copper hill.

Do you know how many archers he has in/around his capital? He had two, two turns ago, then he brought one out of city (and then back in). Would he possibly do that if he had only two archers in the city? The power graph seems to be indicating that he has built three archers in addition to the one he started with. If two of them are accompanying a settler somewhere, the two left in the capital would be unlikely to attack. If there are three archers in the capital, one would probably attack and another finish us off even if we won the first battle. Yes.

I think we should do whatever gives us the best chance of pillaging the copper right away. With no other improved land tiles, hitting the copper will really set back his archer production. Don't follow this. It's a desert hill mine, so doesn't if give the same hammers as a forested hill. So whatever you think gives us the best chance, go for it. I'm trying to figure that out, and it's not obvious.

One other note about the power graph: the last spike is just the right size to be the Wheel. There's no time to lose.

I figured he'd built another archer. Thanks for the insight.

 

[ShannonCT]

Understand, but if an archer moves toward the copper, we are unlikely to be able to do so. Yes, but he's a big favorite if he attacked him on the copper hill.

Yes, if Shaka was smart, he'd send an archer toward the copper next turn and kill our warrior if we stepped on it. Is he that smart? The last few turns suggest no. Maybe the archer retreated to the capital in anticipation of sending out a settler. If Shaka only has two archers in the capital now, we're probably safe either way; CITY_DEFENSE archers don't take big risks. If he has three archers in the capital, I fear for the safety of our warrior moving NW.

He had two, two turns ago, then he brought one out of city (and then back in). Would he possibly do that if he had only two archers in the city?

I'm betting that the archer you saw was in addition to the two defenders. I don't think he would leave a single archer in a city with our warrior so close. But since this is the time around when a coastal AI would be sending out a settler, perhaps that archer has left the area.

Don't follow this. It's a desert hill mine, so doesn't if give the same hammers as a forested hill.

It's a plains hill copper mine; that's six hammers, as good as it gets. The next best hammer tiles he has are worth two hammers.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Yes, if Shaka was smart, he'd send an archer toward the copper next turn and kill our warrior if we stepped on it. Is he that smart? The last few turns suggest no. Maybe the archer retreated to the capital in anticipation of sending out a settler. If Shaka only has two archers in the capital now, we're probably safe either way; CITY_DEFENSE archers don't take big risks. If he has three archers in the capital, I fear for the safety of our warrior moving NW. Okay, I'll move north. If an archer moves toward the copper, would you move onto it or retreat to the forested hill?

I'm betting that the archer you saw was in addition to the two defenders. I don't think he would leave a single archer in a city with our warrior so close. But since this is the time around when a coastal AI would be sending out a settler, perhaps that archer has left the area. Let's hope so.

It's a plains hill copper mine; that's six hammers, as good as it gets. The next best hammer tiles he has are worth two hammers.

Okay, that makes it easy decision to sacrifice the warrior to pillage, if the choice presents itself.

 

[ShannonCT]

Okay, I'll move north. If an archer moves toward the copper, would you move onto it or retreat to the forested hill?

Forested hill I'd say - don't want to just throw the warrior away.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I'm good to go, then.
BTW, in my practice games Shaka built multiple workers, so he might be able to connect his copper in, say, 7 turns after pillaging

 

[killercane]

If you can just harass Shaka from a forest hill that should buy us time. I cant see any screenshots but pillaging and losing the warrior does not do any good. Glad we stole that worker! Now we just have to keep him from building anything other than archers for the next 30 some odd turns and we will be on easy street.